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Re: [Authentic_SCA] 2nd Crusades

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  • George A. Trosper
    ... I m no expert on the period (this is the Crusade that starts in 1145, right?) or on costume in general, so I ve waited a day to see what more expert people
    Message 1 of 15 , Mar 2, 2010
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      Kate wrote:
      > Hello,
      > My son has decided that he wants to portray a man at arms heading off to the 2nd crusades. He has found much on the clothing and weapon aspect. We are finding little information on is what a common soldier might have carried in his kit. I assume he must have had at least a bowl, spoon and knife, but cannot find anything anywhere that would indicate that. Does anybody have any ideas in where to go research wise or have any info on what they would have carried with them? Also what type of pack would have been historical for this period?
      > Thanks,
      > Kate W.
      I'm no expert on the period (this is the Crusade that starts in 1145,
      right?) or on costume in general, so I've waited a day to see what more
      expert people think. Having seen nothing, here's what I think for a)
      what it's worth and b) a prod to the experts.

      As for what holds the kit, I'm thinking a wallet slung by a diagonal
      strap across the back. (Does anybody know why our ancestors didn't
      invent the 2- or 4-strap backpack until the 20th-c.? I've always thought
      the D&D medieval-fantasy-setting usage is anachronistic, but I could be
      wrong.) His cloak will be big and strong enough to sleep in/on, so he's
      not going to carry blankets.

      And I'd bet money that those who ARE expert will tell us that the knife
      will be in a sheath hung from the belt, probably on the side opposite
      his sword, not stuffed into a pack. It will double as an eating and
      fighting knife. But I'd also bet that your son knows that bit already!

      I hang a drinking mug from my own 15th-c. belt, and I suspect that's
      suitable in town for his time, but I don't know if you'd do that on a
      journey or stow it in the pack. I'll be interested to hear.

      Other things to go in the pack: Dried and/or dry food. I believe some
      cheeses keep, for instance. I don't know and haven't yet found whether
      there's a medieval jerky, hardtack, etc.

      --Gerard

      P.S. If nothing good shows up here, one of us can post at
      http://community.livejournal.com/little_details/ , "a community for
      writers concerned about factual accuracy in their stories". (I see no
      reason why persona stories wouldn't qualify!)
    • Diane Sawyer Dooley
      ... {snip} ... {snip} They did. Take a look at *Purses In Pieces* by Olaf Goubitz. There s a drawstring bag with the end of the drawstring attached to the
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 2, 2010
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        >
        >From: George A. Trosper <gtrosper@...>
        >To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
        {snip}
        >
        >>As for what holds the kit, I'm thinking a wallet slung by a diagonal
        >>strap across the back. (Does anybody know why our ancestors didn't
        >>invent the 2- or 4-strap backpack until the 20th-c.? ...)
        {snip}

        They did. Take a look at *Purses In Pieces* by Olaf Goubitz. There's a drawstring bag with the end of the drawstring attached to the corners of the bag in one of the pictures -- looks very, very familiar.

        Might not be the rucksack you're thinking of, but it's a backpack by my lights.

        Tasha
      • britt
        ... From my research the whole Mug on the belt thing is a modern concept but your son would have a spoon and a smallish bowl (to double both as a drinking
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 2, 2010
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          >
          > I hang a drinking mug from my own 15th-c. belt, and I suspect that's
          > suitable in town for his time, but I don't know if you'd do that on a
          > journey or stow it in the pack. I'll be interested to hear.
          >
          From my research the whole "Mug on the belt" thing is a modern concept but your son would have a spoon and a smallish bowl (to double both as a drinking and eating vessel.) Now I am also from a different time and place by a small body of water and a few 100 years (I am Landsknecht so I am drawing from my own body of knowledge which is not so great)
          YIS,
          Lady Magdalena auf KDT

          >
        • Robert Van Rens
          ... And I d bet money that those who ARE expert will tell us that the knife will be in a sheath hung from the belt, probably on the side opposite his sword,
          Message 4 of 15 , Mar 2, 2010
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            Kate wrote:

            > Hello,

            > My son has decided that he wants to portray a man at arms heading off to the 2nd crusades. He has found much on the clothing and weapon aspect. We are finding little information on is what a common soldier might have carried in his kit. I assume he must have had at least a bowl, spoon and knife, but cannot find anything anywhere that would indicate that. Does anybody have any ideas in where to go research wise or have any info on what they would have carried with them? Also what type of pack would have been historical for this period?

            > Thanks,

            > Kate W.


            And I'd bet money that those who ARE expert will tell us that the knife

            will be in a sheath hung from the belt, probably on the side opposite

            his sword, not stuffed into a pack. It will double as an eating and

            fighting knife. But I'd also bet that your son knows that bit already!

            I hang a drinking mug from my own 15th-c. belt, and I suspect that's

            suitable in town for his time, but I don't know if you'd do that on a

            journey or stow it in the pack. I'll be interested to hear.








            He would probably carried a scrip or wallet (a bag carried on a cross-body strap) made of coarse linen or hemp cloth. Possibly leather, but they seem much less common. In that bag, he would have bad a spoon, a couple of bowls (one for eating, and a smaller one for drinking) of wood, and possibly a flask for water or watered wine. The flask would likely have been pottery, or wood, or leather, but it's doubtful a common soldier could afford a metal flask. He would also have carried a knife on his belt, or stuck through his belt - it was a ubiqutious accessory for men, and almost always for women. This knife would have been both tool and eating utensil, and might double a weapon in a pinch.He would NOT have carried a mug on a strap at his belt. No one did - this is a modern anachronism with no evidence that it is based in historical practice. Drinking from a small jug (modernly a mug) is pretty vulgar, and there's not a lot of visual evidence for it this early. It was the kind of thing men did in taverns, or soldiers on campaign, or similar disreputable folks. Jugs small enough to be handy for drinking out of aren't at all common prior to the mid 13th C; while there are certainly beakers and cups of various types, bowls were MUCH more common. A soldier would almost certainly have had a wooden drinking bowl - it's cheap, it's easily replaceable anywhere, and it's tough to break.Hope this helps.Eadric the Potter












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          • Marianne Perdomo
            Hello! I have no evidence for this, but it just occurred to me that what you d carry in your bag/scrip would be the most personal things. If you were with an
            Message 5 of 15 , Mar 3, 2010
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              Hello!

              I have no evidence for this, but it just occurred to me that what you'd
              carry in your bag/scrip would be the most personal things. If you were with
              an army I'd say chances are there'd be pack animals to carry anything
              bulkier. Many pilgrims also traveled in groups - perhaps they had pack
              animals, too, or could hire them. If you were on your own you probably still
              travelled lightly by keeping to the bare necessities and buying or stealing
              whatever else you needed on the way (replacement for worn-out shoes, for
              example).

              Alas I'd never seen this kind of details in what I have read. The only
              documentation hint I have is a book on European medieval trade routes which
              said that businessmen usually arranged transportation for goods
              bought/carried to be sold at inns. As I understood it, a businessman may
              leave Florence with X goods, going to Bruges in Flanders by land. He'd be
              hiring different transport services along the way. These were usually
              arranged with the help of innkeepers.

              Any evidence or thoughts for/against this idea?

              Of course our situation is often different, as we need to carry our things
              and have no pack animals, generally...

              Cheers!


              Leonor


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            • Labhaoise
              When I was reading about Elianor of Aquitaine, they did speak to it. Many of the Ladies had extensive trains of belongings at the beginning of the journey to
              Message 6 of 15 , Mar 3, 2010
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                When I was reading about Elianor of Aquitaine, they did speak to it. Many of the Ladies had extensive trains of belongings at the beginning of the journey to the crusades, which, when times got tough, got dumped by the way... These goods were also comandeered and used by the king to negotiate places to camp, food for the way, etc....

                Of course, people themselves were used as a rate of exchange, and left behind!
                Labhaoise


                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Marianne Perdomo <marianne@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello!
                >
                > I have no evidence for this, but it just occurred to me that what you'd
                > carry in your bag/scrip would be the most personal things. If you were with
              • Marianne Perdomo
                2010/3/3 Labhaoise ... Exactly, also armies elsewhere... What I ve never read is what smaller bands of more normal travellers
                Message 7 of 15 , Mar 3, 2010
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                  2010/3/3 Labhaoise <labhaoise_obeachain@...>

                  > When I was reading about Elianor of Aquitaine, they did speak to it. Many
                  > of the Ladies had extensive trains of belongings at the beginning of the
                  > journey to the crusades, which, when times got tough, got dumped by the
                  > way... These goods were also comandeered and used by the king to negotiate
                  > places to camp, food for the way, etc....
                  >

                  Exactly, also armies elsewhere... What I've never read is what smaller bands
                  of more normal travellers would do. But it makes sense to me that they'd do
                  something similar, though on a smaller scale. I think there's several
                  account of pilgrimages (like Margery Kempe's IIRC) where pilgrims would join
                  in a group. What I'm not sure is the extent of their traveling arrangements.

                  At some point I've been thinking how one may do a pilgrimage medievally... I
                  think the solution would have to lie in traveling very lightly. Mantle, hat
                  and water gourd on your walking staff. Money bag, perhaps some notes or a
                  map for guidance, a shirt to change into while you wash the one you're
                  wearing,...Not sure what else would be indispensable. A knife, probably, but
                  if you managed to get proper food you would probably get your bowl and glass
                  at the inn/wherever you ate. And if your shoes wore out you'd just get them
                  mended or get new ones. It'd explain why they never show big bags/packs in
                  such circumstances. Have I missed anything?

                  Interesting theme, this. :)


                  Leonor


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                • George A. Trosper
                  ... I am strangely pleased to discover that I m doing something mildly disreputable--but annoyed that my method is anachronistic. Regrettably, my mug s
                  Message 8 of 15 , Mar 3, 2010
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                    Robert Van Rens wrote:
                    > He would NOT have carried a mug on a strap at his belt. No one did - this is a modern anachronism with no evidence that it is based in historical practice. Drinking from a small jug (modernly a mug) is pretty vulgar, and there's not a lot of visual evidence for it this early. It was the kind of thing men did in taverns, or soldiers on campaign, or similar disreputable folks.
                    I am strangely pleased to discover that I'm doing something mildly
                    disreputable--but annoyed that my method is anachronistic. Regrettably,
                    my mug's chainmail-with-fake-jewels strap wasn't based on period visual
                    evidence either. Now that I"m not carrying cigarettes and a lighter, I
                    suspect it will fit in my belt pouch along with the car keys, 20th-c.
                    wallet, bag for the rings, etc.

                    I *have* seen visual evidence that tucking one's gloves into the belt is
                    period.

                    More on the original question:

                    * It occurs to me that if you've got a sword and a knife, you'll carry
                    sharpening equipment. I'd figure a whetstone and one or more oily
                    cloths--presumably in a little oil-proof bag--but I may well need to
                    stand corrected on this point, too.

                    * While no D&D backpack would be complete without a length of rope, I
                    don't know if it makes sense for our 2nd-Crusade armsman. But
                    flint-&-steel seems reasonable.

                    * If your boy already has a metal flask, or other too-fancy gear, he
                    doesn't need to have afforded it. That's what foraging (aka looting) is
                    for, and/or gifts from one's liege.
                  • Quokkaqueen
                    ... There were leather cases that cups were placed inside: 15-16th century French:
                    Message 9 of 15 , Mar 3, 2010
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                      <<snip>>
                      > From my research the whole "Mug on the belt" thing is a modern concept
                      <<snip>>

                      There were leather cases that cups were placed inside:

                      15-16th century French:
                      http://www.flickr.com/photos/medievalandrenaissance/3746015890/
                      http://www.flickr.com/photos/medievalandrenaissance/3745287445/
                      http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O127927/cup-case-and/

                      15-16th century German case (glass itself is earlier)
                      http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/mi01636f01a.jpg

                      15th century English case (glass is earlier)
                      http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O3311/beaker-and-case-the-luck-of-edenhall/

                      What might be just a guess from the Victoria & Albert Museum, is the idea that the case 'could be carried on a belt for convenience' or the 'thong might be used to tie a small case to a belt for convenience.' (From vam.ac.uk and the flickr descriptions, respectively.) So there is a vague chance that a cup - in a case- might be a plausible way to carry a cup in the 15th and 16th centuries. It is significantly different to the near-universally worn tankard on a leather strap, but I'd suggest the concept itself is likely.

                      But this is much, much later than the 12th century and the time of the second Crusade.

                      ~Asfridhr
                    • Labhaoise
                      the Coilition of Historical Treckers might have info... http://www.coht.org/ Labhaoise
                      Message 10 of 15 , Mar 4, 2010
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                        the Coilition of Historical Treckers might have info...
                        http://www.coht.org/
                        Labhaoise

                        Marianne Perdomo <marianne@...> wrote:
                        > Exactly, also armies elsewhere... What I've never read is what smaller bands
                        > of more normal travellers would do. But it makes sense to me that they'd do
                        > something similar, though on a smaller scale. I think there's several
                        > account of pilgrimages (like Margery Kempe's IIRC) where pilgrims would join
                        > in a group. What I'm not sure is the extent of their traveling arrangements.
                      • Chris Laning
                        ... As far as I know, the tankard on a leather strap hanging from a belt has purely practical modern roots -- I believe it was invented at Renaissance Faires
                        Message 11 of 15 , Mar 4, 2010
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                          On Mar 3, 2010, at 10:52 PM, Quokkaqueen wrote:

                          > So there is a vague chance that a cup - in a case- might be a
                          > plausible way to carry a cup in the 15th and 16th centuries. It is
                          > significantly different to the near-universally worn tankard on a
                          > leather strap, but I'd suggest the concept itself is likely.


                          As far as I know, the tankard on a leather strap hanging from a belt
                          has purely practical modern roots -- I believe it was invented at
                          Renaissance Faires in California, where having a cup always within
                          reach is helpful in encouraging people to drink enough water and stay
                          hydrated during a long and very hot day outdoors. Hikers sometimes
                          carry a cup hooked to their belt for similar reasons.

                          ____________________________________________________________

                          O (Dame) Christian de Holacombe, OL - Shire of Windy Meads
                          + Kingdom of the West - Chris Laning <claning@...>
                          http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com
                          ____________________________________________________________
                        • Ynes de Toledo
                          ... You may be interested in this site, the blog of a girl who travelled the Santiago pilgrimage way from Turin in nearly entirely medieval kit
                          Message 12 of 15 , Mar 4, 2010
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                            > At some point I've been thinking how one may do a pilgrimage
                            > medievally... I
                            > think the solution would have to lie in traveling very lightly.


                            You may be interested in this site, the blog of a girl who travelled
                            the Santiago pilgrimage way from Turin in nearly entirely medieval kit

                            http://camino-medieval.webs.com/apps/blog/

                            Check out her lovely equipment pages.

                            best, Ynes de Toledo (Insulae Draconis)

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • George A. Trosper
                            ... Except that their period starts when ours leaves off. --Gerard
                            Message 13 of 15 , Mar 5, 2010
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                              Labhaoise wrote:
                              > the Coalition of Historical Treckers might have info...
                              > http://www.coht.org/
                              >
                              Except that their period starts when ours leaves off.

                              --Gerard
                            • Labhaoise
                              Thanks, I had mislaid the link myself!
                              Message 14 of 15 , Mar 8, 2010
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                                Thanks,

                                I had mislaid the link myself!

                                Ynes de Toledo <hillofbees@...> wrote:
                                > > At some point I've been thinking how one may do a pilgrimage
                                > > medievally... I
                                > > think the solution would have to lie in traveling very lightly.
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