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Elizabethan Breeches and Stuff

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  • Christopher J
    Hi all. My wonderful wife is making me a pair of breeches (venetians) so I can stop using the draw string pants (who are not long for this world), and my 18th
    Message 1 of 15 , Aug 7, 2009
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      Hi all. My wonderful wife is making me a pair of breeches (venetians) so I can stop using the draw string pants (who are not long for this world), and my 18th century style breeches. This is good, but I've a problem or two...

      Firstly, Elizabethan breeches (common breeches) stop above the knee, yes? This is my understanding, anyway (would love to be wrong). So, what did they wear on their legs below that? I assume stockings, but I would have to have a pair custom made. I'm 6'4", and the over-the-knee (ha!) stockings I have bunch behind my knees, cutting off the blood unless I roll them down. I though about chauses, but I'm just not sure that's gonna look right.

      So, my question is, what does a tall man who can't get custom made stockings wear below the breeches that will look correct? I'm going to be wearing shoes as opposed to boots, so there's no hiding from the cuff to the ankle.

      Am I over complicating this?

      All helpful suggestions are appreciated.

      Thanks,
      Christopher






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • kazoshea@aol.com
      MODERATOR NOTE: As a courtesy to the many members who receive their list mail in digest form, we request that you not top-post (stick your response to the top
      Message 2 of 15 , Aug 7, 2009
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        MODERATOR NOTE: As a courtesy to the many members who receive their list mail in digest form, we request that you not top-post (stick your response to the top of one or more messages that came before it). Thank you. Jehanne de Wodeford, Pacific Timezone Moderator.
        (REPEATED MESSAGES DELETED)

        You could try a? pair of tights or as some men I know have done is they have bought large sized pantyhose and use those.
        I have used Jas. Townsend? stockings...here is the link to them...

        http://jas-townsend.com/product_info.php?cPath=5&products_id=240

        I have bought tights from here previoulsy with good results

        http://www.tightsgoddess.com/

        They get to above my knee and I use a garter about my upper calf to keep them up there.

        As far as them stopping above the knee...well that can be cheated with a bit and get to below to the knee just need to remember to give an extra bit of length so that the lower cuff sits below the knee and there is enough slack so that the crotch does not tear out the first time you try to take? knee while wearing them.

        Iago
      • Jennifer Kobayashi
        ... From the images I can find, there appears to be a variety of lengths. Some above the knee: http://elizabethangeek.com/costumereview/image.mhtml?image_id=72
        Message 3 of 15 , Aug 7, 2009
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          >From: Christopher J <ren_junkie@...>
          >Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Elizabethan Breeches and Stuff

          >>Firstly, Elizabethan breeches (common breeches) stop above the knee, yes? This is my understanding, anyway (would love to be wrong).

          From the images I can find, there appears to be a variety of lengths.
          Some above the knee:
          http://elizabethangeek.com/costumereview/image.mhtml?image_id=72

          Some at or below the knee:
          http://elizabethangeek.com/costumereview/image.mhtml?image_id=58
          http://people.southwestern.edu/~greenmue/emengsyll.html
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Kempe
          http://elizabethangeek.com/costumereview/image.mhtml?image_id=42
          http://elizabethangeek.com/costumereview/image.mhtml?image_id=37

          Hope this helps.

          Gwendolyn
        • JL Badgley
          ... Here s what I do: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/220589416/in/set-72157594244989651/ As a larger man, myself, these purchased venetians aren t quite
          Message 4 of 15 , Aug 7, 2009
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            On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 7:32 PM, Christopher J<ren_junkie@...> wrote:
            >> Firstly, Elizabethan breeches (common breeches) stop above the knee, yes?
            > This is my understanding, anyway (would love to be wrong). So, what did they
            > wear on their legs below that? I assume stockings, but I would have to have
            > a pair custom made. I'm 6'4", and the over-the-knee (ha!) stockings I have
            > bunch behind my knees, cutting off the blood unless I roll them down. I
            > though about chauses, but I'm just not sure that's gonna look right.
            >
            > So, my question is, what does a tall man who can't get custom made stockings
            > wear below the breeches that will look correct? I'm going to be wearing
            > shoes as opposed to boots, so there's no hiding from the cuff to the ankle.

            Here's what I do:

            http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/220589416/in/set-72157594244989651/

            As a larger man, myself, these purchased venetians aren't quite as
            large as I'd like--my understanding is they would end just below the
            knee (well, beyond the knee might be a better way to put it). The
            stockings are knit stockings of wool or linen (depending on various
            factors). Together, they work quite well for me, and obviate the need
            for hosen. In fact, a good set of hosen is one of the things I'm
            currently lacking (my last pair was, unfortunately, a bit of a
            failure, as much as I tried), though I have a decent pair of chausses
            for earlier work.

            -EGL
          • Brad Moore
            Christopher, If your wife is an experienced seamstress, and is adept at making patterns, pick up a copy of Janet Arnold s Patterns of Fashion: The Cut and
            Message 5 of 15 , Aug 8, 2009
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              Christopher, If your wife is an experienced seamstress, and is adept at making patterns, pick up a copy of Janet Arnold's Patterns of Fashion: The Cut and Construction of Clothes for Men and Women c. 1560-1620. There is a pattern for Venetians that can be sized to fit with some work. Also Tudor Tailor by Ninya Mikhaila is a good place to start. Juan Alcega's Tailor's Pattern Book of 1589gives period shapes for all sorts of garments from the 16th century, as well. If you want a purchased pattern, look up Kass McGann at https://www.reconstructinghistory.com/index.php?. Her patterns are well researched, and generally easy to follow, if you are an experienced seamstress or tailor. Her patterns still must be tailored to the body (any store bought pattern does), but they're good and well researched in my experience. Also, the examples of art work which have been posted to your response gives you an idea of the broad range of "venetians" worn during the
              late 16th century. Start looking at portraits, woodcuts, and other art examples from the period until you find what you like. Good luck!

              Brad Moore

              "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."
              - J.R.R. Tolkien




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            • Ruth
              ... Greetings! My Lord, who is 6 2 opts for men s ballet tights. They are designed for men, and so fit a tad better then women s pantyhose, or even women s
              Message 6 of 15 , Aug 8, 2009
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                >
                > So, my question is, what does a tall man who can't get custom made stockings wear below the breeches that will look correct? I'm going to be wearing shoes as opposed to boots, so there's no hiding from the cuff to the ankle.
                >

                Greetings! My Lord, who is 6'2" opts for men's ballet tights. They are designed for men, and so fit a tad better then women's pantyhose, or even women's ballet tights, and you are guaranteed that they are opaque, as often women's tights aren't necessarily opaque, and you can see the squished leg hair through the tight.

                I'm not sure where he got them, as he's had them for years (they don't get holes easily) but I imagine pretty much any dance/ballet supply store will have that sort of thing.
                Lade Rose Atherton
              • ren_junkie
                Thanks for the replies, everyone! Buying tights is right out. Buying any finished product is right out to be honest. Has to be home made due to cost
                Message 7 of 15 , Aug 8, 2009
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                  Thanks for the replies, everyone!

                  Buying tights is right out. Buying any finished product is right out to be honest. Has to be home made due to cost constraints.

                  The pic was very helpful, EGL. Thank you.

                  There period documentation was perfect. If I can go below the knee, there is no problem.

                  Sorry, my search-fu is terrible.

                  And Elizabethan Geek is great. Wish I would have known about that before. Woulda saved me much trouble.

                  Problem is solved then. Below the knee breeches it is.

                  Thanks everyone!

                  Christopher
                • lilinah@earthlink.net
                  ... The Venetians i ve seen are below the knee They sometimes extend to the upper calf, but are worn fastened loosely just below the knee. You don t want the
                  Message 8 of 15 , Aug 8, 2009
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                    Christopher wrote:
                    > My wonderful wife is making me a pair of breeches (venetians)...
                    > This is good, but I've a problem or two...
                    >
                    > Firstly, Elizabethan breeches (common breeches) stop above the knee, yes?

                    The Venetians i've seen are below the knee They sometimes extend to
                    the upper calf, but are worn fastened loosely just below the knee.
                    You don't want the band to be too tight, just enough to keep the
                    pants from drooping over your calf.

                    > So, what did they wear on their legs below that? I assume
                    >stockings, but I would have to have
                    > a pair custom made. I'm 6'4", and the over-the-knee (ha!) stockings
                    >I have bunch behind my
                    > knees, cutting off the blood unless I roll them down. I though
                    >about chauses, but I'm just not
                    > sure that's gonna look right.

                    With Venetians below the knee, you won't need over-the-knee socks.
                    --
                    Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                    the persona formerly known as Anahita
                    who used to be a Ren Fair actor
                  • Ann Franchi
                    MODERATOR NOTE: As a courtesy to the many members who receive their list mail in digest form, we request that you not top-post (stick your response to the top
                    Message 9 of 15 , Aug 9, 2009
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                      MODERATOR NOTE: As a courtesy to the many members who receive their list mail in digest form, we request that you not top-post (stick your response to the top of one or more messages that came before it). Thank you. Jehanne de Wodeford, Pacific Timezone Moderator.
                      (REPEATED MESSAGES DELETED)

                      In the US there is a chain of stores called Danskins.

                      They make and sell their own brand of dancing tights - I am sure they
                      would have men's tights as well.

                      They might even be online. Everyone else seems to be ......

                      Anitra

                      Try this page:

                      http://www.discountdance.com/spframe_set.php3?mf=/dancewear/page_DANSKIN_p1.html&camp=G_Danskin&ovmkt=VHVCGLKSIBH10ARL7NEQ2I8B0O&gclid=CO7hpZzjlpwCFQ6jagodfnlSdA

                      MT11 looks like something workable .............
                    • Ann Franchi
                      MODERATOR NOTE: As a courtesy to the many members who receive their list mail in digest form, we request that you not top-post (stick your response to the top
                      Message 10 of 15 , Aug 9, 2009
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                        MODERATOR NOTE: As a courtesy to the many members who receive their list mail in digest form, we request that you not top-post (stick your response to the top of one or more messages that came before it). Thank you. Jehanne de Wodeford, Pacific Timezone Moderator.
                        (REPEATED MESSAGES DELETED)

                        I also plugged 'men's tights' into the search engine and got a number
                        of good hits.

                        http://www.welovecolors.com/Shop/MensTights.htm

                        http://www.comfilon.com/catalogoptights.asp

                        Anitra
                      • gedney@OPTONLINE.NET
                        Personally, I like slops -- wide legged breeches, frequently mid-calf or lower, meant to be rolled up past the knee when working. The ancestor of
                        Message 11 of 15 , Aug 10, 2009
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                          Personally, I like "slops" -- wide legged breeches, frequently mid-calf or lower, meant to be rolled up past the knee when working.
                          The ancestor of "Bell-Bottoms"

                          Kass McGann at ReconstructingHistory.com has an "Elizabethan Sea Dogs" pattern that has them as an option, but really the pattern is a pretty simple alteration of "normal" breeches.


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Ruth
                          Date: Saturday, August 8, 2009 12:38 pm
                          Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Elizabethan Breeches and Stuff
                          To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com

                          >
                          > >
                          > > So, my question is, what does a tall man who can't get custom
                          > made stockings wear below the breeches that will look correct?
                          > I'm going to be wearing shoes as opposed to boots, so there's no
                          > hiding from the cuff to the ankle.
                          > >
                          >
                          > Greetings! My Lord, who is 6'2" opts for men's ballet tights.
                          > They are designed for men, and so fit a tad better then women's
                          > pantyhose, or even women's ballet tights, and you are guaranteed
                          > that they are opaque, as often women's tights aren't necessarily
                          > opaque, and you can see the squished leg hair through the tight.
                          >
                          > I'm not sure where he got them, as he's had them for years (they
                          > don't get holes easily) but I imagine pretty much any
                          > dance/ballet supply store will have that sort of thing.
                          > Lade Rose Atherton
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > ----------------------------------------------------
                          > This is the Authentic SCA eGroupYahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >


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                        • ren_junkie
                          As far as tights are concerned, like I said before, buying anything is right out for the time being. Which is why I didn t by Kass s 16th Century common Man s
                          Message 12 of 15 , Aug 10, 2009
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                            As far as tights are concerned, like I said before, buying anything is right out for the time being. Which is why I didn't by Kass's 16th Century common Man's patterns. Can only use patterns and fabrics on hand. Which also precludes the long slops. Don't have that much of any single fabric on hand. And one of the reasons my wife's not making the pluderhose pattern I have from RH.

                            Now that I know that below the knee is period accurate, it's no problem. I have a pattern for above the knee breeches that we'll just lengthen. Already have stockings. Because I'm 6'4", they're not as over the knee as they should be, but they're long enough if I can get the breeches below the knee.

                            I wish she were adept at drafting patterns. I'm working on getting her to go after that particular skill set. It's more an issue of confidence than anything. But I'll get her there. ;)

                            Thanks for all the help and suggestions everyone. the crisis has been averted =)

                            thanks,
                            Christopher
                          • Ann Franchi
                            MODERATOR NOTE: As a courtesy to the many members who receive their list mail in digest form, we request that you not top-post (stick your response to the top
                            Message 13 of 15 , Aug 10, 2009
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                              MODERATOR NOTE: As a courtesy to the many members who receive their list mail in digest form, we request that you not top-post (stick your response to the top of one or more messages that came before it). Thank you. Jehanne de Wodeford, Pacific Timezone Moderator.
                              (REPEATED MESSAGES DELETED)

                              I didn't think I'd be able to draft patterns either. A couple of
                              months ago, I wouldn't have known where to start. But thanks to my
                              teacher, Mistress Aspasia, I am not only creating patterns for myself
                              but showing a friend how to do it.

                              And if I can do it .....

                              Anitra
                              (I sew by hand because my sewing machine hates me ...)
                            • Dianne
                              I wish she were adept at drafting patterns. I m working on getting her to go after that particular skill set. It s more an issue of confidence than anything.
                              Message 14 of 15 , Aug 10, 2009
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                                I wish she were adept at drafting patterns. I'm working on getting her to go after that particular skill set. It's more an issue of confidence than anything. But I'll get her there. ;)>>

                                Or YOU could learn to draft patterns. You might find you enjoy it. :-)

                                Laurensa



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                              • ren_junkie
                                Drafting patterns for armour is quite enough for me, thank you ;). I don t really enjoy patterning all that much. And I can t STAND doing it for fabric. Stuff
                                Message 15 of 15 , Aug 11, 2009
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                                  Drafting patterns for armour is quite enough for me, thank you ;). I don't really enjoy patterning all that much. And I can't STAND doing it for fabric. Stuff just doesn't sit still...lol

                                  I know she could do it. It's convincing her to go out and learn it rom someone....that's the tricky bit.

                                  Thanks,
                                  Christopher
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