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Hiring faire - proposed solution to competitions

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  • Eric Atkinson
    As a proposal for replacing or in addition to competitions, I would propose a historical solution. Have the laurels in the area, present their materials and
    Message 1 of 28 , Jan 16, 2009
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      As a proposal for replacing or in addition to competitions, I would propose a historical solution. Have the laurels in the area, present their materials and presentations on one side of a site, and the would-be apprentices (or just people that are working on some A&E presentation subject) set up their work on the other. The Laurels that are looking for apprentices could go over and look among the prospects for candidates that have similar interests and talk with them. The apprentices could do likewise with the Laurels as well. It would also be a great time for people who are already apprentices to present �masterworks� for judgment. Hopefully this would remove the competition and bring the Arts community together as a group. After all the knights can look for squires by watching the fighting on the field, watching an artisan at work would be difficult especially for the non-visual arts, like singing and bardic activities or dance.
      The general populous could come and meet the artisans and see the work being done, I know that I have commissioned several pieces during A&S competitions from people that I liked their work. There could be a people�s choice competition (I always found those just a form of applause) if desired.
      I am not in a position to implement this as a change, but would like to discuss such ideas.
      In service
      Eric Hawkwood

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • nerdgirl
      OK Now I assist under a very smart woman who is not a Laurel but is the smartest person I know for clothing (she even has made her living from it) So why look
      Message 2 of 28 , Jan 16, 2009
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        OK Now I assist under a very smart woman who is not a Laurel but is the
        smartest person I know for clothing (she even has made her living from it)
        So why look for a Laurel just look around at an event and find something
        you like, I have never been encouraged to enter an A&S anything. My
        Mistress (named from a 17th century event) always taught me clothing (not
        garb or costumes) were made to be worn and not put on a table. So look at
        people around you no matter what their title might be adn ask them a lot of
        questions You never know where your new mentor will come form To much
        emphasis is place on a Laurel. I never want to be an apprentice.
        Lady Magdalena
        Assistant number 1
        PS I love answering any and all questions about my Landsknecht clothing I
        will talk anyone's ear off
      • Zhara um Nikko
        MODERATOR NOTE: As a courtesy to those members who receive their list mail in digest form, we request that you do not top post. Please trim portions of
        Message 3 of 28 , Jan 19, 2009
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          MODERATOR NOTE: As a courtesy to those members who receive their list mail in digest form, we request that you do not top post. Please trim portions of previous posts that do not require repetition. Thank you.
          Jehanne de Wodeford, Pacific Time Zone Moderator.

          (REPEATED MESSAGE DELETED)
          Been lurking here a bit, and following this thread, and have come up
          with a few questions:

          We've all on this list either joined the SCA, or at least paid to walk
          in through troll at an event or two, correct? With that in mind, I
          ask of us: why did we join? And I also ask of us: did we join only
          to renounce the policies of the very club that we sought out?

          While there are certainly cases here and there of Laurels and other
          Peers doing things that are not very peer-like, the overall consensus
          among folks who join the SCA is that Peers are the big shots in this
          game we're playing, and we treat them as such. The fact that the vast
          majority of Laurels earned their peerage through good research and
          sound craftsmanship is just part of what makes it easy to give them
          the requested respect. No disrespect to talented people who have not
          yet made Laurel, but hey, why not give those leaves their due?

          I am puzzled at the notion of joining a club only to renounce it's
          traditions, snub it's activities, and to additionally proclaim that
          the club's most esteemed and senior members "ain't so special."

          Entering A&S, teaching a class, sending an article into an SCA
          publication, and yes, honoring Peers .... these are all examples of
          the kind of participation expected of SCA members. (something about
          being an educational non-profit, I'm guessing. not just 'cause it's
          nice.) For those of us so fortunate as to have the focus and interest
          in better quality historical research, the call to participate in
          those ways is even more pronounced.

          Perhaps being uncooperative, isolationist, and disrespectful is more
          historically accurate than participating, teaching, publishing, and
          honoring Peers.... but I don't think so.

          I coulda just stayed home and admired my own handiwork. Instead, I
          joined the SCA, so I could participate with everyone and play by the
          rules.


          Humbly and In Service,
          Ldy. Zhara um Nikko
        • Greg Lindahl
          ... I don t see that happening. But I do see that this discussion has gotten extremely off-topic, so I suggest that we stop talking about it. Yeah, yeah, my
          Message 4 of 28 , Jan 19, 2009
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            On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 01:57:25AM -0000, Zhara um Nikko wrote:

            > And I also ask of us: did we join only
            > to renounce the policies of the very club that we sought out?

            I don't see that happening. But I do see that this discussion has
            gotten extremely off-topic, so I suggest that we stop talking about
            it. Yeah, yeah, my fault for starting it.

            -- Gregory
          • Antonia Calvo
            ... Uhhh... what? ... I m not sure what your point is... I don t think anyone said that Peers shouldn t be treated with respect. ... Peers have earned the
            Message 5 of 28 , Jan 19, 2009
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              Zhara um Nikko wrote:

              >We've all on this list either joined the SCA, or at least paid to walk
              >in through troll at an event or two, correct? With that in mind, I
              >ask of us: why did we join? And I also ask of us: did we join only
              >to renounce the policies of the very club that we sought out?
              >
              >

              Uhhh... what?

              >While there are certainly cases here and there of Laurels and other
              >Peers doing things that are not very peer-like, the overall consensus
              >among folks who join the SCA is that Peers are the big shots in this
              >game we're playing, and we treat them as such. The fact that the vast
              >majority of Laurels earned their peerage through good research and
              >sound craftsmanship is just part of what makes it easy to give them
              >the requested respect. No disrespect to talented people who have not
              >yet made Laurel, but hey, why not give those leaves their due?
              >
              >

              I'm not sure what your point is... I don't think anyone said that Peers
              shouldn't be treated with respect.


              >I am puzzled at the notion of joining a club only to renounce it's
              >traditions, snub it's activities, and to additionally proclaim that
              >the club's most esteemed and senior members "ain't so special."
              >
              >


              Peers have earned the respect of other through various means, but they
              still put on their pants one leg at a time.


              >Entering A&S, teaching a class, sending an article into an SCA
              >publication, and yes, honoring Peers .... these are all examples of
              >the kind of participation expected of SCA members. (something about
              >being an educational non-profit, I'm guessing. not just 'cause it's
              >nice.) For those of us so fortunate as to have the focus and interest
              >in better quality historical research, the call to participate in
              >those ways is even more pronounced.
              >
              >

              Entering A&S, teaching a class, sending an article into an SCA publication are activities that some members do if they are interested-- same as fighting, event stewarding, and dishwashing. There is no SCA rule that says that anyone has to enter A&S comps or even that there have to be A&S comps. It's not the Society for Compulsory Activities.


              >Perhaps being uncooperative, isolationist, and disrespectful is more
              >historically accurate than participating, teaching, publishing, and
              >honoring Peers.... but I don't think so.
              >
              >

              Perhaps namecalling dircted at people whose outlook differs from yours
              is amazingly unhelpful.


              --
              Antonia di Benedetto Calvo

              -----------------------------
              Habeo metrum - musicamque,
              hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
              -Georgeus Gershwinus
              -----------------------------
            • wodeford
              ... What Corpora says: A. Society Events Defined The term Society event refers to tournaments, feasts, and other activities whereby participants can display
              Message 6 of 28 , Jan 19, 2009
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                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Zhara um Nikko" <zhara8@...> wrote:

                > Entering A&S, teaching a class, sending an article into an SCA
                > publication, and yes, honoring Peers .... these are all examples of
                > the kind of participation expected of SCA members.

                What Corpora says:
                "A. Society Events Defined
                The term "Society event" refers to tournaments, feasts, and other
                activities whereby participants can display the results of their
                researches into the culture and technology of the period in an
                environment which evokes the atmosphere of the pre-17th century
                European Middle Ages and Renaissance. It also refers to educational
                activities involving either one-time classes or ongoing Society
                university organizations, and meetings where participants share skills
                or discuss the business of the group.....

                B. Requirements for Participants at Society events
                Anyone may attend Society events provided he or she wears an attempt
                at pre-17th century clothing, conforms to the provisions in Corpora,
                and complies with any other requirements (such as site fees or
                waivers) which may be imposed. At business meetings and informal
                classes, the requirement to wear pre-17th century dress may be waived.
                All participants are expected to behave as ladies or gentlemen."

                That's it. That is ALL that is expected. Show up in an attempt at
                pre-17th century dress and behave as a lady or gentleman. Technically,
                if one shows up wrapped in a bed sheet and sits quietly in a corner
                for the entire event, the requirements for participation has been
                fulfilled, though I can't imagine it would be much fun.

                I teach. Sometimes at events, much more often on electronic SCA fora
                or via email.

                I write about any number of projects I work on and I share it at
                http://www.wodefordhall.com - because what I do should be available to
                SCA members, cosplayers, and anyone else who gives a rat's backside
                about said projects. (I did publish one of these in TI a number of
                years ago, but this way people can read it for free.)

                I don't need a single peer to mentor me because I prefer equal
                opportunity brain pickage (peer and non-peer alike) to limiting my
                options.

                Personally, I find competitions non-productive and aggravating. (I did
                use a recent kingdom championship as a bully pulpit to display some of
                my Japanese research and I managed, to my great glee and profound
                relief, to get away scot free without seeing a single judging sheet
                reduce my hard work to a bunch of arbitrary numbers or having to feel
                like my art was part of a horse race. If anyone saw my work and
                learned something from it, great. If not, great.)

                So I don't have to write it again, I append a link to an entry from my
                journal, written in answer to an Arts Minister who wanted me to drag
                something I made to use in my camp to a display and why I objected to
                doing so. Be sure to read the comments as well. I think you will find
                that a number of people have considered other ways to participate
                besides the ubiquitous A&S competition:
                http://gurdymonkey.livejournal.com/213461.html

                The strength of the SCA is its flexibility. You put in what you get
                out and if you want to dress up and party, and if you want to hit
                people with sticks, that's OK,and if you want to go sheep to shawl and
                put it on a table for all the world to see, that's ok, that's OK, and
                if you want to create and research items for your own use and not put
                it on a table where you can't use it, that's OK too.

                Jehanne de Wodeford, Armiger, artisan, devil's advocate
                West Kingdom
              • wodeford
                ... Yes, Master Gregory. (GRIN) Jehanne
                Message 7 of 28 , Jan 19, 2009
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                  --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Greg Lindahl <lindahl@...> wrote:
                  > I don't see that happening. But I do see that this discussion has
                  > gotten extremely off-topic, so I suggest that we stop talking about
                  > it. Yeah, yeah, my fault for starting it.

                  Yes, Master Gregory. (GRIN)

                  Jehanne
                • Amy Heilveil
                  ... Good Lady, I don t see that happening here. I see people pointing out that those who have been recognized as having specific knowledge or talents are not
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jan 19, 2009
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                    > I am puzzled at the notion of joining a club only to renounce it's
                    > traditions, snub it's activities, and to additionally proclaim that
                    > the club's most esteemed and senior members "ain't so special."

                    Good Lady,

                    I don't see that happening here. I see people pointing out that those
                    who have been recognized as having specific knowledge or talents are
                    not the only persons from whom one can learn.

                    Cu Respectivo,
                    Despina de la back to grading (college) papers
                  • christopher chastain
                    As someone that doesnt have a dog in this hunt, I think the message was dont sweat the A&S competitions and dont look at the belts or the shiny metal on their
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jan 19, 2009
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                      As someone that doesnt have a dog in this hunt, I think the message was "dont sweat the A&S competitions and dont look at the belts or the shiny metal on their heads". Am I wrong? Now the opposite side is if someone has busted their butt and did the dance of jumping thru the flaming hoops and got their belts they deserve the respect that their blood sweat and tears put in to it. Am I wrong? Both valid points to consider.

                      Yours in Humble Service,
                      Dmitrii Zarekoi Ivanov
                      "Do not scorn the weak cub. It might become the brutal tiger!" Mongol Proverb
                      "Only a hand that can grasp a sword may hold a sceptre!" Tatar Proverb
                    • Jeff gedney
                      ... I believe that I am living proof that you can get somewhere, and even gain a Peerage ( I just got my Laurel this weekend... I knew in advance and I am
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jan 19, 2009
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                        > Personally, I find competitions non-productive and aggravating. (I did
                        > use a recent kingdom championship as a bully pulpit to display some of
                        > my Japanese research and I managed, to my great glee and profound
                        > relief, to get away scot free without seeing a single judging sheet
                        > reduce my hard work to a bunch of arbitrary numbers or having to feel
                        > like my art was part of a horse race. If anyone saw my work and
                        > learned something from it, great. If not, great.)

                        I believe that I am living proof that you can get somewhere, and even gain a
                        Peerage ( I just got my Laurel this weekend... I knew in advance and I am
                        still surprised ), without entering competitions, sucking up, or behaving
                        like a general a$$ to people who seek you out (or at least behaving more
                        like an a$$ than I do, which I flatter myself to think that is not much).
                        I have entered one competition in all my SCA career.
                        I was the only entrant in the research paper category.
                        None of the judges read more than a few pages of my 72 page paper.
                        I did not win.
                        Didn't matter.
                        I got elevated to the peerage, anyway.

                        Why?
                        I learn, compulsively.
                        I teach what I know, compulsively.
                        I try to show that what I learn is fun, compulsively.

                        I have now realized that the main "peer like quality" that is desired in the
                        SCA to make someone a Peer, is "being contagious".
                        In other words it is that people want to share your enthusiasms and
                        "peer-like qualities" after knowing and learning from you. That comes
                        simply from spreading your joy.
                        Joy in what you learn. Joy in what you do. Joy in sharing it.
                        The more you get wrapped up in "winning" competitions, the more you are
                        concerned about getting a Peerage, the farther you are from obtaining it.
                        That goes for all SCA peers, Chivalry, Pelican or Laurel.

                        This is why some people who are masters at their art, but who do not teach
                        well or share what they know take a very long time to be recognized in the
                        SCA, and some mediocre shlubs (like me) who none-the-less compulsively
                        cannot stop sharing what they know, and expressing their joy at what they
                        learn become Peers faster. I have known fighters who have the ability to win
                        against any and all, even in Crown Lists, and who never will get elevated to
                        the chivalry.

                        > The strength of the SCA is its flexibility. You put in what you get
                        > out and if you want to dress up and party, and if you want to hit
                        > people with sticks, that's OK,and if you want to go sheep to shawl and
                        > put it on a table for all the world to see, that's ok, that's OK, and
                        > if you want to create and research items for your own use and not put
                        > it on a table where you can't use it, that's OK too.

                        And if you have fun doing it, that's all that counts.
                        Trust me.

                        Captain Elias Gedney, OL (<--- that feels pretty weird)
                        East Kingdom
                      • wodeford
                        ... Whoo! Congratulations, Captain! That s wonderful news. Jehanne de Wodeford
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jan 19, 2009
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                          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Jeff gedney <gedney@...> wrote:
                          >.... ( I just got my Laurel this weekend... I knew in advance and I am
                          > still surprised )....

                          Whoo! Congratulations, Captain! That's wonderful news.

                          Jehanne de Wodeford
                        • CatalinadeGata
                          What have people preferred? Would they have rather known before hand or reveled in the surprise? Just a curious question. Tash [Non-text portions of this
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jan 19, 2009
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                            What have people preferred? Would they have rather known before hand or reveled in the surprise? Just a curious question.

                            Tash





















                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Antonia Calvo
                            ... I m about to be elevated as Pelican, and I ve known for months. I wouldn t have it any other way. If it had come as a surprise in court, I would have
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jan 20, 2009
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                              CatalinadeGata wrote:
                              > What have people preferred? Would they have rather known before hand or reveled in the surprise? Just a curious question.
                              >


                              I'm about to be elevated as Pelican, and I've known for months. I
                              wouldn't have it any other way.

                              If it had come as a surprise in court, I would have been *mortified* and
                              very unhappy.

                              --
                              Antonia di Benedetto Calvo

                              -----------------------------
                              Habeo metrum - musicamque,
                              hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
                              -Georgeus Gershwinus
                              -----------------------------
                            • wodeford
                              In this writer s humble opinion, surprise peerage ceremonies are a barbarity. A peerage is not an award, it s a job offer. It should be treated as such. The
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jan 20, 2009
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                                In this writer's humble opinion, surprise peerage ceremonies are a
                                barbarity.

                                A peerage is not an award, it's a job offer. It should be treated as
                                such. The candidate should be invited to join the order with all due
                                privacy and discretion. Why? Because the candidate should be given
                                however much time he/she needs to consider whether he/she can
                                perform/continue to perform the duties the position entails. Further,
                                the candidate should be able to refuse the honor should he/she feel
                                unready or unable to perform said duties without public scrutiny,
                                embarrassment or other penalty.

                                Tuppenceworth,
                                Jehanne de Wodeford
                                West Kingdom
                              • Kathryn Ballard
                                I must add that it was the days of seek and destroy the candidate days back in May 1979 in Atenveldt. On the day of Ansteorra s first Crown Tourney, May 12th,
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jan 20, 2009
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                                  I must add that it was the days of seek and destroy the candidate days back in May 1979 in Atenveldt. On the day of Ansteorra's first Crown Tourney, May 12th, the Pelicans were called forward and sent out to bring the candidate before the Crown. Among them was Countess Bevin Fraser of Sterling, Society Seneschal at the time and mundanely Katherine Kurtz (Author of the Deryni books). I had the pleasure of meeting my living heroine once before at a Sci Fi convention in SLC and she had talked briefly with me and others before the morning court that day -- mistakenly congratulating me on receiving my Pelican............... embarrassed I had to admit I had not. So when the Pelicans were cruising through the crowd in morning court, I was TOTALLY overwhelmed when it was Countess Bevin who came up from behind and whispered it is you they want..................... I must say I do not remember anything of the ceremony, but the experience was totally one of the best days of my SCA career. I wouldn't have changed a thing.

                                  So, what I'd like to add is that it is totally up to the situation and the people involved as to a offering verses an on-the-spot surprise ceremony. It should never be dictated one way or the other is good. It is personal. Now, I got my Laurel a year later in the same manner. I can't remember much about that one at all - not because it was great but because it was not memoriable.

                                  IMHO
                                  Duchess Kathryn, Outlands

                                  **************************************************************************
                                • Antonia Calvo
                                  ... I m going to have to disagree with this and agree with Jehanne-- *everyone* needs a chance to think about whether they want to be a peer and have the
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jan 20, 2009
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                                    Kathryn Ballard wrote:
                                    > So, what I'd like to add is that it is totally up to the situation and the people involved as to a offering verses an on-the-spot surprise ceremony. It should never be dictated one way or the other is good. It is personal. Now, I got my Laurel a year later in the same manner. I can't remember much about that one at all - not because it was great but because it was not memoriable.
                                    >

                                    I'm going to have to disagree with this and agree with Jehanne--
                                    *everyone* needs a chance to think about whether they want to be a peer
                                    and have the chance to say yes or no *privately*.

                                    --
                                    Antonia di Benedetto Calvo

                                    -----------------------------
                                    Habeo metrum - musicamque,
                                    hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
                                    -Georgeus Gershwinus
                                    -----------------------------
                                  • Chris Laning
                                    ... Not that this is particularly authenticity-related, but: The way it currently works in the West, there are two customs that I think are helpful. One,
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jan 20, 2009
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                                      Antonia wrote:
                                      >I'm going to have to disagree with this and agree with Jehanne--
                                      >*everyone* needs a chance to think about whether they want to be a peer
                                      >and have the chance to say yes or no *privately*.

                                      Not that this is particularly authenticity-related, but:

                                      The way it currently works in the West, there are two customs that I think are helpful.

                                      One, anyone who ever thinks they *might* be a Peer someday is encouraged to tell their friends, SO, and mentors if any whether they would _prefer_ a surprise or not. (And if a surprise, who they would really like to have there.) The Royalty will ask before approaching the candidate.

                                      Two, the default in the West is for the Royalty to approach the candidate privately (NOT in Court) and make the offer. (I've seen three exceptions, where someone was called into a small Court (i.e. at a smallish event) and the offer was made there, but in two out of three cases I can remember, the candidate was someone well known for being able to handle surprises with poise.)

                                      It seems to me that anyone who SAYS they would prefer to be surprised should have that wish respected. The most common reason I've heard from those who prefer this option is that they don't want to have to think about it, make new clothing, agonize over whom to invite, and generally get a bad case of stage fright beforehand.

                                      I agree that a "Gotcha!" scenario can be a very upsetting way to get an award, but some people like it that way.

                                      ObAuthentic: From what I remember in studying the court of Elizabeth I, both surprise and non-surprise Peerages occurred -- though in that case it was at the whim of the monarch, not the candidate. And I could be remembering wrong.

                                      (Dame) Christian de Holacombe

                                      ____________________________________________________________
                                      0 Chris Laning
                                      | <claning@...>
                                      + Davis, California
                                      http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com
                                      ____________________________________________________________
                                    • Kathryn Ballard
                                      Outlands current way of thought is to call the candidate into court and make the offer. Most times some of the peerage there know ahead of time it is to
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Jan 20, 2009
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                                        Outlands current way of thought is to call the candidate into court and make
                                        the offer. Most times some of the peerage there know ahead of time it is to
                                        happen but not always the case. Talking about becoming a peer is almost a
                                        taboo here -- you work because you want to - not for any award/reward...
                                        award is then a surprise most times. If you talk about it, it is most times
                                        considered negative by the circle. (not necessarily my personal opinion,
                                        but the way of things!)

                                        Kathryn

                                        **************************************************************************
                                      • Amy Heilveil
                                        Personally, Just hit me with it. I m sure my husband would know in advance (being a leafy sort) so he d be able to do all the stuff he d feel is necessary. My
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Jan 20, 2009
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                                          Personally,

                                          Just hit me with it. I'm sure my husband would know in advance (being
                                          a leafy sort) so he'd be able to do all the stuff he'd feel is
                                          necessary.

                                          My husband was hit with it as a surprise and, in retrospect, I think
                                          he's good with that.... we were about to leave the kingdom and they
                                          really wanted him done. While he didn't get to do the display of
                                          skill that he wanted to do for his ceremony/vigil, it was done
                                          amazingly well and he thoroughly enjoyed it. It didn't hurt that he
                                          later found out that the incoming monarchs and the outgoing monarchs
                                          (he was elevated at a coronation event) had a 'discussion' on who
                                          would get to officially call him in and who would get to actually do
                                          the elevating... good for the ego. :)

                                          Despina de la yeah, right
                                        • Sarah Michele Ford
                                          I used to say that I wanted to be surprised.... honestly, I think it s silly to pretend that people don t play what if - how many people really don t know
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Jan 20, 2009
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                                            I used to say that I wanted to be surprised.... honestly, I think it's
                                            silly to pretend that people don't play "what if" - how many people really
                                            don't know what their answer to the Crown is going to be? As long as the
                                            Crown talks to the candidate's friends and family, it should be entirely
                                            possible to avoid someone declining elevation in court. My household has a
                                            tradition of the "in case of elevation, break glass" box. It may not be a
                                            literal box, but one of my first tasks as an apprentice was to communicate
                                            to my Laurel what my desires for my own hypothetical elevation would be.

                                            So anyway. Ideally, I would like to be surprised so that someone else can
                                            worry about the details of the ceremony. But since many of the people I
                                            would like to speak for me don't live in the same Kingdom that I do these
                                            days, I would prioritize having my friends there to speak for me over the
                                            surprise aspect.

                                            And having now been so very presumptuous as to comment on this matter AND to
                                            have recently purchased fabric to put in that "in case of elevation" box, I
                                            have guaranteed that I will never, ever, have cause to act on any of this.
                                            ;^)

                                            Alianor de R.
                                            --
                                            *****************************
                                            saramichelef@...
                                            http://snowplow.org/sarah/pers/
                                            http://alphasarah.livejournal.com
                                            http://www.flickr.com/people/sarahmichelef


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Chris Laning
                                            ... In the West, the distinction is: There is absolutely no problem with saying privately to one s friends and acquaintances that one would like to be a Laurel
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Jan 20, 2009
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                                              Kathryn wrote:
                                              >Outlands current way of thought is to call the candidate into court and make
                                              >the offer. Most times some of the peerage there know ahead of time it is to
                                              >happen but not always the case. Talking about becoming a peer is almost a
                                              >taboo here -- you work because you want to - not for any award/reward...
                                              >award is then a surprise most times. If you talk about it, it is most times
                                              >considered negative by the circle. (not necessarily my personal opinion,
                                              >but the way of things!)

                                              In the West, the distinction is: There is absolutely no problem with saying privately to one's friends and acquaintances that one would like to be a Laurel or Pelican "someday." Or to be worthy of one (which might be a better way to put it).

                                              However (and it's a big however) -- talking loudly in public about how you think you're close to being Laureled/Pelicaned, how you're impatient that you haven't "got one yet", or complaining that "why does so-and-so have a Laurel/Pelican but not me" is regarded as very very negative.

                                              It is also true that people who are excellent at what they do and take a more mellow attitude ("I'm doing this because I love it, and awards are nice but I'm not holding my breath") are more likely to have a Peerage offered. That's because an obvious attitude that "it's all about *ME* and why don't *I* get all the attention" is regarded as a counter-productive position. It's also because people who are only in it for the "cookie" tend to get it and then drop out.

                                              And it's still a "surprise" if the Royalty offer you a Peerage in private: it's just not a *public* surprise.

                                              (Dame) Christian de Holacombe, OL (which I'm only mnentioning because it's relevant here)

                                              ____________________________________________________________
                                              0 Chris Laning
                                              | <claning@...>
                                              + Davis, California
                                              http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com
                                              ____________________________________________________________
                                            • Antonia Calvo
                                              ... Yes, quite-- and it can be a surprise to (nearly) everyone else if you keep schtum til the ceremony. -- Antonia di Benedetto Calvo ... Habeo metrum -
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Jan 20, 2009
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                                                Chris Laning wrote:

                                                >And it's still a "surprise" if the Royalty offer you a Peerage in private: it's just not a *public* surprise.
                                                >


                                                Yes, quite-- and it can be a surprise to (nearly) everyone else if you
                                                keep schtum 'til the ceremony.

                                                --
                                                Antonia di Benedetto Calvo

                                                -----------------------------
                                                Habeo metrum - musicamque,
                                                hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
                                                -Georgeus Gershwinus
                                                -----------------------------
                                              • Carmen Beaudry
                                                ... That s what vigils are for. I was offered my Laurel as a surprise, and enjoyed that very much; however I requested and sat vigil for 2 months, and it
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Jan 20, 2009
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                                                  > I'm going to have to disagree with this and agree with Jehanne--
                                                  > *everyone* needs a chance to think about whether they want to be a peer
                                                  > and have the chance to say yes or no *privately*.
                                                  >
                                                  > --
                                                  > Antonia di Benedetto Calvo

                                                  That's what vigils are for. I was offered my Laurel as a surprise, and
                                                  enjoyed that very much; however I requested and sat vigil for 2 months, and
                                                  it wasn't just to prepare a nice ceremony. I spent that time thinking about
                                                  whether I really wanted the job, whether I felt I could do it, and getting
                                                  advice from the people I respected who were already peers. If, during that
                                                  time, I had felt that I didn't really want it, I would have contacted the
                                                  Crown privately and told them that my answer was no. So, I was surprised,
                                                  but had the time and privacy to consider it, too.

                                                  Melusine d'Argent
                                                • Heather Rose Jones
                                                  Well, mostly I d have liked to be present. (it was long ago and we don t do that any more.) Tangwystyl
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Jan 20, 2009
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                                                    Well, mostly I'd have liked to be present. (it was long ago and we
                                                    don't do that any more.)

                                                    Tangwystyl

                                                    On Jan 19, 2009, at 23:25, CatalinadeGata <gatan_oz@...> wrote:

                                                    > What have people preferred? Would they have rather known before hand
                                                    > or reveled in the surprise? Just a curious question.
                                                    >
                                                    > Tash
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                                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                                                    > This is the Authentic SCA eGroupYahoo! Groups Links
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                                                  • Antonia Calvo
                                                    ... Yup-- I was offerd a Pelican months ago-- a surprise to me, and not done in court, so I had the opportunity to think about whether or not I wanted to go
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Jan 20, 2009
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                                                      Carmen Beaudry wrote:

                                                      >>I'm going to have to disagree with this and agree with Jehanne--
                                                      >>*everyone* needs a chance to think about whether they want to be a peer
                                                      >>and have the chance to say yes or no *privately*.
                                                      >>
                                                      >>
                                                      >
                                                      >That's what vigils are for. I was offered my Laurel as a surprise, and
                                                      >enjoyed that very much; however I requested and sat vigil for 2 months, and
                                                      >it wasn't just to prepare a nice ceremony. I spent that time thinking about
                                                      >whether I really wanted the job, whether I felt I could do it, and getting
                                                      >advice from the people I respected who were already peers. If, during that
                                                      >time, I had felt that I didn't really want it, I would have contacted the
                                                      >Crown privately and told them that my answer was no. So, I was surprised,
                                                      >but had the time and privacy to consider it, too.
                                                      >
                                                      >


                                                      Yup-- I was offerd a Pelican months ago-- a surprise to me, and not done
                                                      in court, so I had the opportunity to think about whether or not I
                                                      wanted to go through with it without an audience.


                                                      --
                                                      Antonia di Benedetto Calvo

                                                      -----------------------------
                                                      Habeo metrum - musicamque,
                                                      hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
                                                      -Georgeus Gershwinus
                                                      -----------------------------
                                                    • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                                                      In a message dated 1/20/2009 2:26:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, gatan_oz@yahoo.com writes:
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Jan 20, 2009
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                                                        In a message dated 1/20/2009 2:26:27 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                                                        gatan_oz@... writes:

                                                        <<What have people preferred? Would they have rather known before hand or
                                                        reveled in the surprise? Just a curious question.>>

                                                        I was surprised, to the point of my husband managing to have me design my own
                                                        Laurel cloak without realizing it. Overall, I think I would rather have
                                                        known. There were people I would have liked to have there (and I suspect some
                                                        effort was made to get them there, or to at least involve them, as my best
                                                        friend, who lives in An Tir, sent a letter to speak for the Pelican and another
                                                        friend, from Lochac, sent a letter to speak for the Chivalry). And I would also
                                                        have liked to have made some arrangement that meant that either they would have
                                                        waited until after I was done being pregnant or before I was so pregnant. I
                                                        was very annoyed that the King flatly refused to allow me to kneel during any
                                                        part of the ceremony because of my pregnancy.


                                                        Brangwayna Morgan
                                                        Shire of Silver Rylle, East Kingdom
                                                        Lancaster, PA
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                                                      • Kareina Talvi Tytär
                                                        ... Fortunately, it is possible to accomplish this, *and* be surprised. When I was still reasonably new to the SCA, but already quite addicted to the
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Jan 23, 2009
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                                                          Antonia di Benedetto Calvo wrote:

                                                          >I'm going to have to disagree with this and agree with Jehanne--
                                                          >*everyone* needs a chance to think about whether they want to be a peer
                                                          >and have the chance to say yes or no *privately*.

                                                          Fortunately, it is possible to accomplish this, *and* be
                                                          surprised. When I was still reasonably new to the SCA, but already
                                                          quite addicted to the hand-sewing and embroidery for which I
                                                          eventually received my leaves I made a point of telling a few of the
                                                          local laurels that, should I ever get to the point of being good
                                                          enough at my art to be worthy of being a laurel, I would prefer it to
                                                          be a surprise. Years elapsed, and it got to the point where some
                                                          non-laurels expressed surprise that I wasn't a laurel. A
                                                          knight/laurel friend of mine started making occasional suggestions
                                                          about my art using the same tone of voice he used with his squires
                                                          when he was telling them what he felt they needed to make the
                                                          transition in skill level necessary for knighthood. These clues gave
                                                          me time to think about the role of the order of the laurel, and how I
                                                          felt about it. I knew that my skills/research levels were improving,
                                                          and had plenty of room to continue to improve, but I also knew that I
                                                          was willing to accept the responsibilities associated with being a
                                                          member of the order should the Crown decide to admit me, so again, I
                                                          checked back in with some laurel friends and let them know that yes,
                                                          should it ever happen, I'd prefer to be surprised. A few more years
                                                          elapsed, and then, one day, when I truly wasn't expecting it, the
                                                          herald suddenly went into the "strength and stability of the Kingdom
                                                          is founded upon these virtues" speech, and I thought "that sounds
                                                          like a peerage ceremony", and continued stitching on my project du
                                                          jour. And the laurels were called up, and two sent out to find the
                                                          candidate in the crowd. As they walked out into the crowd, I turned
                                                          from my front row seat to see where they were going, and they doubled
                                                          back to me. I had long known that I was ready and willing to swear
                                                          the oath and undertake the duties, but they joy that went with the
                                                          feeling of "they noticed me" was incredible. Other people can have
                                                          their planed for months in advance ceremonies, I will always treasure
                                                          my "instant" elevation.

                                                          --Kareina
                                                          PS while I was still fairly new to the SCA at the start of the above
                                                          story, I was already a Royal Peer, having served as Princess of
                                                          Oertha at the tender age of 18, after only about six months active
                                                          within our organization, and another six to eight months as a
                                                          "fringe" participant--coming along to parts of events for a few
                                                          hours, but not attending any meetings/practices/workshops/etc.


                                                          http://kareina.livejournal.com/
                                                        • quokkaqueen
                                                          ... propose a historical solution. Have the laurels in the area, present their materials and presentations on one side of a site, and the would-be apprentices
                                                          Message 28 of 28 , Jan 24, 2009
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                                                            > As a proposal for replacing or in addition to competitions, I would
                                                            propose a historical solution. Have the laurels in the area, present
                                                            their materials and presentations on one side of a site, and the
                                                            would-be apprentices (or just people that are working on some A&E
                                                            presentation subject) set up their work on the other.
                                                            <<snip>>

                                                            Apologies to flog the exhausted horse of competitions again, but I
                                                            just realised something -- what size usually would these competitions
                                                            or displays be? One or two 'entrants', or a dozen? A score?

                                                            I'm an A&S officer for my local group who is used to having
                                                            competitions with a single entrant. It isn't a simple problem of 'the
                                                            arts need encouragement', it's that people do lots of A&S stuff, and
                                                            never enter it. (I'm sure there are various reasons, like those
                                                            discussed here, for not entering.)

                                                            So, my two questions are, is there a minimum number of people you'd
                                                            need to get interested before these competition alternatives are
                                                            experimented with?
                                                            And, if you feel strongly about competitions or how A&S is being run
                                                            in your local group, have you spoken to your local A&S officer?

                                                            Honestly curious,
                                                            Asfridhr
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