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Re: [Authentic_SCA] ladies' reverance

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  • Tiffany Brown
    ... late 16th C, not 15th C, but I note that the woodcuts in Arbeau for a french style reverance show the ladies feet with heels together, while the man has
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 11, 2010
      On 30 January 2010 23:51, Marianne Perdomo <marianne@...> wrote:
      > Greetings!
      >
      > While dancing the doubt has crept up on me... Is there anything anywhere to
      > suggest how ladies did the reverance (or curtsy, or whatever name you'd give
      > it) in the 15th century? Any country would be fine.

      late 16th C, not 15th C, but I note that the woodcuts in Arbeau for a
      french style reverance show the ladies feet with heels together, while
      the man has one leg behind the other, implying the lady is making
      either no move, or something not involving her feet, such a bending
      the knees. Of course his description sheds no light on the matter, and
      the woodcuts might not be as accurate as the text.

      Teffania
      p.s. have you considered asking on specialist dancing mailing lists?



      --
      . ___
      {o,o} The blog you are not looking for
      |)__) is definitely not at
      -"-"- http://teffania.blogspot.com
    • Marianne Perdomo
      Greetings! Yes, I m familiar with Arbeau, thanks, but as you mention it s 100 years too late. I was hoping someone here would have encountered something in
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 11, 2010
        Greetings!

        Yes, I'm familiar with Arbeau, thanks, but as you mention it's 100 years too
        late. I was hoping someone here would have encountered something in books of
        manners or such about the matter, than the dance people might have missed...
        Next step I'll ask them - check if they haven't found something I have
        missed ;)

        Nice blogs, by the way!!

        Thank you!!

        Leonor / Marianne


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      • CLEY
        MODERATOR NOTE: As a courtesy to those members who receive their list mail in digest form, we request that you do not top post. Please trim portions of
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 11, 2010
          MODERATOR NOTE: As a courtesy to those members who receive their list mail in digest form, we request that you do not top post. Please trim portions of previous posts that do not require repetition. Thank you.
          Jehanne de Wodeford, Pacific Time Zone Moderator.

          (REPEATED MESSAGE DELETED)
          You know, you could be looking in the wrong place. Have you checked out any period sources on courtesy? All a reveraunce is supposed to do is give honor to your partner, which leads me to think that it would be something commonly done all the time within a culture without the dance context.

          Have you looked at Master Gregory's web page? He's got all kinds of
          amazing sources there, including massive listings of online books of
          interest to SCAdians, including a number of period sources. Just google:
          Greg Lindahl website

          And prep yourself for more fun than you can stand! :-)

          Arlys
        • Greg Lindahl
          ... Missed? Inconceivable! The main etiquette book you could check is Arena, written in 1520. Here s his entry in the Rendance Bibliography. I believe the
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 11, 2010
            On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 09:26:55AM +0000, Marianne Perdomo wrote:

            > I was hoping someone here would have encountered something in books of
            > manners or such about the matter, than the dance people might have missed...

            Missed? Inconceivable!

            The main etiquette book you could check is Arena, written in 1520. Here's
            his entry in the Rendance Bibliography. I believe the earlier bassadanza
            sources describe the ladies' reverenza as the same as the men. For that
            you should double-check Crane.

            _Arena, Antonius de_.

            Ad Suos Compagniones Studiantes. Avignon: ca.1520.
            Matt Larsen: This is a treatise on the basse dance and dance
            etiquette, written in Latin. It was apparently intended for
            law students at the University of Avignon, who were familiar
            with some dances but not basse dances. Included are 19 basse
            dances, but no music. A large part of the text is devoted to
            telling "middle class" law students what was and was not
            proper on the dance floor. The instructions which are given
            for steps are minimal and, as usual, far from clear. They are
            also difficult to resolve with instructions from other
            manuals and therefore pose an interesting problem to dance
            historians. It has been noted that the choreographies which
            Arbeau gives for bassedances are included in Arena, which
            has lead to speculation that Arbeau may have used Arena as a
            source for a dance which he himself was not completely
            familiar with. He would certainly have had access to Arena,
            since it was reprinted in many editions over a span of more
            than two centuries, with the last reprint being about 1758.
            Nathan Kronenfeld: According to Pierre Chartrand, this is
            currently available and in print as "A ses compagnons
            etudiant"... Antonius Arena, ed. L'Atelier de danse
            populaire, 4 rue Laterale, 94000 Creteil, France (ISBN:
            2-907567-02-0)
            "Rules of Dancing." Dance Research 4, no. 2 (1986): 3-53.
            Translated by John Guthrie and Marino Zorzi.
            Translation of Ad Suos Compagniones Studientes by Antonius de
            Arena.
            Also see entry of original for comments.

            -- Gregory
          • Marianne Perdomo
            2010/2/11 Greg Lindahl ... Do you mean Tolouze and Brussels? If so what is online seems to describe the demarche and the demarche done with
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 13, 2010
              2010/2/11 Greg Lindahl <lindahl@...>

              > On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 09:26:55AM +0000, Marianne Perdomo wrote:
              >
              > > I was hoping someone here would have encountered something in books of
              > > manners or such about the matter, than the dance people might have
              > missed...
              >
              > Missed? Inconceivable!
              >

              :D Well, I always hope there are other things to discover...


              > The main etiquette book you could check is Arena, written in 1520. Here's
              > his entry in the Rendance Bibliography. I believe the earlier bassadanza
              > sources describe the ladies' reverenza as the same as the men. For that
              > you should double-check Crane.
              >

              Do you mean Tolouze and Brussels? If so what is online seems to describe the
              demarche and the demarche done "with reverence" but it's unclear if women
              should do the same.

              I had long assume they were the same, having been taught that, and seen
              nothing to oppose it, but met someone the other day who challenged this and
              I was wondering if there is indeed clear evidence on the matter.

              I'll try to check Crane next time I have the option...

              Thanks a lot for the pointers!! :)


              Leonor / Marianne


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            • Scott
              MODERATOR NOTE: As a courtesy to those members who receive their list mail in digest form, we request that you do not top post. Please trim portions of
              Message 6 of 12 , Feb 15, 2010
                MODERATOR NOTE: As a courtesy to those members who receive their list mail in digest form, we request that you do not top post. Please trim portions of previous posts that do not require repetition. Thank you.
                Jehanne de Wodeford, Pacific Time Zone Moderator.
                (REPEATED MESSAGES DELETED)

                Remember that courtesy is what a knight owed his equals and superiors.
                Obeisance was what anyone lower owed the knight or nobility.

                Colm Dubh
              • Greg Lindahl
                ... For those of you who are aficionados of my more obscure webpages, Lenore (who asked the original question) did the index of the E codex of the Cantigas de
                Message 7 of 12 , Feb 15, 2010
                  On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 07:28:32AM -0800, CLEY wrote:

                  > Have you looked at Master Gregory's web page?

                  For those of you who are aficionados of my more obscure webpages, Lenore
                  (who asked the original question) did the index of the E codex of the
                  Cantigas de Santa Maria for me.

                  Her question was a good one, and she's not going to find a better
                  answer on my webpages than the suggestions I gave her (Arena and
                  Crane.)

                  -- Gregory
                • Marianne Perdomo
                  Greetings! And sorry I left the message in - with my brain it doesn t help that Google Mail often hides such things... And, yes, my whole point of asking here
                  Message 8 of 12 , Feb 16, 2010
                    Greetings!

                    And sorry I left the message in - with my brain it doesn't help that Google
                    Mail often hides such things...

                    And, yes, my whole point of asking here was to see if there was anything on
                    the courtesy sources. I've read some, but I'm sure that's not all. Hence my
                    asking here and not on the dance lists...

                    I've not been able to check Arena yet.. the link I follow online seems to be
                    gone. And it'll be a couple of weeks before I can ask to see Crane, as I
                    don't have it myself. :/
                    Going to try to find Arena again now... as I have the day off for Carnival
                    Tuesday/Mardi Gras :)

                    Cheers!


                    Leonor / Marianne


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