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Re: [Authentic_SCA] 2nd Crusades

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  • Marianne Perdomo
    Hello! I have no evidence for this, but it just occurred to me that what you d carry in your bag/scrip would be the most personal things. If you were with an
    Message 1 of 15 , Mar 3 1:07 AM
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      Hello!

      I have no evidence for this, but it just occurred to me that what you'd
      carry in your bag/scrip would be the most personal things. If you were with
      an army I'd say chances are there'd be pack animals to carry anything
      bulkier. Many pilgrims also traveled in groups - perhaps they had pack
      animals, too, or could hire them. If you were on your own you probably still
      travelled lightly by keeping to the bare necessities and buying or stealing
      whatever else you needed on the way (replacement for worn-out shoes, for
      example).

      Alas I'd never seen this kind of details in what I have read. The only
      documentation hint I have is a book on European medieval trade routes which
      said that businessmen usually arranged transportation for goods
      bought/carried to be sold at inns. As I understood it, a businessman may
      leave Florence with X goods, going to Bruges in Flanders by land. He'd be
      hiring different transport services along the way. These were usually
      arranged with the help of innkeepers.

      Any evidence or thoughts for/against this idea?

      Of course our situation is often different, as we need to carry our things
      and have no pack animals, generally...

      Cheers!


      Leonor


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Labhaoise
      When I was reading about Elianor of Aquitaine, they did speak to it. Many of the Ladies had extensive trains of belongings at the beginning of the journey to
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 3 7:39 AM
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        When I was reading about Elianor of Aquitaine, they did speak to it. Many of the Ladies had extensive trains of belongings at the beginning of the journey to the crusades, which, when times got tough, got dumped by the way... These goods were also comandeered and used by the king to negotiate places to camp, food for the way, etc....

        Of course, people themselves were used as a rate of exchange, and left behind!
        Labhaoise


        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Marianne Perdomo <marianne@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello!
        >
        > I have no evidence for this, but it just occurred to me that what you'd
        > carry in your bag/scrip would be the most personal things. If you were with
      • Marianne Perdomo
        2010/3/3 Labhaoise ... Exactly, also armies elsewhere... What I ve never read is what smaller bands of more normal travellers
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 3 10:21 AM
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          2010/3/3 Labhaoise <labhaoise_obeachain@...>

          > When I was reading about Elianor of Aquitaine, they did speak to it. Many
          > of the Ladies had extensive trains of belongings at the beginning of the
          > journey to the crusades, which, when times got tough, got dumped by the
          > way... These goods were also comandeered and used by the king to negotiate
          > places to camp, food for the way, etc....
          >

          Exactly, also armies elsewhere... What I've never read is what smaller bands
          of more normal travellers would do. But it makes sense to me that they'd do
          something similar, though on a smaller scale. I think there's several
          account of pilgrimages (like Margery Kempe's IIRC) where pilgrims would join
          in a group. What I'm not sure is the extent of their traveling arrangements.

          At some point I've been thinking how one may do a pilgrimage medievally... I
          think the solution would have to lie in traveling very lightly. Mantle, hat
          and water gourd on your walking staff. Money bag, perhaps some notes or a
          map for guidance, a shirt to change into while you wash the one you're
          wearing,...Not sure what else would be indispensable. A knife, probably, but
          if you managed to get proper food you would probably get your bowl and glass
          at the inn/wherever you ate. And if your shoes wore out you'd just get them
          mended or get new ones. It'd explain why they never show big bags/packs in
          such circumstances. Have I missed anything?

          Interesting theme, this. :)


          Leonor


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • George A. Trosper
          ... I am strangely pleased to discover that I m doing something mildly disreputable--but annoyed that my method is anachronistic. Regrettably, my mug s
          Message 4 of 15 , Mar 3 11:08 AM
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            Robert Van Rens wrote:
            > He would NOT have carried a mug on a strap at his belt. No one did - this is a modern anachronism with no evidence that it is based in historical practice. Drinking from a small jug (modernly a mug) is pretty vulgar, and there's not a lot of visual evidence for it this early. It was the kind of thing men did in taverns, or soldiers on campaign, or similar disreputable folks.
            I am strangely pleased to discover that I'm doing something mildly
            disreputable--but annoyed that my method is anachronistic. Regrettably,
            my mug's chainmail-with-fake-jewels strap wasn't based on period visual
            evidence either. Now that I"m not carrying cigarettes and a lighter, I
            suspect it will fit in my belt pouch along with the car keys, 20th-c.
            wallet, bag for the rings, etc.

            I *have* seen visual evidence that tucking one's gloves into the belt is
            period.

            More on the original question:

            * It occurs to me that if you've got a sword and a knife, you'll carry
            sharpening equipment. I'd figure a whetstone and one or more oily
            cloths--presumably in a little oil-proof bag--but I may well need to
            stand corrected on this point, too.

            * While no D&D backpack would be complete without a length of rope, I
            don't know if it makes sense for our 2nd-Crusade armsman. But
            flint-&-steel seems reasonable.

            * If your boy already has a metal flask, or other too-fancy gear, he
            doesn't need to have afforded it. That's what foraging (aka looting) is
            for, and/or gifts from one's liege.
          • Quokkaqueen
            ... There were leather cases that cups were placed inside: 15-16th century French:
            Message 5 of 15 , Mar 3 10:52 PM
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              <<snip>>
              > From my research the whole "Mug on the belt" thing is a modern concept
              <<snip>>

              There were leather cases that cups were placed inside:

              15-16th century French:
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/medievalandrenaissance/3746015890/
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/medievalandrenaissance/3745287445/
              http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O127927/cup-case-and/

              15-16th century German case (glass itself is earlier)
              http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/mi01636f01a.jpg

              15th century English case (glass is earlier)
              http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O3311/beaker-and-case-the-luck-of-edenhall/

              What might be just a guess from the Victoria & Albert Museum, is the idea that the case 'could be carried on a belt for convenience' or the 'thong might be used to tie a small case to a belt for convenience.' (From vam.ac.uk and the flickr descriptions, respectively.) So there is a vague chance that a cup - in a case- might be a plausible way to carry a cup in the 15th and 16th centuries. It is significantly different to the near-universally worn tankard on a leather strap, but I'd suggest the concept itself is likely.

              But this is much, much later than the 12th century and the time of the second Crusade.

              ~Asfridhr
            • Labhaoise
              the Coilition of Historical Treckers might have info... http://www.coht.org/ Labhaoise
              Message 6 of 15 , Mar 4 6:59 AM
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                the Coilition of Historical Treckers might have info...
                http://www.coht.org/
                Labhaoise

                Marianne Perdomo <marianne@...> wrote:
                > Exactly, also armies elsewhere... What I've never read is what smaller bands
                > of more normal travellers would do. But it makes sense to me that they'd do
                > something similar, though on a smaller scale. I think there's several
                > account of pilgrimages (like Margery Kempe's IIRC) where pilgrims would join
                > in a group. What I'm not sure is the extent of their traveling arrangements.
              • Chris Laning
                ... As far as I know, the tankard on a leather strap hanging from a belt has purely practical modern roots -- I believe it was invented at Renaissance Faires
                Message 7 of 15 , Mar 4 7:47 AM
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                  On Mar 3, 2010, at 10:52 PM, Quokkaqueen wrote:

                  > So there is a vague chance that a cup - in a case- might be a
                  > plausible way to carry a cup in the 15th and 16th centuries. It is
                  > significantly different to the near-universally worn tankard on a
                  > leather strap, but I'd suggest the concept itself is likely.


                  As far as I know, the tankard on a leather strap hanging from a belt
                  has purely practical modern roots -- I believe it was invented at
                  Renaissance Faires in California, where having a cup always within
                  reach is helpful in encouraging people to drink enough water and stay
                  hydrated during a long and very hot day outdoors. Hikers sometimes
                  carry a cup hooked to their belt for similar reasons.

                  ____________________________________________________________

                  O (Dame) Christian de Holacombe, OL - Shire of Windy Meads
                  + Kingdom of the West - Chris Laning <claning@...>
                  http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com
                  ____________________________________________________________
                • Ynes de Toledo
                  ... You may be interested in this site, the blog of a girl who travelled the Santiago pilgrimage way from Turin in nearly entirely medieval kit
                  Message 8 of 15 , Mar 4 10:48 AM
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                    > At some point I've been thinking how one may do a pilgrimage
                    > medievally... I
                    > think the solution would have to lie in traveling very lightly.


                    You may be interested in this site, the blog of a girl who travelled
                    the Santiago pilgrimage way from Turin in nearly entirely medieval kit

                    http://camino-medieval.webs.com/apps/blog/

                    Check out her lovely equipment pages.

                    best, Ynes de Toledo (Insulae Draconis)

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • George A. Trosper
                    ... Except that their period starts when ours leaves off. --Gerard
                    Message 9 of 15 , Mar 5 1:54 PM
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                      Labhaoise wrote:
                      > the Coalition of Historical Treckers might have info...
                      > http://www.coht.org/
                      >
                      Except that their period starts when ours leaves off.

                      --Gerard
                    • Labhaoise
                      Thanks, I had mislaid the link myself!
                      Message 10 of 15 , Mar 8 8:25 AM
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                        Thanks,

                        I had mislaid the link myself!

                        Ynes de Toledo <hillofbees@...> wrote:
                        > > At some point I've been thinking how one may do a pilgrimage
                        > > medievally... I
                        > > think the solution would have to lie in traveling very lightly.
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