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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Stealth Laurel or Prepared Laurel?

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  • Amy Heilveil
    Personally, Just hit me with it. I m sure my husband would know in advance (being a leafy sort) so he d be able to do all the stuff he d feel is necessary. My
    Message 1 of 28 , Jan 20, 2009
      Personally,

      Just hit me with it. I'm sure my husband would know in advance (being
      a leafy sort) so he'd be able to do all the stuff he'd feel is
      necessary.

      My husband was hit with it as a surprise and, in retrospect, I think
      he's good with that.... we were about to leave the kingdom and they
      really wanted him done. While he didn't get to do the display of
      skill that he wanted to do for his ceremony/vigil, it was done
      amazingly well and he thoroughly enjoyed it. It didn't hurt that he
      later found out that the incoming monarchs and the outgoing monarchs
      (he was elevated at a coronation event) had a 'discussion' on who
      would get to officially call him in and who would get to actually do
      the elevating... good for the ego. :)

      Despina de la yeah, right
    • Sarah Michele Ford
      I used to say that I wanted to be surprised.... honestly, I think it s silly to pretend that people don t play what if - how many people really don t know
      Message 2 of 28 , Jan 20, 2009
        I used to say that I wanted to be surprised.... honestly, I think it's
        silly to pretend that people don't play "what if" - how many people really
        don't know what their answer to the Crown is going to be? As long as the
        Crown talks to the candidate's friends and family, it should be entirely
        possible to avoid someone declining elevation in court. My household has a
        tradition of the "in case of elevation, break glass" box. It may not be a
        literal box, but one of my first tasks as an apprentice was to communicate
        to my Laurel what my desires for my own hypothetical elevation would be.

        So anyway. Ideally, I would like to be surprised so that someone else can
        worry about the details of the ceremony. But since many of the people I
        would like to speak for me don't live in the same Kingdom that I do these
        days, I would prioritize having my friends there to speak for me over the
        surprise aspect.

        And having now been so very presumptuous as to comment on this matter AND to
        have recently purchased fabric to put in that "in case of elevation" box, I
        have guaranteed that I will never, ever, have cause to act on any of this.
        ;^)

        Alianor de R.
        --
        *****************************
        saramichelef@...
        http://snowplow.org/sarah/pers/
        http://alphasarah.livejournal.com
        http://www.flickr.com/people/sarahmichelef


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Chris Laning
        ... In the West, the distinction is: There is absolutely no problem with saying privately to one s friends and acquaintances that one would like to be a Laurel
        Message 3 of 28 , Jan 20, 2009
          Kathryn wrote:
          >Outlands current way of thought is to call the candidate into court and make
          >the offer. Most times some of the peerage there know ahead of time it is to
          >happen but not always the case. Talking about becoming a peer is almost a
          >taboo here -- you work because you want to - not for any award/reward...
          >award is then a surprise most times. If you talk about it, it is most times
          >considered negative by the circle. (not necessarily my personal opinion,
          >but the way of things!)

          In the West, the distinction is: There is absolutely no problem with saying privately to one's friends and acquaintances that one would like to be a Laurel or Pelican "someday." Or to be worthy of one (which might be a better way to put it).

          However (and it's a big however) -- talking loudly in public about how you think you're close to being Laureled/Pelicaned, how you're impatient that you haven't "got one yet", or complaining that "why does so-and-so have a Laurel/Pelican but not me" is regarded as very very negative.

          It is also true that people who are excellent at what they do and take a more mellow attitude ("I'm doing this because I love it, and awards are nice but I'm not holding my breath") are more likely to have a Peerage offered. That's because an obvious attitude that "it's all about *ME* and why don't *I* get all the attention" is regarded as a counter-productive position. It's also because people who are only in it for the "cookie" tend to get it and then drop out.

          And it's still a "surprise" if the Royalty offer you a Peerage in private: it's just not a *public* surprise.

          (Dame) Christian de Holacombe, OL (which I'm only mnentioning because it's relevant here)

          ____________________________________________________________
          0 Chris Laning
          | <claning@...>
          + Davis, California
          http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com
          ____________________________________________________________
        • Antonia Calvo
          ... Yes, quite-- and it can be a surprise to (nearly) everyone else if you keep schtum til the ceremony. -- Antonia di Benedetto Calvo ... Habeo metrum -
          Message 4 of 28 , Jan 20, 2009
            Chris Laning wrote:

            >And it's still a "surprise" if the Royalty offer you a Peerage in private: it's just not a *public* surprise.
            >


            Yes, quite-- and it can be a surprise to (nearly) everyone else if you
            keep schtum 'til the ceremony.

            --
            Antonia di Benedetto Calvo

            -----------------------------
            Habeo metrum - musicamque,
            hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
            -Georgeus Gershwinus
            -----------------------------
          • Carmen Beaudry
            ... That s what vigils are for. I was offered my Laurel as a surprise, and enjoyed that very much; however I requested and sat vigil for 2 months, and it
            Message 5 of 28 , Jan 20, 2009
              > I'm going to have to disagree with this and agree with Jehanne--
              > *everyone* needs a chance to think about whether they want to be a peer
              > and have the chance to say yes or no *privately*.
              >
              > --
              > Antonia di Benedetto Calvo

              That's what vigils are for. I was offered my Laurel as a surprise, and
              enjoyed that very much; however I requested and sat vigil for 2 months, and
              it wasn't just to prepare a nice ceremony. I spent that time thinking about
              whether I really wanted the job, whether I felt I could do it, and getting
              advice from the people I respected who were already peers. If, during that
              time, I had felt that I didn't really want it, I would have contacted the
              Crown privately and told them that my answer was no. So, I was surprised,
              but had the time and privacy to consider it, too.

              Melusine d'Argent
            • Heather Rose Jones
              Well, mostly I d have liked to be present. (it was long ago and we don t do that any more.) Tangwystyl
              Message 6 of 28 , Jan 20, 2009
                Well, mostly I'd have liked to be present. (it was long ago and we
                don't do that any more.)

                Tangwystyl

                On Jan 19, 2009, at 23:25, CatalinadeGata <gatan_oz@...> wrote:

                > What have people preferred? Would they have rather known before hand
                > or reveled in the surprise? Just a curious question.
                >
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                > This is the Authentic SCA eGroupYahoo! Groups Links
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              • Antonia Calvo
                ... Yup-- I was offerd a Pelican months ago-- a surprise to me, and not done in court, so I had the opportunity to think about whether or not I wanted to go
                Message 7 of 28 , Jan 20, 2009
                  Carmen Beaudry wrote:

                  >>I'm going to have to disagree with this and agree with Jehanne--
                  >>*everyone* needs a chance to think about whether they want to be a peer
                  >>and have the chance to say yes or no *privately*.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >That's what vigils are for. I was offered my Laurel as a surprise, and
                  >enjoyed that very much; however I requested and sat vigil for 2 months, and
                  >it wasn't just to prepare a nice ceremony. I spent that time thinking about
                  >whether I really wanted the job, whether I felt I could do it, and getting
                  >advice from the people I respected who were already peers. If, during that
                  >time, I had felt that I didn't really want it, I would have contacted the
                  >Crown privately and told them that my answer was no. So, I was surprised,
                  >but had the time and privacy to consider it, too.
                  >
                  >


                  Yup-- I was offerd a Pelican months ago-- a surprise to me, and not done
                  in court, so I had the opportunity to think about whether or not I
                  wanted to go through with it without an audience.


                  --
                  Antonia di Benedetto Calvo

                  -----------------------------
                  Habeo metrum - musicamque,
                  hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
                  -Georgeus Gershwinus
                  -----------------------------
                • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                  In a message dated 1/20/2009 2:26:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, gatan_oz@yahoo.com writes:
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jan 20, 2009
                    In a message dated 1/20/2009 2:26:27 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                    gatan_oz@... writes:

                    <<What have people preferred? Would they have rather known before hand or
                    reveled in the surprise? Just a curious question.>>

                    I was surprised, to the point of my husband managing to have me design my own
                    Laurel cloak without realizing it. Overall, I think I would rather have
                    known. There were people I would have liked to have there (and I suspect some
                    effort was made to get them there, or to at least involve them, as my best
                    friend, who lives in An Tir, sent a letter to speak for the Pelican and another
                    friend, from Lochac, sent a letter to speak for the Chivalry). And I would also
                    have liked to have made some arrangement that meant that either they would have
                    waited until after I was done being pregnant or before I was so pregnant. I
                    was very annoyed that the King flatly refused to allow me to kneel during any
                    part of the ceremony because of my pregnancy.


                    Brangwayna Morgan
                    Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                    Lancaster, PA
                    **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Kareina Talvi Tytär
                    ... Fortunately, it is possible to accomplish this, *and* be surprised. When I was still reasonably new to the SCA, but already quite addicted to the
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jan 23, 2009
                      Antonia di Benedetto Calvo wrote:

                      >I'm going to have to disagree with this and agree with Jehanne--
                      >*everyone* needs a chance to think about whether they want to be a peer
                      >and have the chance to say yes or no *privately*.

                      Fortunately, it is possible to accomplish this, *and* be
                      surprised. When I was still reasonably new to the SCA, but already
                      quite addicted to the hand-sewing and embroidery for which I
                      eventually received my leaves I made a point of telling a few of the
                      local laurels that, should I ever get to the point of being good
                      enough at my art to be worthy of being a laurel, I would prefer it to
                      be a surprise. Years elapsed, and it got to the point where some
                      non-laurels expressed surprise that I wasn't a laurel. A
                      knight/laurel friend of mine started making occasional suggestions
                      about my art using the same tone of voice he used with his squires
                      when he was telling them what he felt they needed to make the
                      transition in skill level necessary for knighthood. These clues gave
                      me time to think about the role of the order of the laurel, and how I
                      felt about it. I knew that my skills/research levels were improving,
                      and had plenty of room to continue to improve, but I also knew that I
                      was willing to accept the responsibilities associated with being a
                      member of the order should the Crown decide to admit me, so again, I
                      checked back in with some laurel friends and let them know that yes,
                      should it ever happen, I'd prefer to be surprised. A few more years
                      elapsed, and then, one day, when I truly wasn't expecting it, the
                      herald suddenly went into the "strength and stability of the Kingdom
                      is founded upon these virtues" speech, and I thought "that sounds
                      like a peerage ceremony", and continued stitching on my project du
                      jour. And the laurels were called up, and two sent out to find the
                      candidate in the crowd. As they walked out into the crowd, I turned
                      from my front row seat to see where they were going, and they doubled
                      back to me. I had long known that I was ready and willing to swear
                      the oath and undertake the duties, but they joy that went with the
                      feeling of "they noticed me" was incredible. Other people can have
                      their planed for months in advance ceremonies, I will always treasure
                      my "instant" elevation.

                      --Kareina
                      PS while I was still fairly new to the SCA at the start of the above
                      story, I was already a Royal Peer, having served as Princess of
                      Oertha at the tender age of 18, after only about six months active
                      within our organization, and another six to eight months as a
                      "fringe" participant--coming along to parts of events for a few
                      hours, but not attending any meetings/practices/workshops/etc.


                      http://kareina.livejournal.com/
                    • quokkaqueen
                      ... propose a historical solution. Have the laurels in the area, present their materials and presentations on one side of a site, and the would-be apprentices
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jan 24, 2009
                        > As a proposal for replacing or in addition to competitions, I would
                        propose a historical solution. Have the laurels in the area, present
                        their materials and presentations on one side of a site, and the
                        would-be apprentices (or just people that are working on some A&E
                        presentation subject) set up their work on the other.
                        <<snip>>

                        Apologies to flog the exhausted horse of competitions again, but I
                        just realised something -- what size usually would these competitions
                        or displays be? One or two 'entrants', or a dozen? A score?

                        I'm an A&S officer for my local group who is used to having
                        competitions with a single entrant. It isn't a simple problem of 'the
                        arts need encouragement', it's that people do lots of A&S stuff, and
                        never enter it. (I'm sure there are various reasons, like those
                        discussed here, for not entering.)

                        So, my two questions are, is there a minimum number of people you'd
                        need to get interested before these competition alternatives are
                        experimented with?
                        And, if you feel strongly about competitions or how A&S is being run
                        in your local group, have you spoken to your local A&S officer?

                        Honestly curious,
                        Asfridhr
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