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Irish food...secondhand warnings

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  • Jeff Heilveil
    Salut! to throw in my .02, while I don t do Irish in my research, I have heard, numerous times, that Irish food and Scottish food from period is near to
    Message 1 of 24 , May 7, 2001
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      Salut!
      to throw in my .02, while I don't do Irish in my research, I have heard,
      numerous times, that Irish food and Scottish food from period is near to
      undocumentable. This is not to say that there is not mention of food in
      sagas, just that while we can gain names for food from sagas it is very
      rare to find instructions on how it was made. there are a number of
      dishes from period which have similar names, yet have nothing to do with
      each other. Additionally, some dishes have amazingly different names and
      are essentially the same dish. Please to keep this in mind if you are
      trying to authentically re-create food items from a period based on sagas
      and other stories, as opposed to cooking manuals.

      Cu drag,
      Bogdan

      _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
      Is one who cooks Illusion foods* an Illusive cook?

      If so, does that mean that you can never find them when you are hungry?
      (or do those cooks make Ellusive food?)

      *Illusion food is food which is made of one thing and appears to be
      another, such as marzipan or sugarpaste.
      _______________________________________________________________________________
      Jeffrey Heilveil M.S. Ld. Bogdan de la Brasov, C.W.
      Department of Entomology A Bear's paw and base vert on field argent
      University of Illinois
      heilveil@...
      home: (217) 355-5702
      _______________________________________________________________________________
    • Kass McGann
      ... But a roasted deer flank is probably still a roasted deer flank, yes? ;) Kass
      Message 2 of 24 , May 7, 2001
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        > Please to keep this in mind if you are
        > trying to authentically re-create food items from a period based on sagas
        > and other stories, as opposed to cooking manuals.

        But a roasted deer flank is probably still a roasted deer flank, yes? ;)

        Kass
      • rowengr@hotmail.com
        ... on sagas ... yes? ;) ... Yes, but was it roasted in some sort of oven, or over a peat fire, or over an alder-wood fire, and was it flavored with onion, or
        Message 3 of 24 , May 7, 2001
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          --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "Kass McGann" <historian@r...> wrote:
          > > Please to keep this in mind if you are
          > > trying to authentically re-create food items from a period based
          on sagas
          > > and other stories, as opposed to cooking manuals.
          >
          > But a roasted deer flank is probably still a roasted deer flank,
          yes? ;)
          >
          > Kass

          Yes, but was it roasted in some sort of oven, or over a peat fire, or
          over an alder-wood fire, and was it flavored with onion, or leeks,
          or....?

          The hazards of redaction from saga....

          Rowen
        • rowengr@hotmail.com
          ... heard, ... near to ... I d about discovered this with Scottish food, and was hoping for better luck with Irish. This is not to say that there is not
          Message 4 of 24 , May 7, 2001
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            --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Jeff Heilveil <heilveil@u...> wrote:
            > Salut!
            > to throw in my .02, while I don't do Irish in my research, I have
            heard,
            > numerous times, that Irish food and Scottish food from period is
            near to
            > undocumentable.

            I'd about discovered this with Scottish food, and was hoping for
            better luck with Irish.


            This is not to say that there is not mention of food in
            > sagas, just that while we can gain names for food from sagas it is
            very
            > rare to find instructions on how it was made. there are a number of
            > dishes from period which have similar names, yet have nothing to do
            with
            > each other. Additionally, some dishes have amazingly different
            names and
            > are essentially the same dish. Please to keep this in mind if you
            are
            > trying to authentically re-create food items from a period based on
            sagas and other stories, as opposed to cooking manuals.
            >
            > Cu drag,
            > Bogdan

            Well, aware of the hazards, but a reminder never hurts.... ;)

            Rowen
          • caoilte
            ... You may need to reference archeological information. You will at least be able to find what animals and cereals were used if not how they were prepared.
            Message 5 of 24 , May 7, 2001
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              Jeff Heilveil wrote:

              > Salut!
              > to throw in my .02, while I don't do Irish in my research, I have heard,
              > numerous times, that Irish food and Scottish food from period is near to
              > undocumentable. This is not to say that there is not mention of food in
              > sagas, just that while we can gain names for food from sagas it is very
              > rare to find instructions on how it was made. there are a number of
              > dishes from period which have similar names, yet have nothing to do with
              > each other. Additionally, some dishes have amazingly different names and
              > are essentially the same dish. Please to keep this in mind if you are
              > trying to authentically re-create food items from a period based on sagas
              > and other stories, as opposed to cooking manuals.
              >
              > Cu drag,
              > Bogdan
              >

              You may need to reference archeological information. You will at least be able to
              find what animals and cereals were used if not how they were prepared. Working
              from memory I can say that your dealing with a cattle culture and dairy products
              are a big part of the diet. Milk, cream, and cheese (cant tell you which variety
              is closest to a period Irish type, but I seem to recall that Munster was named
              after the place where the monks who are supposed to have invented it came from.
              Oats were a common cereal and wheat bread seems to have been reserved for the upper
              classes.

              Caoilte
            • rowengr@hotmail.com
              ... least be able to ... prepared. Working ... dairy products ... which variety ... was named ... came from. ... reserved for the upper ... Right... I seem
              Message 6 of 24 , May 7, 2001
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                --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., caoilte <caoilte@q...> wrote:
                >
                > You may need to reference archeological information. You will at
                least be able to
                > find what animals and cereals were used if not how they were
                prepared. Working
                > from memory I can say that your dealing with a cattle culture and
                dairy products
                > are a big part of the diet. Milk, cream, and cheese (cant tell you
                which variety
                > is closest to a period Irish type, but I seem to recall that Munster
                was named
                > after the place where the monks who are supposed to have invented it
                came from.
                > Oats were a common cereal and wheat bread seems to have been
                reserved for the upper
                > classes.
                >
                > Caoilte

                Right... I seem to remember that we have some small volumes of
                archelogical evidence from a "Foods in Britain" (or some such) series
                (maybe old HMSO? I got them a long time ago.)

                Thanks for the reminder. :)

                There's a lot of information in a book I have (can visualize the
                cover, can't remember the title) with quite a number of refs on early
                Irish farming. That sounds like a good possible source, too.

                Rowen
              • Kass McGann
                ... from. Isn t that Munster, the place in Germany? I don t think cheese was big in Ireland (butter was and we have much bog butter in museum basements). But
                Message 7 of 24 , May 7, 2001
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                  > but I seem to recall that Munster was named
                  > after the place where the monks who are supposed to have invented it came
                  from.

                  Isn't that Munster, the place in Germany? I don't think cheese was big in
                  Ireland (butter was and we have much bog butter in museum basements). But
                  again, not my forte...

                  Kass
                • caoilte
                  ... could be, I would consider most stories on origins of stuff like this to be hearsay, but I would not be surprised if the monks were Irish missionaries.
                  Message 8 of 24 , May 7, 2001
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                    Kass McGann wrote:

                    > > but I seem to recall that Munster was named
                    > > after the place where the monks who are supposed to have invented it came
                    > from.
                    >
                    > Isn't that Munster, the place in Germany? I don't think cheese was big in
                    > Ireland (butter was and we have much bog butter in museum basements). But
                    > again, not my forte...
                    >
                    > Kass
                    >

                    could be, I would consider most stories on origins of stuff like this to be
                    hearsay, but I would not be surprised if the monks were Irish missionaries.
                    The white martyres were pretty common on the continent during the early part of
                    the SCA period. It's not really my forte eather. I haven't worried about it
                    much since reading a comment that the Irish were very omniverous and ate just
                    about anything that swam, flew, or walked on four legs, though they were not
                    happy when an English king served stork to a gathering of chieftains. The
                    source wasn't clear if this was due to a food taboo or because it was seerved
                    by a sassanach. I really wish I could have taken my library with me on that
                    last move, I don't have my sources to hand.

                    Caoilte
                  • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
                    ... Yes, in France. Back in the seventh century the monks of the Monasterium Confluentes, located in what is now called Munster Valley, invented Munster
                    Message 9 of 24 , May 7, 2001
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                       Milk, cream, and cheese (cant tell you which variety
                      is closest to a period Irish type, but I seem to recall that Munster was named after the place where the monks who are supposed to have invented it came from.

                      Yes, in France.

                      Back in the seventh century the monks of the "Monasterium Confluentes," located in what is now called Munster Valley, invented "Munster Kaes" in order to preserve milk and feed the great numbers of people crowding round the monastery.
                      Ever since then, Alsace and Lorraine have put their talents together to produce a unique cheese. Since the herds grazed on the stubble fields on the Lorraine-side of the Vosges Massif, and the rent for these fields,
                      payable in the form of a day's production of cheese to the Duke of Lorraine, was paid in Gérardmer ("Géromé" in the Vosges dialect), "Munster Kaes" also came to be known as Géromé" as of the eighth century.

                      Although, this and many other cheeses were then passed through Europe, one cannot be certain when it reached the Irish.

                      Cu Respectivo,
                      Despina


                    • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
                      ... Munster is actually from monestary as monks began the making of it. Despina
                      Message 10 of 24 , May 7, 2001
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                        At 02:45 PM 5/7/2001 -0400, you wrote:
                        > but I seem to recall that Munster was named
                        > after the place where the monks who are supposed to have invented it came
                        from.

                        Isn't that Munster, the place in Germany? 

                        Munster is actually from 'monestary' as monks began the making of it.

                        Despina


                      • Kass McGann
                        Munster is actually from monestary as monks began the making of it. ... So it s a false cognate of the province in Ireland? I see... Kass
                        Message 11 of 24 , May 7, 2001
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                          Munster is actually from 'monestary' as monks began the making of it.
                          >>>>
                          So it's a false cognate of the province in Ireland?  I see...
                           
                          Kass
                        • Kass McGann
                          ... be ... missionaries. ... part of ... it ... just ... not ... seerved ... that ... Storks, herons, egrets are magical birds to the Irish. Serving one at
                          Message 12 of 24 , May 7, 2001
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                            > could be, I would consider most stories on origins of stuff like this to
                            be
                            > hearsay, but I would not be surprised if the monks were Irish
                            missionaries.
                            > The white martyres were pretty common on the continent during the early
                            part of
                            > the SCA period. It's not really my forte eather. I haven't worried about
                            it
                            > much since reading a comment that the Irish were very omniverous and ate
                            just
                            > about anything that swam, flew, or walked on four legs, though they were
                            not
                            > happy when an English king served stork to a gathering of chieftains. The
                            > source wasn't clear if this was due to a food taboo or because it was
                            seerved
                            > by a sassanach. I really wish I could have taken my library with me on
                            that
                            > last move, I don't have my sources to hand.

                            Storks, herons, egrets are "magical" birds to the Irish. Serving one at
                            dinner, I expect, would have been like serving beef to people from Delhi...

                            Kass
                          • Kass McGann
                            Back in the seventh century the monks of the Monasterium Confluentes, located in what is now called Munster Valley, invented Munster Kaes in order to
                            Message 13 of 24 , May 7, 2001
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                              Back in the seventh century the monks of the "Monasterium Confluentes," located in what is now called Munster Valley, invented "Munster Kaes" in order to preserve milk and feed the great numbers of people crowding round the monastery.
                              Ever since then, Alsace and Lorraine have put their talents together to produce a unique cheese. Since the herds grazed on the stubble fields on the Lorraine-side of the Vosges Massif, and the rent for these fields,
                              payable in the form of a day's production of cheese to the Duke of Lorraine, was paid in Gérardmer ("Géromé" in the Vosges dialect), "Munster Kaes" also came to be known as Géromé" as of the eighth century.

                              Although, this and many other cheeses were then passed through Europe, one cannot be certain when it reached the Irish.
                              >>>>
                              Interestingly enough, the modern Irish word for cheese is "cais" (said "kash").  Coincidence?
                               
                              Kass
                            • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
                              ... Interesting etymology here. Despina Munster Kaes also came to be known as Géromé as of the eighth century. Although, this and many other cheeses were
                              Message 14 of 24 , May 7, 2001
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                                "Munster Kaes" also came to be known as Géromé" as of the eighth century.

                                Although, this and many other cheeses were then passed through Europe, one cannot be certain when it reached the Irish.
                                >>>>
                                Interestingly enough, the modern Irish word for cheese is "cais" (said "kash").  Coincidence?

                                Interesting etymology here.

                                Despina

                              • caoilte
                                ... That makes sense. Wasn t munster called Mumu back then? Caoilte
                                Message 15 of 24 , May 7, 2001
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                                  Kass McGann wrote:

                                  Munster is actually from 'monestary' as monks began the making of it.
                                  >>>>So it's a false cognate of the province in Ireland?  I see... Kass
                                  That makes sense.  Wasn't munster called Mumu back then?

                                  Caoilte

                                • caoilte
                                  ... Swans would likely be added to that list then? Caoilte
                                  Message 16 of 24 , May 7, 2001
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                                    Kass McGann wrote:

                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Storks, herons, egrets are "magical" birds to the Irish. Serving one at
                                    > dinner, I expect, would have been like serving beef to people from Delhi...
                                    >
                                    > Kass
                                    >

                                    Swans would likely be added to that list then?

                                    Caoilte
                                  • caoilte
                                    ... Cheese, cais, kaes, no coincidence. What we have here are a bunch of Indo-Europeans. Anyone know what the Hindi or Farsi for cheese is? I would wager
                                    Message 17 of 24 , May 7, 2001
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                                      Kass McGann wrote:

                                      Back in the seventh century the monks of the "Monasterium Confluentes," located in what is now called Munster Valley, invented "Munster Kaes" in order to preserve milk and feed the great numbers of people crowding round the monastery.
                                      Ever since then, Alsace and Lorraine have put their talents together to produce a unique cheese. Since the herds grazed on the stubble fields on the Lorraine-side of the Vosges Massif, and the rent for these fields,
                                      payable in the form of a day's production of cheese to the Duke of Lorraine, was paid in Gérardmer ("Géromé" in the Vosges dialect), "Munster Kaes" also came to be known as Géromé" as of the eighth century.

                                      Although, this and many other cheeses were then passed through Europe, one cannot be certain when it reached the Irish.
                                      >>>>Interestingly enough, the modern Irish word for cheese is "cais" (said "kash").  Coincidence? Kass

                                      Cheese, cais, kaes, no coincidence.  What we have here are a bunch of Indo-Europeans.  Anyone know what the Hindi or Farsi for cheese is?  I would wager that cheese is older than the divergence of the Indo-European languages.

                                      Caoilte

                                    • s_krasley@recordtrak.com
                                      They need that much butter for all the D**n boiled pototes I had to eat. I know they aren t period, and had the Irish had them back then they could have thrown
                                      Message 18 of 24 , May 7, 2001
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                                        They need that much butter for all the D**n boiled pototes I had to
                                        eat. I know they aren't period, and had the Irish had them back then
                                        they could have thrown them at the English.
                                        Bog butter also makes for good door stops, or projectiles on
                                        trebuchets.

                                        All the Irish receipes I have are 1850 or newer. Sorry.
                                        - Brynn


                                        I don't think cheese was big in
                                        > Ireland (butter was and we have much bog butter in museum
                                        basements). But
                                        > again, not my forte...
                                        >
                                        > Kass
                                      • Kass McGann
                                        That makes sense. Wasn t munster called Mumu back then? ... More like Mooin , but yeah (I forget who mistranslated it Mumu but it never fails to crack me
                                        Message 19 of 24 , May 7, 2001
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                                          That makes sense.  Wasn't munster called Mumu back then?
                                          >>>>
                                          More like "Mooin", but yeah (I forget who mistranslated it "Mumu" but it never fails to crack me up!).
                                           
                                          Kass
                                        • Kass McGann
                                          ... Different category, but same list... Kass
                                          Message 20 of 24 , May 7, 2001
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                                            > Swans would likely be added to that list then?

                                            Different category, but same list...

                                            Kass
                                          • caoilte
                                            ... That s a relief. I hated the thought that my ancestors were running around saying they were from Mumu. Mooin sounds MUCH nicer. Not as nice as Oriel,
                                            Message 21 of 24 , May 7, 2001
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                                              Kass McGann wrote:

                                              That makes sense.  Wasn't munster called Mumu back then?>>>>More like "Mooin", but yeah (I forget who mistranslated it "Mumu" but it never fails to crack me up!). Kass
                                              That's a relief.  I hated the thought that my ancestors were running around saying they were from Mumu.  Mooin sounds MUCH nicer.  Not as nice as Oriel, but still an improvement.

                                              Caoilte

                                            • Kass McGann
                                              That s a relief. I hated the thought that my ancestors were running around saying they were from Mumu. Mooin sounds MUCH nicer. Not as nice as Oriel, but
                                              Message 22 of 24 , May 7, 2001
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                                                That's a relief.  I hated the thought that my ancestors were running around saying they were from Mumu.  Mooin sounds MUCH nicer.  Not as nice as Oriel, but still an improvement.
                                                >>>>
                                                If I'm not mistaken, it's a mispronunciation based on the way it is written in Irish.  The second "m" is supposed to be lenited which modern Irish speakers write as "mh" but used to be written as a dot over the "m".  If you don't understand that a lentited "m" is pronounced like a "w" (and in this case, more like "oo"), it's an easy mistake to make.
                                                 
                                                I think you can thank the Victorian Era "Celtic Renaissance" for that little embarassment...
                                                 
                                                Kass
                                              • unclrashid@aol.com
                                                ... basements). But ... Bog Butter? (it boggles the imagination) I m really curious now. What is bog butter? Rashid
                                                Message 23 of 24 , May 7, 2001
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                                                  --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "Kass McGann" <historian@r...> wrote:

                                                  > I don't think cheese was big in
                                                  > Ireland (butter was and we have much bog butter in museum
                                                  basements). But
                                                  > again, not my forte...
                                                  >
                                                  > Kass

                                                  Bog Butter? (it boggles the imagination) I'm really curious now.
                                                  What is bog butter?

                                                  Rashid
                                                • Kass McGann
                                                  ... They buried wooden canisters of butter in the bog to refrigerate it. =) Kass
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , May 7, 2001
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                                                    > Bog Butter? (it boggles the imagination) I'm really curious now.
                                                    > What is bog butter?

                                                    They buried wooden canisters of butter in the bog to "refrigerate" it. =)

                                                    Kass
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