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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Splits in Skirts

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  • Catherine Olanich Raymond
    ... Depends on what portion of SCA period you mean, and what you mean by a center front split . There s certainly plenty of pictorial evidence for overskirts
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 6 11:38 AM
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      On Saturday 06 February 2010 3:25:56 am fayebacharach wrote:
      > I was wondering if there is any evidence of a centre front split in women's
      > dresses. I have never seen a painting featuring this so far.. Though I
      > have seen plenty where the sides or open, or there is split in the
      > centre-side, but never straight down the front. Thank you for any
      > information and painting examples you have!

      Depends on what portion of SCA period you mean, and what you mean by a "center
      front split".

      There's certainly plenty of pictorial evidence for overskirts with a split
      front in the center during the mid-16th century for example. But if you mean
      something more like a modern culotte, that's a different story.

      --

      Cathy Raymond <cathy@...>

      "No one can make as disastrous a bad choice as a smart person, because they
      sell it to themselves really well."--Tobias Buckell
    • fayebacharach
      ... Ooh, I m sorry I didn t specify. I am aware of split skirts during the 16th century, and the foreparts worn underneath. I was looking for information on
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 7 12:02 PM
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        > Depends on what portion of SCA period you mean, and what you mean by a "center
        > front split".
        >
        > There's certainly plenty of pictorial evidence for overskirts with a split
        > front in the center during the mid-16th century for example. But if you mean
        > something more like a modern culotte, that's a different story.
        >
        > --
        >
        > Cathy Raymond <cathy@...>
        >
        > "No one can make as disastrous a bad choice as a smart person, because they
        > sell it to themselves really well."--Tobias Buckell
        >

        Ooh, I'm sorry I didn't specify. I am aware of split skirts during the 16th century, and the foreparts worn underneath. I was looking for information on earlier centuries, anytime between the 13th and 15th centuries. By front split, I mean a split like these:
        http://i524.photobucket.com/albums/cc329/costuming-delight/CHRONICLES%20OF%20NARNIA/PC/Susan%20-%20Purple%20Dress%20and%20Corset/purple2-1.jpg
        &
        http://i524.photobucket.com/albums/cc329/costuming-delight/LORD%20OF%20THE%20RINGS/Eowyn/Two%20Towers/4%20-%20refugee%20outfit/blue_undergown.jpg

        I have seen it dozens of times in movie costumes, and I was wondering if there is any historical background behind the split. Another costuming friend of mine says that front splits where used in riding outfits, but I still haven't seen any examples in period art.

        Thanks again,
        Faye
      • Annikki Raiford
        On 2/7/10, fayebacharach wrote: ... Both of those pictures read trying to be mid-to-late 16th century costume to me, based on
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 7 12:35 PM
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          On 2/7/10, fayebacharach <faye.von.bacharach@...> wrote:

          By front split, I mean a split like these:
          >
          > http://i524.photobucket.com/albums/cc329/costuming-delight/CHRONICLES%20OF%20NARNIA/PC/Susan%20-%20Purple%20Dress%20and%20Corset/purple2-1.jpg
          > &
          >
          > http://i524.photobucket.com/albums/cc329/costuming-delight/LORD%20OF%20THE%20RINGS/Eowyn/Two%20Towers/4%20-%20refugee%20outfit/blue_undergown.jpg
          >
          Both of those pictures read "trying to be mid-to-late 16th century" costume
          to me, based on the waistline point in the front. Particularly the purple
          one with the tabs. The Eowyn dress isn't doing that as much, but it's a
          fantasy pulling from ideas that are separated by centuries in real life
          history. Which is perfectly okay, cause it's *from* a fantasy book. :)

          Adele Desfontaines


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Catherine Olanich Raymond
          ... [snip] ... For the 13th through 15th centuries? The only thing I can think of are some of the Unicorn Tapistries, (though some of those apparently show a
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 7 12:50 PM
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            On Sunday 07 February 2010 3:02:56 pm fayebacharach wrote:
            > > Depends on what portion of SCA period you mean, and what you mean by a
            > > "center front split".
            [snip]

            > Ooh, I'm sorry I didn't specify. I am aware of split skirts during the 16th
            > century, and the foreparts worn underneath. I was looking for information
            > on earlier centuries, anytime between the 13th and 15th centuries. By
            > front split, I mean a split like these:
            > http://i524.photobucket.com/albums/cc329/costuming-delight/CHRONICLES%20OF
            > %20NARNIA/PC/Susan%20-%20Purple%20Dress%20and%20Corset/purple2-1.jpg &
            > http://i524.photobucket.com/albums/cc329/costuming-delight/LORD%20OF%20THE%
            > 20RINGS/Eowyn/Two%20Towers/4%20-%20refugee%20outfit/blue_undergown.jpg
            >
            > I have seen it dozens of times in movie costumes, and I was wondering if
            > there is any historical background behind the split. Another costuming
            > friend of mine says that front splits where used in riding outfits, but I
            > still haven't seen any examples in period art.

            For the 13th through 15th centuries? The only thing I can think of are some
            of the Unicorn Tapistries, (though some of those apparently show a slit
            starting at the hip, not in the center, and some believe that those gowns may
            have been "fantasy", albeit fantasy devised in period):

            http://www.musee-moyenage.fr/ang/pages/page_id18368_u1l2.htm

            --

            Cathy Raymond <cathy@...>

            "No one can make as disastrous a bad choice as a smart person, because they
            sell it to themselves really well."--Tobias Buckell
          • Quokkaqueen
            I was looking for information ... The only example I can think of, is the very loose overgown worn by the woman in pink, in Tornabuoni
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 7 2:43 PM
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              <<snip>> I was looking for information
              > > on earlier centuries, anytime between the 13th and 15th centuries.
              <<snip>>

              The only example I can think of, is the very loose overgown worn by the woman in pink, in Tornabuoni Chapel's, "Birth of Mary" (1486-90).
              http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Birth_of_St_Mary_in_Santa_Maria_Novella_in_Firenze_by_Domenico_Ghirlandaio.jpg
              There might be a split in the front of the gown, if you look at her hem.
              But it strikes me that it is one example out of many, many paintings -- it mightn't be that common.

              In eastern Europe, there _may_ have been an open-front wrap skirt worn by the Rus' called the panova. (There are only fabric fragments, and it may be that the archaeologists are trying to back-document folk dress.)
              eg. http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/wardrobe.html
              http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/KWC2.html

              Hope that's useful,
              ~Asfridhr
            • anabeladg
              ... Faye, I have seen it in Spain as early as Mid 15th Century (see links: http://jessamynscloset.com/15thgallery.html http://des.kyhm.com/?farthhist Note that
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 8 7:42 AM
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                > Ooh, I'm sorry I didn't specify. I am aware of split skirts during the 16th century, and the foreparts worn underneath. I was looking for information on earlier centuries, anytime between the 13th and 15th centuries. By front split, I mean a split like these:

                > I have seen it dozens of times in movie costumes, and I was wondering if there is any historical background behind the split. Another costuming friend of mine says that front splits where used in riding outfits, but I still haven't seen any examples in period art.
                >
                > Thanks again,
                > Faye
                >
                Faye,

                I have seen it in Spain as early as Mid 15th Century (see links:
                http://jessamynscloset.com/15thgallery.html
                http://des.kyhm.com/?farthhist

                Note that many of these overdresses have splits on the side as well as in front. This has been my earliest experience finding a similar garment to the one which you have shown an example.

                Ana de Granada
                Shire of Crystal Mynes, Calontir
              • Karen
                ... I m not sure I ve seen earlier medieval women s riding outfits, but in some medieval illustrations of women riding astride (rather than
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 9 10:31 AM
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                  Faye wrote:

                  > Another costuming friend of mine says that front splits where used
                  > in riding outfits, but I still haven't seen any examples in period art.

                  I'm not sure I've seen earlier medieval women's "riding outfits," but in some medieval illustrations of women riding astride (rather than aside/sidesaddle), they're wearing an overgarment we call a "gardecorps" (which may have been called a "herygoud" in Middle English); see http://larsdatter.com/women-horseback.htm%c2%a0for images of women wearing this garment, as well as other outfits worn while riding.

                  Many examples of a man's gardecorps (see http://larsdatter.com/gardecorps.htm%c2%a0for examples) show a slit up the front and (presumably) the back; I think it is possible that a woman's gardecorps might have had the same feature, though I'm not seeing any direct visual evidence to indicate that.

                  (It seems likely that the women are wearing gowns, kirtles, and smocks underneath; the gardecorps would have covered all of these garments up, but I don't believe these garments would have had any sort of center-front/center-back slit.  I don't think of this as a "riding outfit" per se -- not in the same way that we'd see an 18th or 19th century lady wear a "riding habit" -- but it's an overgarment that *some* early 14th century women wore over their clothing while riding horses.)

                  Karen
                • curious_workmanship
                  ... I ve still got a lot to learn when it comes to authenticity, but it occurred to me that perhaps what looks like a split in a skirt exposing an underskirt
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 10 5:01 AM
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                    --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Catherine Olanich Raymond <cathy@...> wrote:

                    > For the 13th through 15th centuries? The only thing I can think of are some
                    > of the Unicorn Tapistries, (though some of those apparently show a slit
                    > starting at the hip, not in the center, and some believe that those gowns may
                    > have been "fantasy", albeit fantasy devised in period):
                    >
                    > http://www.musee-moyenage.fr/ang/pages/page_id18368_u1l2.htm
                    >
                    > --
                    >
                    > Cathy Raymond <cathy@...>


                    I've still got a lot to learn when it comes to authenticity, but it occurred to me that perhaps what looks like a split in a skirt exposing an underskirt might actually be a gusset of a contrasting fabric? I know that adding a gusset is the basic way to increase fullness at the hip in a tunic-type garment, and that particoloring was cool and that fabric was expensive, so perhaps this would be a more period way to achieve that split-skirt look? Now I'm curious about it.

                    Obrigada,
                    Lianor
                  • Antonia di Benedetto Calvo
                    ... AFAIK, there is no evidence for contrasting-coloured gussets in period (although you do see it occasionally in SCA-wear). -- Antonia di Benedetto Calvo ...
                    Message 9 of 11 , Feb 10 10:27 AM
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                      curious_workmanship wrote:
                      > I've still got a lot to learn when it comes to authenticity, but it occurred to me that perhaps what looks like a split in a skirt exposing an underskirt might actually be a gusset of a contrasting fabric? I know that adding a gusset is the basic way to increase fullness at the hip in a tunic-type garment, and that particoloring was cool and that fabric was expensive, so perhaps this would be a more period way to achieve that split-skirt look? Now I'm curious about it.
                      >

                      AFAIK, there is no evidence for contrasting-coloured gussets in period
                      (although you do see it occasionally in SCA-wear).


                      --
                      Antonia di Benedetto Calvo

                      -----------------------------
                      Habeo metrum - musicamque,
                      hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
                      -Georgeus Gershwinus
                      -----------------------------
                    • Quokkaqueen
                      ... Depending on how dodgy your skills are at dyeing fabric, you may accidentally wind up with gores a different shade than the tunic body.
                      Message 10 of 11 , Feb 11 2:52 AM
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                        <<snip>>
                        > AFAIK, there is no evidence for contrasting-coloured gussets in period
                        > (although you do see it occasionally in SCA-wear).
                        <<snip>>

                        Depending on how dodgy your skills are at dyeing fabric, you may accidentally wind up with gores a different shade than the tunic body.
                        (Or, how well the dyes were preserved over time, which is what I suspect is what gives the yellow-green Guddal tunic more yellowish sleeves and a gore -- about halfway down here -- http://home.broadpark.no/~jantaule/div%20om%20middelalderen/diverse_om_middelalderen.htm )

                        For a clearer example of uneven dyeing giving slightly different shades of colour, see a modern reconstruction of a tunic here:
                        http://www.vesteraalen.info/gavlen_skjoldehamndrakten_2_09.JPG
                        from http://www.vesteraalen.info/reportasje_andoy_skjoldeforedrag_09.htm


                        But that's different to having _contrasting_ gores. The only examples I can think of are within the SCA period (pre-1600), but aren't European (they're 16th century Korean).

                        ~Asfridhr
                        (Who has one dress in particular that is fading very unevenly, and is now a weird combination of lavender and blue-grey.)
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