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Heraldic Clothing and toque/torque/fillet question

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  • Elisabeth Hänsler
    I have a question I d love to get input on... heraldic clothing for Women, approx. 1305-1340 time frame. What I have noticed overall is that or women it is
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 28, 2008
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      I have a question I'd love to get input on... heraldic clothing for
      Women, approx. 1305-1340 time frame.

      What I have noticed overall is that or women it is limited to the
      surcotte during this time frame.

      What have you seen/found/believe?

      Next... toque/torque/fillet.... same time period, but decorated. The
      Manesse Codexhas one that may have a braid or some other decoration
      around the middle... I have seen documentation with braids and
      cording... what else have you seen?

      Curious what is out there since my computer crashed and I have lost
      OODLES of research (whimpering sadly... the sobbing has passed.)

      Thank you.

      YIS,

      Elisabeth Hänsler
    • Ann Catelli
      ... It is quite possible that no woman ever wore a heraldic surcote. Parts of this argument are badly remembered from a lecture by Robin Netherton; all
      Message 2 of 12 , Aug 28, 2008
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        --- On Thu, 8/28/08, Elisabeth Hänsler <emmiewilliams@...> wrote:

        > heraldic clothing for Women, approx. 1305-1340 time frame.
        > What I have noticed overall is that or women it is limited
        > to the surcotte during this time frame.
        >
        > What have you seen/found/believe?
        >
        > Elisabeth Hänsler

        It is quite possible that no woman ever wore a heraldic surcote. Parts of this argument are badly remembered from a lecture by Robin Netherton; all mistakes mine.

        In the contexts you find the pictures, the heraldry serves to identify the woman.

        Men, so far as I can find, wore heraldic clothing 1) in battle and 2) if a herald, only when performing his heraldic duties.

        Women, not being in battle or being heralds, didn't ever need such clothing.

        Surely not the last word. I hope someone who has seen wills or inventories of your desired time frame will speak to say he has (not) seen a garment that might bear heraldic achievements for women.

        Ann in CT
      • Rebecca Klingbeil
        ... Here is one I can give you right away: 1336-1343 – Andrea Pisano– Santa Reparata – Marble – Museo dell’Opera del Duomo, Florence:
        Message 3 of 12 , Aug 29, 2008
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          --- Elisabeth Hänsler <emmiewilliams@...>
          wrote:

          > I have a question I'd love to get input on...
          > heraldic clothing for
          > Women, approx. 1305-1340 time frame.
          >
          > What I have noticed overall is that or women it is
          > limited to the
          > surcotte during this time frame.
          >
          > What have you seen/found/believe?
          >
          > Next... toque/torque/fillet.... same time period,
          > but decorated. The
          > Manesse Codexhas one that may have a braid or some
          > other decoration
          > around the middle... I have seen documentation with
          > braids and
          > cording... what else have you seen?
          >
          > Curious what is out there since my computer crashed
          > and I have lost
          > OODLES of research (whimpering sadly... the sobbing
          > has passed.)
          >
          > Thank you.
          >
          > YIS,
          >
          > Elisabeth Hänsler

          Here is one I can give you right away:

          1336-1343 – Andrea Pisano– Santa Reparata – Marble –
          Museo dell’Opera del Duomo, Florence:

          http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=16773

          She wears what appears to be a toque with jewels -
          it's a statue so there's no color. I have a couple
          more that I can email you directly because I don't
          have an online link handy.

          Leofwynn Marchaunt
          http://store.tidbitstrinkets.com
        • Rebecca Klingbeil
          ... My lady, here an additional images, though they are a bit earlier than the time period you gave (two are of one statue, 1260-1270, and the other a stained
          Message 4 of 12 , Aug 29, 2008
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            --- Elisabeth Hänsler <emmiewilliams@...>
            wrote:

            > I have a question I'd love to get input on...
            > heraldic clothing for
            > Women, approx. 1305-1340 time frame.
            >
            > What I have noticed overall is that or women it is
            > limited to the
            > surcotte during this time frame.
            >
            > What have you seen/found/believe?
            >
            > Next... toque/torque/fillet.... same time period,
            > but decorated. The
            > Manesse Codexhas one that may have a braid or some
            > other decoration
            > around the middle... I have seen documentation with
            > braids and
            > cording... what else have you seen?
            >
            > Curious what is out there since my computer crashed
            > and I have lost
            > OODLES of research (whimpering sadly... the sobbing
            > has passed.)
            >
            > Thank you.
            >
            > YIS,
            >
            > Elisabeth Hänsler
            >
            >

            My lady, here an additional images, though they are a
            bit earlier than the time period you gave (two are of
            one statue, 1260-1270, and the other a stained glass
            window, 1280-1290).

            1260-1270 – Spain – Anonymous – Alfonso X and Doña
            Violante – Stone – Cloister, Cathedral, Burgos, Spain
            1260-1270 – Spain – Anonymous – Alfonso X and Doña
            Violante [Detail 1] – Stone – Cloister, Cathedral,
            Burgos, Spain
            1280-1290 – Germany – Anonymous – St. Gertrude with
            Donor – Stained glass window – Westfälisches
            Landesmuseum, Cologne, Germany

            There are images of the Virgin and other queens with
            what appear to be crowns, I have not included those.

            YIS,

            Leofwynn Merchaunt



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Rebecca Klingbeil
            That last post missing it s pictures was meant to be sent directly to the lady who asked the question, however, if anyone else wants the pictures, let me know.
            Message 5 of 12 , Aug 29, 2008
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              That last post missing it's pictures was meant to be
              sent directly to the lady who asked the question,
              however, if anyone else wants the pictures, let me
              know.

              Leofwynn
            • anabeladg
              ... Spain is a wonderful place to look into ornamentation of Toques. Here are some of the links which I have found over the years: www.jessamynscloset.com
              Message 6 of 12 , Aug 29, 2008
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                > Next... toque/torque/fillet.... same time period, but decorated. The
                > Manesse Codexhas one that may have a braid or some other decoration
                > around the middle... I have seen documentation with braids and
                > cording... what else have you seen?
                > YIS,
                >
                > Elisabeth Hänsler

                Spain is a wonderful place to look into ornamentation of Toques. Here
                are some of the links which I have found over the years:

                www.jessamynscloset.com
                www.middelaldercentret.dk/pdf/burgosrapport.pdf
                games.rengeekcentral.com [Alfonso the Wise, El Libro de juegos]

                Ana de Granada
              • wodeford
                ... Found it! This link may be of use. http://www.sca.org.au/st_florians/university/library/articles-howtos/heraldry/HeraldicFrocksS.htm Jehanne de Wodeford
                Message 7 of 12 , Aug 29, 2008
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                  --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Elisabeth Hänsler
                  <emmiewilliams@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I have a question I'd love to get input on... heraldic clothing for
                  > Women, approx. 1305-1340 time frame.

                  Found it! This link may be of use.
                  http://www.sca.org.au/st_florians/university/library/articles-howtos/heraldry/HeraldicFrocksS.htm

                  Jehanne de Wodeford
                  West Kingdom
                • Elisabeth Hänsler
                  Thank you to everyone for their responses! I m sorry I did not reply sooner, but I was sooooo tired yesterday after returning sunburnt and icky feeling from
                  Message 8 of 12 , Sep 1, 2008
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                    Thank you to everyone for their responses! I'm sorry I did not reply
                    sooner, but I was sooooo tired yesterday after returning sunburnt and
                    icky feeling from an event this weekend.

                    Thank you again!

                    YIS,

                    Elisabeth Hänsler
                  • megatrope
                    ... are badly remembered from a lecture by Robin Netherton; all mistakes mine. ... Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince mentions several heraldic items
                    Message 9 of 12 , Sep 3, 2008
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                      > It is quite possible that no woman ever wore a heraldic surcote. Parts of this argument
                      are badly remembered from a lecture by Robin Netherton; all mistakes mine.
                      >

                      "Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince" mentions several heraldic items made for Queen
                      Phillipa, specifically for her to wear to tournaments in which Edward III fought. These
                      references often refer to clothing that matched or corresponded to whatever Edward was
                      wearing - including mottos, badges, charges, livery colors, etc. The items are generally
                      called "gouns", which may refer to what we call cotehardies - or at least something along
                      those lines. There are also references to women's heraldic clothing (serving the same or
                      similar functions) in a book called "The Performance of Self" by Susan Crane.

                      Both of these books discuss the heraldic functions associated with the tournament - not
                      just battle, but "mock" battles. So, wearing heraldic clothing became popular for
                      spectators who were effectively showing their support for one of the entrants.

                      I have an article on this topic on my website if you're interested... if nothing else, it has
                      the full bibliographies of the two books I mentioned ;-)

                      http://web.mac.com/megatrope/Personal/Heraldic_Clothing.html

                      Cecilia
                    • Rebecca Klingbeil
                      ... From: megatrope Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Heraldic Clothing and toque/torque/fillet question To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
                      Message 10 of 12 , Sep 4, 2008
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                        --- On Wed, 9/3/08, megatrope <megatrope@...> wrote:

                        From: megatrope <megatrope@...>
                        Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Heraldic Clothing and toque/torque/fillet question
                        To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 8:27 PM







                        > It is quite possible that no woman ever wore a heraldic surcote. Parts of this argument
                        are badly remembered from a lecture by Robin Netherton; all mistakes mine.
                        >

                        "Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince" mentions several heraldic items made for Queen
                        Phillipa, specifically for her to wear to tournaments in which Edward III fought. These
                        references often refer to clothing that matched or corresponded to whatever Edward was
                        wearing - including mottos, badges, charges, livery colors, etc. The items are generally
                        called "gouns", which may refer to what we call cotehardies - or at least something along
                        those lines. There are also references to women's heraldic clothing (serving the same or
                        similar functions) in a book called "The Performance of Self" by Susan Crane.

                        Both of these books discuss the heraldic functions associated with the tournament - not
                        just battle, but "mock" battles. So, wearing heraldic clothing became popular for
                        spectators who were effectively showing their support for one of the entrants.

                        +++++++++++++++++++++++

                        It sounds almost like the medieval equivalant of wearing your team colors/logo/etc. at a sporting event. She was wearing her 'team colors' by wearing heraldic clothing that matched her husband's. Interesting.

                        Leofwynn
                      • Cindy Myers
                        ... Yes, but... ;) The difference is clothing with heraldic elements and colors , vs wearing the flag as it were. Looking like you took your banner and
                        Message 11 of 12 , Sep 4, 2008
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                          > > It is quite possible that no woman ever wore a heraldic surcote.
                          > Parts of this argument
                          > are badly remembered from a lecture by Robin Netherton; all
                          > mistakes mine.
                          > >
                          >
                          > "Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince" mentions several heraldic
                          > items made for Queen
                          > Phillipa, specifically for her to wear to tournaments in which
                          > Edward III fought. These
                          > references often refer to clothing that matched or corresponded to
                          > whatever Edward was
                          > wearing - including mottos, badges, charges, livery colors, etc.
                          >

                          Yes, but... ;)

                          The difference is "clothing with heraldic elements and colors", vs
                          "wearing the flag" as it were. Looking like you took your banner and
                          made it into a dress (ala the lady in the arming scene in the
                          Luttrell Psalter) possibly only happened in art. The other instances
                          cited, of clothing containing mottos, badges, charges, and livery
                          colors, produce a different look. There's precious little clothing
                          surviving, and less with heraldic content, but it would seem to
                          support this argument.

                          If it helps, think of the USA's tradition of 4th of July clothing and
                          the American flag. We'll see stars, stripes, red/white/blue, and
                          even little flags decorating our clothing, but I haven't seen anyone
                          at the parade dressed in what looks like a walking flag (or half a
                          one). That's usually reserved for political cartoons where it's
                          important to indicate the figure is representing the USA.

                          All my thinking on this has been completely influenced by Robin
                          Netherton, and supported by my own observations afterward while
                          wondering if she's on to something there. ;)

                          --Emmelyne de Marksbury
                        • Elisabeth Hänsler
                          I was looking more towards the colors, livery, elements or badges type of heraldry. Example: My lord s device is black and gold with 3 bottony crosses. I wear
                          Message 12 of 12 , Sep 4, 2008
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                            I was looking more towards the colors, livery, elements or badges type
                            of heraldry.

                            Example: My lord's device is black and gold with 3 bottony crosses.
                            I wear a gold (Manesse Codex style) surcotte with a black bottony
                            cross over my heart.

                            I don't wear his arms but I do wear elements of it to support him when
                            he is competing.

                            When I originally posted I was trying to see what people have heard
                            and if this is a period form of support for a lady.

                            YIS,

                            Elisabeth Hansler
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