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Re: [Authentic_SCA] medieval Court Etiquette - "Your Grace"?

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  • Melisende Fitzwalter
    MODERATOR NOTE: As a courtesy to those members who receive their list mail in digest form, we request that you do not top post. Please trim portions of
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 6, 2009
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      MODERATOR NOTE: As a courtesy to those members who receive their list mail in digest form, we request that you do not top post. Please trim portions of previous posts that do not require repetition. Thank you.
      Jehanne de Wodeford, Pacific Time Zone Moderator. (REPEATED MESSAGE DELETED)

      Greetings Lord Matthew,
       
      The replies here have pretty much illustrated the change of fashion of address towards Kings and Queens of England over the ages from Your Grace to Your Majesty.  Just one small detail which you might find interesting.  As far as my research on this matter has gone, I believe that it was Richard II who first insisted on the title Your Majesty, whereas his antecedents had always been happy with Your Grace.  Similarly he was also the first King who had felt the need to have a bodyguard about his person.  The Barons were not best pleased with this new title as they saw it as an attempt to dominate and usurp their traditional freedoms.  Certain other things he did during his reign did not help his cause either!
       
      I believe that due to the associations, it was several reigns later before a King again used that title.
       
      These small facts I know, as my persona lived during the reign of Richard II.
       
      Yours,
      Melisende
    • Ann Catelli
      At least in some cases, the inferior was kissing not the hand of the superior, but his ring of office. This was the case until at least after World War II in
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 6, 2009
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        At least in some cases, the inferior was kissing not the hand of the superior, but his ring of office.
        This was the case until at least after World War II in Italy, where a bishop or archbishop's episcopal ring would get kissed. (source for this modern use is a fiction book series Don Camillo (iirc))

        In the later middle ages, that episcopal ring would nearly always be a reliquary, too, so the reveraunce would be directed to the office and to the saint, rather than the wearer directly.

        This is completely off the cuff--if you find actual references to your period and/or location of interest, follow that, by all means! ;)

        Ann in C%

        --- Marianne Perdomo wrote:

        > Also, it seems that both men and women would kiss the hands of their
        > superiors... something I've often fantasized about doing, but I fear
        > people would just find it too strange. I've thought of using a
        > "moorish style salute" which again in 15th c. Spain meant kissing
        > the hems of the robe.
        >
        > Leonor
      • Marianne Perdomo
        ... Yet another twist... in the 15th c. Spanish chivalric novel Tirant lo Blanc, the hero wants to kiss the princess s hand, but she refuses out of courtesy.
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 7, 2009
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          2009/9/7 Ann Catelli wrote:

          > At least in some cases, the inferior was kissing not the hand of the
          > superior, but his ring of office.


          Yet another twist... in the 15th c. Spanish chivalric novel Tirant lo Blanc,
          the hero wants to kiss the princess's hand, but she refuses out of courtesy.
          He gets her ladies to plead for him and finally the lady allows this... but
          she doesn't let him kiss the "outside" of her hand, as that would be a sign
          of lordship, but the "inside" of the hand instead, as that's a sign of
          love...

          While a novel, this is very reallistic fiction. At one point Tirant, who's
          tourneying in Great Britain, goes back to his parents' home in Gaul because
          he needs more money before travelling to a challenge in Scorland. He often
          wins battles by his wits, too, though of course he's an amazing fighter, too
          ;) Somebody should turn this into a film trilogy, as it's really a fun book.



          Leonor


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • lariandrobert@fuse.net
          ... This http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirant_lo_Blanc_(film) ? Malcolm
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 7, 2009
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            ---- Marianne Perdomo <marianne@...> wrote:
            > ;) Somebody should turn this into a film trilogy,


            This http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirant_lo_Blanc_(film) ?
            Malcolm
          • Marianne Perdomo
            2009/9/8 ... No, a properly made one ;) To be fair, I was eager to watch that but after reading the reviews I decided I d wait until I could
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 8, 2009
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              2009/9/8 <lariandrober>

              > ---- Marianne Perdomo wrote:
              > > ;) Somebody should turn this into a film trilogy, as it's really a fun
              > book.
              > > Leonor
              > This http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirant_lo_Blanc_(film)<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirant_lo_Blanc_%28film%29>?
              >

              No, a properly made one ;)

              To be fair, I was eager to watch that but after reading the reviews I
              decided I'd wait until I could catch it on for free or just about... :( but
              then I haven't managed.
              It really needs the action scenes: the tourneys, the battles,... which I
              understand this lacks completely. It's a part action, romance and comedy
              which makes it balanced, and also establishes Tirant as a proper hero.

              Cheers!


              Leonor


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Michael Hurley
              ... I d love to know your source for this. I, too, have a Ricardian persona and always enjoy finding new info to round out my knowledge. Thanks! -- Auf
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 8, 2009
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                On Sep 6, 2009, at 4:22 PM, Melisende Fitzwalter wrote:

                > Greetings Lord Matthew,
                >
                > The replies here have pretty much illustrated the change of fashion
                > of address towards Kings and Queens of England over the ages from
                > Your Grace to Your Majesty. Just one small detail which you might
                > find interesting. As far as my research on this matter has gone, I
                > believe that it was Richard II who first insisted on the title Your
                > Majesty, whereas his antecedents had always been happy with Your
                > Grace. Similarly he was also the first King who had felt the need
                > to have a bodyguard about his person. The Barons were not best
                > pleased with this new title as they saw it as an attempt to dominate
                > and usurp their traditional freedoms. Certain other things he did
                > during his reign did not help his cause either!


                I'd love to know your source for this. I, too, have a Ricardian
                persona and always enjoy finding new info to round out my knowledge.
                Thanks!
                --
                Auf wiedersehen!
                Michael
                ______________________________________________________
                "..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."

                "Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
                of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
                women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"

                "..No."

                "Why am I the only person that has that dream?"

                -Real Genius
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