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13th C Elephant clock recreated

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  • Samia al-Kaslaania
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/culturenews/7045228/Elephant-Clock-is-centrepiece-of-Science-Museums-Islamic-exhibition.html For the nerd in us all. This
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 22, 2010
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    • Andrea Luxenburg
      In Sir Gawaine and the Green Knight, line 802, the castle is compared to a castle cut of paper for a king s feast . (Boroff translation)  Was paper in
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 22, 2010
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        In Sir Gawaine and the Green Knight, line 802, the castle is compared to "a castle cut of paper for a king's feast". (Boroff translation)  Was paper in England in late 14th century?  Anyone have more information on cut paper castles - it sounds like a centerpiece or decoration? 

        Thanks for any input.

        Andrea















        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • wodeford
        ... http://users.stlcc.edu/nfuller/paper/ may be of interest. There doesn t appear to be much information on paper being manufactured in England before the
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 22, 2010
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          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Andrea Luxenburg <huwydd@...> wrote:
          >
          > In Sir Gawaine and the Green Knight, line 802, the castle is compared to "a castle cut of paper for a king's feast". (Boroff translation)  Was paper in England in late 14th century? 

          http://users.stlcc.edu/nfuller/paper/ may be of interest. There doesn't appear to be much information on paper being manufactured in England before the 16th c., but it was being made on the Continent.

          Saionji no Hanae
          West Kingdom
        • Jennifer Nestojko
          There seem to be some sources for paper being in England in the 15th century, possibly part of the later 14th. It would have been linen rag paper, not wood
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 22, 2010
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            There seem to be some sources for paper being in England in the 15th century, possibly part of the later 14th. It would have been linen rag paper, not wood pulp paper.

            Interestingly enough, paper was considered not good enough or durable enough for many texts, so perhaps using it as a centerpiece would have been seen as more fitting (though that is conjecture.)

            Branwen Cryccthegn


            "What are you playing at?"
            "Words, words: they're all we have to go on."
            "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead"
            film version







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Cynthia J Ley
            On Fri, 22 Jan 2010 11:54:26 -0800 Jennifer Nestojko ... ____________________________________________________________ Diet Help Cheap Diet Help Tips. Click
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 23, 2010
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              On Fri, 22 Jan 2010 11:54:26 -0800 Jennifer Nestojko
              <deadmidfiscum@...> writes:
              >
              > There seem to be some sources for paper being in England in the 15th
              > century, possibly part of the later 14th. It would have been linen
              > rag paper, not wood pulp paper.
              >
              > Interestingly enough, paper was considered not good enough or
              > durable enough for many texts, so perhaps using it as a centerpiece
              > would have been seen as more fitting (though that is conjecture.)
              >
              > Branwen Cryccthegn
              >
              >
              > "What are you playing at?"
              > "Words, words: they're all we have to go on."
              > "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead"
              > film version
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >

              ____________________________________________________________
              Diet Help
              Cheap Diet Help Tips. Click here.
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            • xina007eu
              ... Hi Andrea, by the 14th century, paper was already in existence. It was first made in Spain (Have you read or seen _The Name of the Rose_? The plot of the
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 26, 2010
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                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Andrea Luxenburg <huwydd@...> wrote:
                >
                > In Sir Gawaine and the Green Knight, line 802, the castle is compared to "a castle cut of paper for a king's feast". (Boroff translation)  Was paper in England in late 14th century?  Anyone have more information on cut paper castles - it sounds like a centerpiece or decoration? 
                >
                > Thanks for any input.
                >
                > Andrea
                >
                Hi Andrea,

                by the 14th century, paper was already in existence. It was first made in Spain (Have you read or seen _The Name of the Rose_? The plot of the book and film hinges upon a book written on paper rather than on parchment).
                The original text of _Sir Gawain and the Grene Knight_ mentions that the castle looks like it is cut out of paper but it doesn't say anything about decoration for a king's feast (see http://rpo.library.utoronto.ca/poem/62.html for the original text and a prose translation).
                So that part seems to be an interpretation on part of the translator.

                Best regards,

                Christina
              • Antonia di Benedetto Calvo
                ... I don t think a 20th century novel counts as evidence -- Antonia di Benedetto Calvo ... Habeo metrum - musicamque, hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
                Message 7 of 10 , Jan 26, 2010
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                  xina007eu wrote:
                  >> In Sir Gawaine and the Green Knight, line 802, the castle is compared to "a castle cut of paper for a king's feast". (Boroff translation) Was paper in England in late 14th century? Anyone have more information on cut paper castles - it sounds like a centerpiece or decoration?
                  >>
                  >
                  > by the 14th century, paper was already in existence. It was first made in Spain (Have you read or seen _The Name of the Rose_? The plot of the book and film hinges upon a book written on paper rather than on parchment)


                  I don't think a 20th century novel counts as evidence

                  --
                  Antonia di Benedetto Calvo

                  -----------------------------
                  Habeo metrum - musicamque,
                  hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
                  -Georgeus Gershwinus
                  -----------------------------
                • Marianne Perdomo
                  2010/1/26 Antonia di Benedetto Calvo ... There s plenty of evidence for paper before the 14th century if you look in the right places
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jan 26, 2010
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                    2010/1/26 Antonia di Benedetto Calvo <dama.antonia@...>

                    >
                    > I don't think a 20th century novel counts as evidence
                    >

                    There's plenty of evidence for paper before the 14th century if you look in
                    the right places (like a history of paper, or writing surfaces). No need to
                    prove that much...

                    For the record Xativa (Jativa) in Moslem Spain was producing paper at least
                    by 1150.
                    http://www.xatired.com/laciutat/1999/091999/el_papel_de_xativa.htm

                    IIRC, 14th c. Italian merchant Marco Datini (aka the Merchant of Prato) had
                    plenty of letters on paper.

                    For more info on the history of paper see:
                    http://users.stlcc.edu/nfuller/paper/

                    Of course this doesn't solve the question of the decorative castles
                    mentioned... which sounds very intriguing.

                    Cheers!


                    Marianne / Leonor


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                  • Antonia di Benedetto Calvo
                    ... I don t deny it. I m sure the is plenty of evidence. It s just not in _The Name of the Rose_. -- Antonia di Benedetto Calvo ... Habeo metrum -
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jan 26, 2010
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                      Marianne Perdomo wrote:
                      > 2010/1/26 Antonia di Benedetto Calvo <dama.antonia@...>
                      >
                      >
                      >> I don't think a 20th century novel counts as evidence
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      > There's plenty of evidence for paper before the 14th century if you look in
                      > the right places (like a history of paper, or writing surfaces). No need to
                      > prove that much...
                      >

                      I don't deny it. I'm sure the is plenty of evidence. It's just not in
                      _The Name of the Rose_.


                      --
                      Antonia di Benedetto Calvo

                      -----------------------------
                      Habeo metrum - musicamque,
                      hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
                      -Georgeus Gershwinus
                      -----------------------------
                    • xina007eu
                      ... Hi Antonia, I didn t intend the reference as evidence, rather as a memory aid. Nevertheless, the author of the novel in question did a lot of research for
                      Message 10 of 10 , Feb 3, 2010
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                        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Antonia di Benedetto Calvo <dama.antonia@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >>
                        >
                        > I don't think a 20th century novel counts as evidence
                        >
                        > --
                        > Antonia di Benedetto Calvo
                        >

                        Hi Antonia,

                        I didn't intend the reference as evidence, rather as a memory aid. Nevertheless, the author of the novel in question did a lot of research for this book. My guess is that he probably did more research for novel than than many of us, myself included, have done in all our lives, and I personally have a lot of respect for him.

                        Best regards,

                        Christina
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