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Re: paper castles

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  • xina007eu
    ... Hi Andrea, by the 14th century, paper was already in existence. It was first made in Spain (Have you read or seen _The Name of the Rose_? The plot of the
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 26, 2010
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      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Andrea Luxenburg <huwydd@...> wrote:
      >
      > In Sir Gawaine and the Green Knight, line 802, the castle is compared to "a castle cut of paper for a king's feast". (Boroff translation)  Was paper in England in late 14th century?  Anyone have more information on cut paper castles - it sounds like a centerpiece or decoration? 
      >
      > Thanks for any input.
      >
      > Andrea
      >
      Hi Andrea,

      by the 14th century, paper was already in existence. It was first made in Spain (Have you read or seen _The Name of the Rose_? The plot of the book and film hinges upon a book written on paper rather than on parchment).
      The original text of _Sir Gawain and the Grene Knight_ mentions that the castle looks like it is cut out of paper but it doesn't say anything about decoration for a king's feast (see http://rpo.library.utoronto.ca/poem/62.html for the original text and a prose translation).
      So that part seems to be an interpretation on part of the translator.

      Best regards,

      Christina
    • Antonia di Benedetto Calvo
      ... I don t think a 20th century novel counts as evidence -- Antonia di Benedetto Calvo ... Habeo metrum - musicamque, hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 26, 2010
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        xina007eu wrote:
        >> In Sir Gawaine and the Green Knight, line 802, the castle is compared to "a castle cut of paper for a king's feast". (Boroff translation) Was paper in England in late 14th century? Anyone have more information on cut paper castles - it sounds like a centerpiece or decoration?
        >>
        >
        > by the 14th century, paper was already in existence. It was first made in Spain (Have you read or seen _The Name of the Rose_? The plot of the book and film hinges upon a book written on paper rather than on parchment)


        I don't think a 20th century novel counts as evidence

        --
        Antonia di Benedetto Calvo

        -----------------------------
        Habeo metrum - musicamque,
        hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
        -Georgeus Gershwinus
        -----------------------------
      • Marianne Perdomo
        2010/1/26 Antonia di Benedetto Calvo ... There s plenty of evidence for paper before the 14th century if you look in the right places
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 26, 2010
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          2010/1/26 Antonia di Benedetto Calvo <dama.antonia@...>

          >
          > I don't think a 20th century novel counts as evidence
          >

          There's plenty of evidence for paper before the 14th century if you look in
          the right places (like a history of paper, or writing surfaces). No need to
          prove that much...

          For the record Xativa (Jativa) in Moslem Spain was producing paper at least
          by 1150.
          http://www.xatired.com/laciutat/1999/091999/el_papel_de_xativa.htm

          IIRC, 14th c. Italian merchant Marco Datini (aka the Merchant of Prato) had
          plenty of letters on paper.

          For more info on the history of paper see:
          http://users.stlcc.edu/nfuller/paper/

          Of course this doesn't solve the question of the decorative castles
          mentioned... which sounds very intriguing.

          Cheers!


          Marianne / Leonor


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Antonia di Benedetto Calvo
          ... I don t deny it. I m sure the is plenty of evidence. It s just not in _The Name of the Rose_. -- Antonia di Benedetto Calvo ... Habeo metrum -
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 26, 2010
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            Marianne Perdomo wrote:
            > 2010/1/26 Antonia di Benedetto Calvo <dama.antonia@...>
            >
            >
            >> I don't think a 20th century novel counts as evidence
            >>
            >>
            >
            > There's plenty of evidence for paper before the 14th century if you look in
            > the right places (like a history of paper, or writing surfaces). No need to
            > prove that much...
            >

            I don't deny it. I'm sure the is plenty of evidence. It's just not in
            _The Name of the Rose_.


            --
            Antonia di Benedetto Calvo

            -----------------------------
            Habeo metrum - musicamque,
            hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
            -Georgeus Gershwinus
            -----------------------------
          • xina007eu
            ... Hi Antonia, I didn t intend the reference as evidence, rather as a memory aid. Nevertheless, the author of the novel in question did a lot of research for
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 3, 2010
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              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Antonia di Benedetto Calvo <dama.antonia@...> wrote:
              >
              >>
              >
              > I don't think a 20th century novel counts as evidence
              >
              > --
              > Antonia di Benedetto Calvo
              >

              Hi Antonia,

              I didn't intend the reference as evidence, rather as a memory aid. Nevertheless, the author of the novel in question did a lot of research for this book. My guess is that he probably did more research for novel than than many of us, myself included, have done in all our lives, and I personally have a lot of respect for him.

              Best regards,

              Christina
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