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15th century Lowland or Gaelic Scottish Resources for Garb

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  • Elisabeth Hänsler
    Hello all... I am trying to help a friend out that is newish to the SCA and needs help researching. I am looking for resources on 15th century Scottish garb.
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 14, 2008
      Hello all...

      I am trying to help a friend out that is newish to the SCA and needs
      help researching. I am looking for resources on 15th century Scottish
      garb. Her husband wants to do the kilt thing, so I would guess (I need
      to research it) it means they are Lowland or Gaelic.

      I just need some good nudges to get started and then I will gether the
      information to pass onto her.

      Thank you in advance.

      YIS,

      Elisabeth Hänsler
    • Labhaoise O'Beachain
      You could start with 15thcenturygarb or 15thCenturyEurope neither are really active, but my experience is people who know will answer. I m sorry my focus is
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 14, 2008
        You could start with 15thcenturygarb or 15thCenturyEurope neither are
        really active, but my experience is people who know will answer.

        I'm sorry my focus is much earlier, and I took a look and I don't even
        have useful links.
        Sorry,
        Labhaoise
        Elisabeth Hänsler <emmiewilliams@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello all...
        >
        > I am trying to help a friend out that is newish to the SCA and needs
        > help researching. I am looking for resources on 15th century
        Scottish
      • Britt
        MODERATOR NOTE - As a courtesy to our many members who receive their messages in digest form, we ask that you not top post and that you edit any portion of
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 14, 2008
          MODERATOR NOTE - As a courtesy to our many members who receive their messages in digest form, we ask that you not top post and that you edit any portion of previous messages that do not require repetition. Thank you. Jehanne de Wodeford, Pacific Time Zone Moderator.

          MESSAGE ORDER REVERSED AND EDITED:
          Elisabeth Hänsler <emmiewilliams@...> wrote:

          > I am trying to help a friend out that is newish to the SCA and > needs help researching. I am looking for resources on 15th century > Scottish garb.

          OK this is my first time posting to this group while most of my
          research is Grermanic in nature my mistress has done extenxive
          research on the subject (Because it's her buisiness) and her findings
          are here.
          https://www.reconstructinghistory.com//index.php?s=&c=8&d=117&e=&f=&g=&a=134&w=2
          Now I am in noway saying you must take her word. Look at her
          documentation and decide for yourself. It's just the best article I
          found about the kilt. Don't be too sad when you tend to be looking at
          the wrong time period for kilts. It's a very common misconception.
          Happy research,
          Lady Magdalena
        • Antonia Calvo
          ... A good place to start is https://www.reconstructinghistory.com/articles.php?c=8&d=117&w=3&r=Y, but I don t think you re going to find a lot of evidence for
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 14, 2008
            Elisabeth Hänsler wrote:
            > Hello all...
            >
            > I am trying to help a friend out that is newish to the SCA and needs
            > help researching. I am looking for resources on 15th century Scottish
            > garb. Her husband wants to do the kilt thing, so I would guess (I need
            > to research it) it means they are Lowland or Gaelic.
            >
            > I just need some good nudges to get started and then I will gether the
            > information to pass onto her.
            >

            A good place to start is
            https://www.reconstructinghistory.com/articles.php?c=8&d=117&w=3&r=Y,
            but I don't think you're going to find a lot of evidence for the "kilt
            thing" in the 15th century.


            --
            Antonia di Benedetto Calvo

            -----------------------------
            Habeo metrum - musicamque,
            hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
            -Georgeus Gershwinus
            -----------------------------
          • Kevin Myers
            ... From: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Elisabeth Hänsler Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 10:54 AM To:
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 14, 2008
              -----Original Message-----
              From: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com]
              On Behalf Of Elisabeth Hänsler
              Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 10:54 AM
              To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [Authentic_SCA] 15th century Lowland or Gaelic Scottish Resources
              for Garb

              >Hello all...

              >I am trying to help a friend out that is newish to the SCA and needs
              >help researching. I am looking for resources on 15th century Scottish
              >garb. Her husband wants to do the kilt thing, so I would guess (I need
              >to research it) it means they are Lowland or Gaelic.
              ________________________________________________________________________

              Feasgar math Ealasaid,

              Lowland Scotland was dominated by Anglic-speaking culture by the 13th
              century. Highland Scotland was dominated by a Gaelic-speaking culture that
              has been receding north and westwards since the 11th century thanks largely
              to the importation of English, Flemish and Dutch craftspeople to the royal
              burghs. There was some Gaelic settlement in Galloway also starting around
              the 9th century.

              Regarding the history of the kilt, I would recommend finding H.F.
              McClintock's "Old Irish and Highland Dress" and/or J. Telfer-Dunbar's
              "Highland Dress".
              Regarding the kilt:
              I'm going to over-simplify for the sake of brevity, but you will find that
              the earliest mention of the "breacan feile" or great kilt is 1594 (maybe you
              could stretch that back to 1570's?), observations prior to that describe the
              "brat and leine" or mantle or plaid and tunic style of dress (similar to
              16th century Irish)--McClintock goes into this in much more detail!. This
              goes for highland garb. I haven't seen any mention of women wearing a
              kilt-like garment in the highlands before 1600 (by the 18th century there is
              the appearance of the arasaid which is a woman's version of the great kilt,
              sort of)

              For lowland garb, clothing similar to what was worn on the English side of
              the border is appropriate with some influences from the low countries. Dress
              it up with a tartan plaid...

              As other people have already mentioned Kass McGann's website...Check it
              out!!
              In her patterns section she has leine patterns for (mostly) 16th century,
              these were also worn in the highlands. The leine was worn by the Gaelic
              upper classes from the earliest mentions of their clothing up through the
              16th century. The earlier version had a tighter fitting sleeve, and in some
              instances a less full gown/body. I don't know when the sleeve sizes became
              fuller, but it probably followed the trend in continental sleeve size.

              'san sheirbhis,
              Ollamh Cainnech ruad mcGuairi, OL
            • Sharon L. Krossa
              Greetings! ... For clothing, and other aspects of period Scotland, you may find my Medieval Scotland web site useful: http://MedievalScotland.org Regards,
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 14, 2008
                Greetings!

                At 3:54 PM +0000 9/14/08, Elisabeth Hänsler wrote:
                >I am trying to help a friend out that is newish to the SCA and needs
                >help researching. I am looking for resources on 15th century Scottish
                >garb. Her husband wants to do the kilt thing, so I would guess (I need
                >to research it) it means they are Lowland or Gaelic.

                For clothing, and other aspects of period
                Scotland, you may find my Medieval Scotland web
                site useful:

                http://MedievalScotland.org

                Regards,
                Africa, mka Sharon
                --
                Sharon Krossa, PhD - skrossa-yg@...
                Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
                Medieval Scotland - http://MedievalScotland.org/
                Shopping Online? Help support! - http://MedievalScotland.org/patron/
                The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
                The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/
              • Elisabeth Hänsler
                Thank you to everyone for your help and guidance. I have forwarded all the information and sources to my friend. I will let her digest them all and make her
                Message 7 of 10 , Sep 15, 2008
                  Thank you to everyone for your help and guidance. I have forwarded all
                  the information and sources to my friend. I will let her digest them
                  all and make her own decision about her and her lord's personas from
                  there.

                  All your input was helpful and enlightening. I did not realize until
                  now the limited information (extant finds, art, ect...) about the pre-
                  16th century Scottish culture.

                  YIS,

                  Elisabeth Hänsler
                • Labhaoise O'Beachain
                  many there are who ignore the 18th century origin of the kilt and garb themselves thus..... besides when speaking of history in scotland it s more than high
                  Message 8 of 10 , Sep 15, 2008
                    many there are who ignore the 18th century origin of the kilt and
                    garb themselves thus..... besides when speaking of history in
                    scotland it's more than high and low land, it's pictish, celtic,
                    irish, angles, saxons, and on and on, they didn't get run through
                    quite as often as say, Ireland, but there is an amazing amount of
                    back and forth!
                    Labhaoise
                  • Sharon L. Krossa
                    ... Actually, it is mainly Highland Scottish culture which has the problem of severely limited evidence with regard to clothing and other aspects of material
                    Message 9 of 10 , Sep 15, 2008
                      At 11:15 AM +0000 9/15/08, Elisabeth Hänsler wrote:
                      >All your input was helpful and enlightening. I did not realize until
                      >now the limited information (extant finds, art, ect...) about the pre-
                      >16th century Scottish culture.

                      Actually, it is mainly Highland Scottish culture
                      which has the problem of severely limited
                      evidence with regard to clothing and other
                      aspects of material culture. There is a
                      reasonable amount of evidence for Lowland
                      Scotland, although since it is less popular than
                      Highland culture (in general, not just in the
                      SCA), there not as many published books aimed at
                      a popular audience.

                      Euphrick
                      --
                      Sharon Krossa, PhD - skrossa-yg@...
                      Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
                      Medieval Scotland - http://MedievalScotland.org/
                      Shopping Online? Help support! - http://MedievalScotland.org/patron/
                      The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
                      The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/
                    • Elisabeth Hänsler
                      Well, thank you over-all... I never knew all the subcultures involved. It is interesting... maybe one day I will research it out of my own curiousity... right
                      Message 10 of 10 , Sep 15, 2008
                        Well, thank you over-all... I never knew all the subcultures involved.
                        It is interesting... maybe one day I will research it out of my own
                        curiousity... right now I am still trying to nail down my German
                        persona : )

                        YIS,

                        Elisabeth Hänsler
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