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Re: Heraldic Clothing and toque/torque/fillet question

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  • Elisabeth Hänsler
    Thank you to everyone for their responses! I m sorry I did not reply sooner, but I was sooooo tired yesterday after returning sunburnt and icky feeling from
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 1, 2008
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      Thank you to everyone for their responses! I'm sorry I did not reply
      sooner, but I was sooooo tired yesterday after returning sunburnt and
      icky feeling from an event this weekend.

      Thank you again!

      YIS,

      Elisabeth Hänsler
    • megatrope
      ... are badly remembered from a lecture by Robin Netherton; all mistakes mine. ... Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince mentions several heraldic items
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 3, 2008
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        > It is quite possible that no woman ever wore a heraldic surcote. Parts of this argument
        are badly remembered from a lecture by Robin Netherton; all mistakes mine.
        >

        "Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince" mentions several heraldic items made for Queen
        Phillipa, specifically for her to wear to tournaments in which Edward III fought. These
        references often refer to clothing that matched or corresponded to whatever Edward was
        wearing - including mottos, badges, charges, livery colors, etc. The items are generally
        called "gouns", which may refer to what we call cotehardies - or at least something along
        those lines. There are also references to women's heraldic clothing (serving the same or
        similar functions) in a book called "The Performance of Self" by Susan Crane.

        Both of these books discuss the heraldic functions associated with the tournament - not
        just battle, but "mock" battles. So, wearing heraldic clothing became popular for
        spectators who were effectively showing their support for one of the entrants.

        I have an article on this topic on my website if you're interested... if nothing else, it has
        the full bibliographies of the two books I mentioned ;-)

        http://web.mac.com/megatrope/Personal/Heraldic_Clothing.html

        Cecilia
      • Rebecca Klingbeil
        ... From: megatrope Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Heraldic Clothing and toque/torque/fillet question To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 4, 2008
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          --- On Wed, 9/3/08, megatrope <megatrope@...> wrote:

          From: megatrope <megatrope@...>
          Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Heraldic Clothing and toque/torque/fillet question
          To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 8:27 PM







          > It is quite possible that no woman ever wore a heraldic surcote. Parts of this argument
          are badly remembered from a lecture by Robin Netherton; all mistakes mine.
          >

          "Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince" mentions several heraldic items made for Queen
          Phillipa, specifically for her to wear to tournaments in which Edward III fought. These
          references often refer to clothing that matched or corresponded to whatever Edward was
          wearing - including mottos, badges, charges, livery colors, etc. The items are generally
          called "gouns", which may refer to what we call cotehardies - or at least something along
          those lines. There are also references to women's heraldic clothing (serving the same or
          similar functions) in a book called "The Performance of Self" by Susan Crane.

          Both of these books discuss the heraldic functions associated with the tournament - not
          just battle, but "mock" battles. So, wearing heraldic clothing became popular for
          spectators who were effectively showing their support for one of the entrants.

          +++++++++++++++++++++++

          It sounds almost like the medieval equivalant of wearing your team colors/logo/etc. at a sporting event. She was wearing her 'team colors' by wearing heraldic clothing that matched her husband's. Interesting.

          Leofwynn
        • Cindy Myers
          ... Yes, but... ;) The difference is clothing with heraldic elements and colors , vs wearing the flag as it were. Looking like you took your banner and
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 4, 2008
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            > > It is quite possible that no woman ever wore a heraldic surcote.
            > Parts of this argument
            > are badly remembered from a lecture by Robin Netherton; all
            > mistakes mine.
            > >
            >
            > "Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince" mentions several heraldic
            > items made for Queen
            > Phillipa, specifically for her to wear to tournaments in which
            > Edward III fought. These
            > references often refer to clothing that matched or corresponded to
            > whatever Edward was
            > wearing - including mottos, badges, charges, livery colors, etc.
            >

            Yes, but... ;)

            The difference is "clothing with heraldic elements and colors", vs
            "wearing the flag" as it were. Looking like you took your banner and
            made it into a dress (ala the lady in the arming scene in the
            Luttrell Psalter) possibly only happened in art. The other instances
            cited, of clothing containing mottos, badges, charges, and livery
            colors, produce a different look. There's precious little clothing
            surviving, and less with heraldic content, but it would seem to
            support this argument.

            If it helps, think of the USA's tradition of 4th of July clothing and
            the American flag. We'll see stars, stripes, red/white/blue, and
            even little flags decorating our clothing, but I haven't seen anyone
            at the parade dressed in what looks like a walking flag (or half a
            one). That's usually reserved for political cartoons where it's
            important to indicate the figure is representing the USA.

            All my thinking on this has been completely influenced by Robin
            Netherton, and supported by my own observations afterward while
            wondering if she's on to something there. ;)

            --Emmelyne de Marksbury
          • Elisabeth Hänsler
            I was looking more towards the colors, livery, elements or badges type of heraldry. Example: My lord s device is black and gold with 3 bottony crosses. I wear
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 4, 2008
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              I was looking more towards the colors, livery, elements or badges type
              of heraldry.

              Example: My lord's device is black and gold with 3 bottony crosses.
              I wear a gold (Manesse Codex style) surcotte with a black bottony
              cross over my heart.

              I don't wear his arms but I do wear elements of it to support him when
              he is competing.

              When I originally posted I was trying to see what people have heard
              and if this is a period form of support for a lady.

              YIS,

              Elisabeth Hansler
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