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ladies' reverance

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  • Marianne Perdomo
    Greetings! While dancing the doubt has crept up on me... Is there anything anywhere to suggest how ladies did the reverance (or curtsy, or whatever name you d
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 30, 2010
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      Greetings!

      While dancing the doubt has crept up on me... Is there anything anywhere to
      suggest how ladies did the reverance (or curtsy, or whatever name you'd give
      it) in the 15th century? Any country would be fine.

      I have read Caroso's description of a lady's reverance, so I know about
      that, but comments on it are welcome, too.

      Thanks!


      Leonor / Marianne


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    • Andrea Luxenburg
      Does it seem to be true, as Wikipedia says, that Chaucer invented the tradition that birds choose their mates on Feb 14, or are there earlier references?
      Message 2 of 12 , Jan 30, 2010
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        Does it seem to be true, as Wikipedia says, that Chaucer invented the "tradition" that birds choose their mates on Feb 14, or are there earlier references?

        Thank you.

        Andrea
















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      • CLEY
        MODERATOR NOTE: As a courtesy to those members who receive their list mail in digest form, we request that you do not top post. Please trim portions of
        Message 3 of 12 , Jan 30, 2010
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          MODERATOR NOTE: As a courtesy to those members who receive their list mail in digest form, we request that you do not top post. Please trim portions of previous posts that do not require repetition. Thank you.
          Jehanne de Wodeford, Pacific Time Zone Moderator.

          ORIGINAL MESSAGE ORDER REVERSED:
          Andrea Luxenburg wrote:
          >
          > Does it seem to be true, as Wikipedia says, that Chaucer invented the
          > "tradition" that birds choose their mates on Feb 14, or are there
          > earlier references?
          >

          Wiki can be dubious at best sometimes. Were there references cited for
          the article? If so, check those?

          Arlys
        • Quokkaqueen
          ... The source for Wikipedia, and the origin of the idea seems to be from: Jack B. Oruch St. Valentine, Chaucer, and Spring in February
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 1, 2010
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            <<snip>>
            > > Does it seem to be true, as Wikipedia says, that Chaucer invented the
            > > "tradition" that birds choose their mates on Feb 14, or are there
            > > earlier references?
            <<snip>>

            The source for Wikipedia, and the origin of the idea seems to be from:

            Jack B. Oruch "St. Valentine, Chaucer, and Spring in February"
            _Speculum_ Vol. 56, No. 3 (Jul., 1981), pp. 534-565
            You can read the first page on JSTOR, which might be enough:
            http://www.jstor.org/pss/2847741

            H.A. Kelly has written a book about it, called "Chaucer and the Cult of St. Valentine," which has a GoogleBooks preview:
            http://books.google.com.au/books?id=_bqdZbKPztMC&lpg=PP1&ots=44oTuWk3LY&dq=Chaucer%20and%20the%20Cult%20of%20St.%20Valentine&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q=Chaucer%20and%20the%20Cult%20of%20St.%20Valentine&f=false
            Here is a brief article: http://spotlight.ucla.edu/faculty/henry-kelly_valentine/

            So, Chaucer seems to have invented the idea of love being linked to St. Valentine, but the February 14th date seems to have happened afterwards. Kelly argues that there are at least two saints called St. Valentine, one had a feast day in May and the other in February, and they got confused.

            But that's just from a very brief browse, hopefully tracking down some books and articles would provide more information.

            ~Asfridhr
          • Tiffany Brown
            ... late 16th C, not 15th C, but I note that the woodcuts in Arbeau for a french style reverance show the ladies feet with heels together, while the man has
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 11, 2010
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              On 30 January 2010 23:51, Marianne Perdomo <marianne@...> wrote:
              > Greetings!
              >
              > While dancing the doubt has crept up on me... Is there anything anywhere to
              > suggest how ladies did the reverance (or curtsy, or whatever name you'd give
              > it) in the 15th century? Any country would be fine.

              late 16th C, not 15th C, but I note that the woodcuts in Arbeau for a
              french style reverance show the ladies feet with heels together, while
              the man has one leg behind the other, implying the lady is making
              either no move, or something not involving her feet, such a bending
              the knees. Of course his description sheds no light on the matter, and
              the woodcuts might not be as accurate as the text.

              Teffania
              p.s. have you considered asking on specialist dancing mailing lists?



              --
              . ___
              {o,o} The blog you are not looking for
              |)__) is definitely not at
              -"-"- http://teffania.blogspot.com
            • Marianne Perdomo
              Greetings! Yes, I m familiar with Arbeau, thanks, but as you mention it s 100 years too late. I was hoping someone here would have encountered something in
              Message 6 of 12 , Feb 11, 2010
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                Greetings!

                Yes, I'm familiar with Arbeau, thanks, but as you mention it's 100 years too
                late. I was hoping someone here would have encountered something in books of
                manners or such about the matter, than the dance people might have missed...
                Next step I'll ask them - check if they haven't found something I have
                missed ;)

                Nice blogs, by the way!!

                Thank you!!

                Leonor / Marianne


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              • CLEY
                MODERATOR NOTE: As a courtesy to those members who receive their list mail in digest form, we request that you do not top post. Please trim portions of
                Message 7 of 12 , Feb 11, 2010
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                  MODERATOR NOTE: As a courtesy to those members who receive their list mail in digest form, we request that you do not top post. Please trim portions of previous posts that do not require repetition. Thank you.
                  Jehanne de Wodeford, Pacific Time Zone Moderator.

                  (REPEATED MESSAGE DELETED)
                  You know, you could be looking in the wrong place. Have you checked out any period sources on courtesy? All a reveraunce is supposed to do is give honor to your partner, which leads me to think that it would be something commonly done all the time within a culture without the dance context.

                  Have you looked at Master Gregory's web page? He's got all kinds of
                  amazing sources there, including massive listings of online books of
                  interest to SCAdians, including a number of period sources. Just google:
                  Greg Lindahl website

                  And prep yourself for more fun than you can stand! :-)

                  Arlys
                • Greg Lindahl
                  ... Missed? Inconceivable! The main etiquette book you could check is Arena, written in 1520. Here s his entry in the Rendance Bibliography. I believe the
                  Message 8 of 12 , Feb 11, 2010
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                    On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 09:26:55AM +0000, Marianne Perdomo wrote:

                    > I was hoping someone here would have encountered something in books of
                    > manners or such about the matter, than the dance people might have missed...

                    Missed? Inconceivable!

                    The main etiquette book you could check is Arena, written in 1520. Here's
                    his entry in the Rendance Bibliography. I believe the earlier bassadanza
                    sources describe the ladies' reverenza as the same as the men. For that
                    you should double-check Crane.

                    _Arena, Antonius de_.

                    Ad Suos Compagniones Studiantes. Avignon: ca.1520.
                    Matt Larsen: This is a treatise on the basse dance and dance
                    etiquette, written in Latin. It was apparently intended for
                    law students at the University of Avignon, who were familiar
                    with some dances but not basse dances. Included are 19 basse
                    dances, but no music. A large part of the text is devoted to
                    telling "middle class" law students what was and was not
                    proper on the dance floor. The instructions which are given
                    for steps are minimal and, as usual, far from clear. They are
                    also difficult to resolve with instructions from other
                    manuals and therefore pose an interesting problem to dance
                    historians. It has been noted that the choreographies which
                    Arbeau gives for bassedances are included in Arena, which
                    has lead to speculation that Arbeau may have used Arena as a
                    source for a dance which he himself was not completely
                    familiar with. He would certainly have had access to Arena,
                    since it was reprinted in many editions over a span of more
                    than two centuries, with the last reprint being about 1758.
                    Nathan Kronenfeld: According to Pierre Chartrand, this is
                    currently available and in print as "A ses compagnons
                    etudiant"... Antonius Arena, ed. L'Atelier de danse
                    populaire, 4 rue Laterale, 94000 Creteil, France (ISBN:
                    2-907567-02-0)
                    "Rules of Dancing." Dance Research 4, no. 2 (1986): 3-53.
                    Translated by John Guthrie and Marino Zorzi.
                    Translation of Ad Suos Compagniones Studientes by Antonius de
                    Arena.
                    Also see entry of original for comments.

                    -- Gregory
                  • Marianne Perdomo
                    2010/2/11 Greg Lindahl ... Do you mean Tolouze and Brussels? If so what is online seems to describe the demarche and the demarche done with
                    Message 9 of 12 , Feb 13, 2010
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                      2010/2/11 Greg Lindahl <lindahl@...>

                      > On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 09:26:55AM +0000, Marianne Perdomo wrote:
                      >
                      > > I was hoping someone here would have encountered something in books of
                      > > manners or such about the matter, than the dance people might have
                      > missed...
                      >
                      > Missed? Inconceivable!
                      >

                      :D Well, I always hope there are other things to discover...


                      > The main etiquette book you could check is Arena, written in 1520. Here's
                      > his entry in the Rendance Bibliography. I believe the earlier bassadanza
                      > sources describe the ladies' reverenza as the same as the men. For that
                      > you should double-check Crane.
                      >

                      Do you mean Tolouze and Brussels? If so what is online seems to describe the
                      demarche and the demarche done "with reverence" but it's unclear if women
                      should do the same.

                      I had long assume they were the same, having been taught that, and seen
                      nothing to oppose it, but met someone the other day who challenged this and
                      I was wondering if there is indeed clear evidence on the matter.

                      I'll try to check Crane next time I have the option...

                      Thanks a lot for the pointers!! :)


                      Leonor / Marianne


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                    • Scott
                      MODERATOR NOTE: As a courtesy to those members who receive their list mail in digest form, we request that you do not top post. Please trim portions of
                      Message 10 of 12 , Feb 15, 2010
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                        MODERATOR NOTE: As a courtesy to those members who receive their list mail in digest form, we request that you do not top post. Please trim portions of previous posts that do not require repetition. Thank you.
                        Jehanne de Wodeford, Pacific Time Zone Moderator.
                        (REPEATED MESSAGES DELETED)

                        Remember that courtesy is what a knight owed his equals and superiors.
                        Obeisance was what anyone lower owed the knight or nobility.

                        Colm Dubh
                      • Greg Lindahl
                        ... For those of you who are aficionados of my more obscure webpages, Lenore (who asked the original question) did the index of the E codex of the Cantigas de
                        Message 11 of 12 , Feb 15, 2010
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                          On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 07:28:32AM -0800, CLEY wrote:

                          > Have you looked at Master Gregory's web page?

                          For those of you who are aficionados of my more obscure webpages, Lenore
                          (who asked the original question) did the index of the E codex of the
                          Cantigas de Santa Maria for me.

                          Her question was a good one, and she's not going to find a better
                          answer on my webpages than the suggestions I gave her (Arena and
                          Crane.)

                          -- Gregory
                        • Marianne Perdomo
                          Greetings! And sorry I left the message in - with my brain it doesn t help that Google Mail often hides such things... And, yes, my whole point of asking here
                          Message 12 of 12 , Feb 16, 2010
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                            Greetings!

                            And sorry I left the message in - with my brain it doesn't help that Google
                            Mail often hides such things...

                            And, yes, my whole point of asking here was to see if there was anything on
                            the courtesy sources. I've read some, but I'm sure that's not all. Hence my
                            asking here and not on the dance lists...

                            I've not been able to check Arena yet.. the link I follow online seems to be
                            gone. And it'll be a couple of weeks before I can ask to see Crane, as I
                            don't have it myself. :/
                            Going to try to find Arena again now... as I have the day off for Carnival
                            Tuesday/Mardi Gras :)

                            Cheers!


                            Leonor / Marianne


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