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Re: [Authentic_SCA] medieval Court Etiquette - "Your Grace"?

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  • kittencat3@aol.com
    I believe that His Grace the King fell out of favor beginning in the 16th century and was gradually replaced by His Majesty, with His Grace being
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 6, 2009
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      I believe that "His Grace the King" fell out of favor beginning in the
      16th century and was gradually replaced by "His Majesty," with "His Grace"
      being reserved for dukes. I may be wrong, though - any heralds out there?

      Sarah Davies


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Marianne Perdomo
      Greetings! I can t help with the His Grace question but I get the impression that in medieval times royal forms of address either went through various
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 6, 2009
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        Greetings!

        I can't help with the "His Grace" question but I get the impression that in
        medieval times royal forms of address either went through various fashions
        or weren't as standardised as in recent times. For example, in Spanish 15th
        c. usage they often talk of "His Highness the King". Also, it seems that
        both men and women would kiss the hands of their superiors... something I've
        often fantasized about doing, but I fear people would just find it too
        strange. I've thought of using a "moorish style salute" which again in the
        15th c. Spain meant kissing the hems of the robe.

        Maybe royalty could inform us not only of their more normal whims but
        whether the're happy to follow period protocol ;) I for one, dream of one
        day doing "royal service" at a table, where everything is served with
        reverences and kissing of towels and such. Would be lots of work, but quite
        an experience. In a small shire such as ours, though, it'll probably have to
        remain a dream.

        Your servant,

        Leonor

        P.D. By the way, nice article on banners in the Dragon's Tale :) Thank you
        and thanks to the Chonicler for making space for such stuff :)


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • julian wilson
        Gentle Lady Leonor, thank you for your reply. Maybe it DID have to do with Royal preferences. In Insulae Draconis , the Populace does have the opportunity to
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 6, 2009
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          Gentle Lady Leonor,
          thank you for your reply. Maybe it DID have to do with Royal preferences.

          In Insulae Draconis , the Populace does have the opportunity to do such period things - and many of us like to do them because they add to the "atmosphere". My Lady and I have gained some small reputation for our attention to authenticity, and attempt to use Early Modern English at events whenever possible, this seeming to be the "lingua franca" of Drachenwald, - along with many such period gestures [as you mention] of Courtesy and Etiquette, now almost forgotten, - which we are trying - in our own small way, - to re-introduce, - hopefully inspiring the Populace by our own example.

          Many thanks for your comment  about my little contribution to the Dragon's Tale. It's always nice to get feedback.

          Servus,
           Matthew Baker

          --- On Sun, 6/9/09, Marianne Perdomo <marianne@...> wrote:



          I can't help with the "His Grace" question but I get the impression that in
          medieval times royal forms of address either went through various fashions
          or weren't as standardised as in recent times. For example, in Spanish 15th
          c. usage they often talk of "His Highness the King". Also, it seems that
          both men and women would kiss the hands of their superiors... something I've
          often fantasized about doing, but I fear people would just find it too
          strange. I've thought of using a "moorish style salute" which again in the
          15th c. Spain meant kissing the hems of the robe.

          Maybe royalty could inform us not only of their more normal whims but
          whether the're happy to follow period protocol ;) I for one, dream of one
          day doing "royal service" at a table, where everything is served with
          reverences and kissing of towels and such. Would be lots of work, but quite
          an experience. In a small shire such as ours, though, it'll probably have to
          remain a dream.

          Your servant,

          Leonor

          P.D. By the way, nice article on banners in the Dragon's Tale :) Thank you
          and thanks to the Chonicler for making space for such stuff :)


          ------------------------------------

          ----------------------------------------------------
          This is the Authentic SCA eGroupYahoo! Groups Links





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Chris Laning
          ... Here s what I learned from Mistress Michaela de Neuville (OL), who has been the fount-of-all-wisdom on precedence and titles in the Renaissance Guild I ve
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 6, 2009
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            On Sep 6, 2009, at 7:12 AM, julian wilson wrote:

            > I have a query concerning medieval Court Etiquette, which I hope you
            > learned Gentles can answer for me.
            > During my research into late-15th Century History - [specifically
            > the Court of King Henry VII, wherein my SCA Persona had his Life as
            > a member of "the Kynges affinity"] - via contemporary letters, and
            > official documents, - I have found a number of occasions where
            > Sovereign Princes, - King Henry VII, King Louis XI of France, and
            > Duke François II of Brittany amongst them - are referred to as "
            > His Grace" or, in contemporarily-reported verbatim conversations,
            > addressed as "Your Grace".
            > I can find no clues in the modern Etiquette-reference Sites I've
            > searched online - to the medieval usage.. And I find it puzzling.
            > All the MODERN references I've viewed online don't mention this
            > form of Noble Title/Address in connection with Ruling Sovereigns -
            > only in connection with Duchies and Archbishops.
            > This humble veteran soldier has had occasion to hold converse with
            > Their Draconic Majesties of Drachenwald at a number of Events - and
            > in keeping with our growing SCA reputation for "authenticity", my
            > Lady and I would like to know when this usage to a Ruling Prince
            > became obsolete.


            Here's what I learned from Mistress Michaela de Neuville (OL), who has
            been the fount-of-all-wisdom on precedence and titles in the
            Renaissance Guild I've belonged to for many years. (She's one of those
            amazing Laurels who was elevated in, I believe, A.S. Ten and has just
            kept right on researching, learning, et cetera. I'm also biased in
            favor of her scholarship because I was her apprentice ;)

            Up through approximately the late 15th and early 16th century, Kings,
            Princes, and Dukes (keeping in mind that Duke started out as a mostly-
            royal title) _were_ commonly addressed as "Your Grace." So were
            Bishops, who ranked as "Princes of the Church."

            Originally, "Your Majesty" was a title reserved for Emperors, not mere
            (!) kings. (In the same way, BTW, crowns with two intersecting arches
            were Imperial crowns; the crowns of kings and queens had one arch or
            none.)

            In the 16th century, and still more in the early 17th, it became a fad
            for kings to style themselves as Emperors, i.e. supreme rulers subject
            to no one on earth. (Kings were in theory subject to an emperor, for
            instance the Holy Roman Emperor, or to the Pope.) Of course, once one
            king started doing this, all the others had to follow suit to keep
            their status.

            While there are records of earlier sovereigns occasionally being
            referred to as "Your Majesty" (Henry VIII, IIRC?) James the First of
            England was the first English monarch to insist on that title. Queen
            Elizabeth I definitely preferred "Your Grace."

            BTW, James also changed the livery colors of the royal house from the
            Tudor green and white to the Stuart red and gold, logically enough --
            but it's interesting that they have remained red and gold ever since.
            Also, David Cressy (I think it was) reported that during James's
            reign, those who harked back to the days of Elizabeth are recorded as
            commenting, "Elizabeth was King: now is James Queen!"

            ____________________________________________________________

            O (Dame) Christian de Holacombe, OL - Shire of Windy Meads
            + Kingdom of the West - Chris Laning <claning@...>
            http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com
            a.k.a. Christian Ashley, gentlewoman to Dorothy, Lady Stafford
            Guild of St. George, Northern California
            ____________________________________________________________
          • Melisende Fitzwalter
            MODERATOR NOTE: As a courtesy to those members who receive their list mail in digest form, we request that you do not top post. Please trim portions of
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 6, 2009
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              MODERATOR NOTE: As a courtesy to those members who receive their list mail in digest form, we request that you do not top post. Please trim portions of previous posts that do not require repetition. Thank you.
              Jehanne de Wodeford, Pacific Time Zone Moderator. (REPEATED MESSAGE DELETED)

              Greetings Lord Matthew,
               
              The replies here have pretty much illustrated the change of fashion of address towards Kings and Queens of England over the ages from Your Grace to Your Majesty.  Just one small detail which you might find interesting.  As far as my research on this matter has gone, I believe that it was Richard II who first insisted on the title Your Majesty, whereas his antecedents had always been happy with Your Grace.  Similarly he was also the first King who had felt the need to have a bodyguard about his person.  The Barons were not best pleased with this new title as they saw it as an attempt to dominate and usurp their traditional freedoms.  Certain other things he did during his reign did not help his cause either!
               
              I believe that due to the associations, it was several reigns later before a King again used that title.
               
              These small facts I know, as my persona lived during the reign of Richard II.
               
              Yours,
              Melisende
            • Ann Catelli
              At least in some cases, the inferior was kissing not the hand of the superior, but his ring of office. This was the case until at least after World War II in
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 6, 2009
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                At least in some cases, the inferior was kissing not the hand of the superior, but his ring of office.
                This was the case until at least after World War II in Italy, where a bishop or archbishop's episcopal ring would get kissed. (source for this modern use is a fiction book series Don Camillo (iirc))

                In the later middle ages, that episcopal ring would nearly always be a reliquary, too, so the reveraunce would be directed to the office and to the saint, rather than the wearer directly.

                This is completely off the cuff--if you find actual references to your period and/or location of interest, follow that, by all means! ;)

                Ann in C%

                --- Marianne Perdomo wrote:

                > Also, it seems that both men and women would kiss the hands of their
                > superiors... something I've often fantasized about doing, but I fear
                > people would just find it too strange. I've thought of using a
                > "moorish style salute" which again in 15th c. Spain meant kissing
                > the hems of the robe.
                >
                > Leonor
              • Marianne Perdomo
                ... Yet another twist... in the 15th c. Spanish chivalric novel Tirant lo Blanc, the hero wants to kiss the princess s hand, but she refuses out of courtesy.
                Message 7 of 12 , Sep 7, 2009
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                  2009/9/7 Ann Catelli wrote:

                  > At least in some cases, the inferior was kissing not the hand of the
                  > superior, but his ring of office.


                  Yet another twist... in the 15th c. Spanish chivalric novel Tirant lo Blanc,
                  the hero wants to kiss the princess's hand, but she refuses out of courtesy.
                  He gets her ladies to plead for him and finally the lady allows this... but
                  she doesn't let him kiss the "outside" of her hand, as that would be a sign
                  of lordship, but the "inside" of the hand instead, as that's a sign of
                  love...

                  While a novel, this is very reallistic fiction. At one point Tirant, who's
                  tourneying in Great Britain, goes back to his parents' home in Gaul because
                  he needs more money before travelling to a challenge in Scorland. He often
                  wins battles by his wits, too, though of course he's an amazing fighter, too
                  ;) Somebody should turn this into a film trilogy, as it's really a fun book.



                  Leonor


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                • lariandrobert@fuse.net
                  ... This http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirant_lo_Blanc_(film) ? Malcolm
                  Message 8 of 12 , Sep 7, 2009
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                    ---- Marianne Perdomo <marianne@...> wrote:
                    > ;) Somebody should turn this into a film trilogy,


                    This http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirant_lo_Blanc_(film) ?
                    Malcolm
                  • Marianne Perdomo
                    2009/9/8 ... No, a properly made one ;) To be fair, I was eager to watch that but after reading the reviews I decided I d wait until I could
                    Message 9 of 12 , Sep 8, 2009
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                      2009/9/8 <lariandrober>

                      > ---- Marianne Perdomo wrote:
                      > > ;) Somebody should turn this into a film trilogy, as it's really a fun
                      > book.
                      > > Leonor
                      > This http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirant_lo_Blanc_(film)<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirant_lo_Blanc_%28film%29>?
                      >

                      No, a properly made one ;)

                      To be fair, I was eager to watch that but after reading the reviews I
                      decided I'd wait until I could catch it on for free or just about... :( but
                      then I haven't managed.
                      It really needs the action scenes: the tourneys, the battles,... which I
                      understand this lacks completely. It's a part action, romance and comedy
                      which makes it balanced, and also establishes Tirant as a proper hero.

                      Cheers!


                      Leonor


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Michael Hurley
                      ... I d love to know your source for this. I, too, have a Ricardian persona and always enjoy finding new info to round out my knowledge. Thanks! -- Auf
                      Message 10 of 12 , Sep 8, 2009
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                        On Sep 6, 2009, at 4:22 PM, Melisende Fitzwalter wrote:

                        > Greetings Lord Matthew,
                        >
                        > The replies here have pretty much illustrated the change of fashion
                        > of address towards Kings and Queens of England over the ages from
                        > Your Grace to Your Majesty. Just one small detail which you might
                        > find interesting. As far as my research on this matter has gone, I
                        > believe that it was Richard II who first insisted on the title Your
                        > Majesty, whereas his antecedents had always been happy with Your
                        > Grace. Similarly he was also the first King who had felt the need
                        > to have a bodyguard about his person. The Barons were not best
                        > pleased with this new title as they saw it as an attempt to dominate
                        > and usurp their traditional freedoms. Certain other things he did
                        > during his reign did not help his cause either!


                        I'd love to know your source for this. I, too, have a Ricardian
                        persona and always enjoy finding new info to round out my knowledge.
                        Thanks!
                        --
                        Auf wiedersehen!
                        Michael
                        ______________________________________________________
                        "..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."

                        "Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
                        of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
                        women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"

                        "..No."

                        "Why am I the only person that has that dream?"

                        -Real Genius
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