Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Heraldic Clothing and toque/torque/fillet question
--- On Wed, 9/3/08, megatrope <megatrope@...> wrote:
From: megatrope <megatrope@...>
Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Heraldic Clothing and toque/torque/fillet question
Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 8:27 PM
> It is quite possible that no woman ever wore a heraldic surcote. Parts of this argument
are badly remembered from a lecture by Robin Netherton; all mistakes mine.
"Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince" mentions several heraldic items made for Queen
Phillipa, specifically for her to wear to tournaments in which Edward III fought. These
references often refer to clothing that matched or corresponded to whatever Edward was
wearing - including mottos, badges, charges, livery colors, etc. The items are generally
called "gouns", which may refer to what we call cotehardies - or at least something along
those lines. There are also references to women's heraldic clothing (serving the same or
similar functions) in a book called "The Performance of Self" by Susan Crane.
Both of these books discuss the heraldic functions associated with the tournament - not
just battle, but "mock" battles. So, wearing heraldic clothing became popular for
spectators who were effectively showing their support for one of the entrants.
It sounds almost like the medieval equivalant of wearing your team colors/logo/etc. at a sporting event. She was wearing her 'team colors' by wearing heraldic clothing that matched her husband's. Interesting.
> > It is quite possible that no woman ever wore a heraldic surcote.Yes, but... ;)
> Parts of this argument
> are badly remembered from a lecture by Robin Netherton; all
> mistakes mine.
> "Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince" mentions several heraldic
> items made for Queen
> Phillipa, specifically for her to wear to tournaments in which
> Edward III fought. These
> references often refer to clothing that matched or corresponded to
> whatever Edward was
> wearing - including mottos, badges, charges, livery colors, etc.
The difference is "clothing with heraldic elements and colors", vs
"wearing the flag" as it were. Looking like you took your banner and
made it into a dress (ala the lady in the arming scene in the
Luttrell Psalter) possibly only happened in art. The other instances
cited, of clothing containing mottos, badges, charges, and livery
colors, produce a different look. There's precious little clothing
surviving, and less with heraldic content, but it would seem to
support this argument.
If it helps, think of the USA's tradition of 4th of July clothing and
the American flag. We'll see stars, stripes, red/white/blue, and
even little flags decorating our clothing, but I haven't seen anyone
at the parade dressed in what looks like a walking flag (or half a
one). That's usually reserved for political cartoons where it's
important to indicate the figure is representing the USA.
All my thinking on this has been completely influenced by Robin
Netherton, and supported by my own observations afterward while
wondering if she's on to something there. ;)
--Emmelyne de Marksbury
- I was looking more towards the colors, livery, elements or badges type
Example: My lord's device is black and gold with 3 bottony crosses.
I wear a gold (Manesse Codex style) surcotte with a black bottony
cross over my heart.
I don't wear his arms but I do wear elements of it to support him when
he is competing.
When I originally posted I was trying to see what people have heard
and if this is a period form of support for a lady.