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Period Images of Children was [Re: When were "growth tucks" used in children's clothing?]

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  • Rebecca Klingbeil
    ... I suppose it also depends not only on time period but also on the age of the child. As I have been gathering and sorting images from SCA period (business
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 3 4:39 PM
      --- Catharine Decker <cdeckerwi@...> wrote:

      > Thank you! This is very interesting. Would it be
      > safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck
      > would be appropriate on gowns at least from this era
      > on? It seems to me that even if they weren't used
      > for growth tucks per se, if they were used for
      > decoration, then it would still be acceptable. No?
      >
      > Catharine

      I suppose it also depends not only on time period but
      also on the age of the child. As I have been gathering
      and sorting images from SCA period (business project),
      I have noticed quite a number of images of children.
      Not just the Child in Madonnas, though you can see a
      variety of ways that very young children were dressed
      that way. Usually they are on the edges of crowd
      scenes and such, and they are more common then one
      would think. Portraits are another matter - the
      children in those seem dressed up in their best
      finery.

      At least for the early to middle of period, most
      children seem to be dressed in unstructured
      lose-fitting garments like t-tunics. Even when the
      adults around them are wearing close fitting
      coathardies and kirtles and such, children are wearing
      loose tunics with simple belts, often with a slit in
      front for freedom of movement. Even older children
      seem to wear simpler versions of grown up clothing.
      It's as if parents were practical and said 'We're not
      going to put anything on you with a lot of labor
      involved until you've stopped growing.' There are
      exceptions, of course, but even when the clothes are
      closefitting like adults, they seem simpler in nearly
      all cases.

      Examples:
      A young child in a simple tunic with a slit, 13thc.:
      http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=16490

      An older boy [far right of painting] in a loose tunic
      with belt and pouch and hood, 1312-1317:
      http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=26880

      Three boys of what we'd call 'grade school' age
      perhaps, bottom left of picture, 1328-1330:
      http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=23133

      Boys climbing trees [back of painting], 1365-1368:
      http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=21226

      Man leading a toddler/preschooler away from the crowd
      [bottom left], 1380 with an older child behind:
      http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=21226


      A woman holding a toddler who dressed for easy
      clean-up, 1426-1427:
      http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=24791

      Child - perhaps girl but given the period and age
      might be a boy - in the front of the crowd [center],
      1426-1427:
      http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=24793

      Older boy/youth [far right of this detail of a
      painting] 1437:
      http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=21198

      A whole group of children of different ages [bottom
      right] 1447:
      http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=24952

      Child with his mother [left of painting] 1464-1467:
      http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=21840

      A number of young children, the oldest wearing
      something that he certainly has a lot of growing room
      in [center front, striped clothing] 1509:
      http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=19681

      I haven't gotten much into the 16th c. though. Perhaps
      as clothes became more complicated and more, I don't
      know, structured? - things changed. We'll see as I
      progress through the artwork.

      Leofwynn Marchaunt
    • Joan Mielke Yost
      Would it be safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck would be appropriate on gowns at least from this era on? Actually, no. As far as I have been
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 4 8:58 AM
        Would it be safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck would be
        appropriate on gowns at least from this era on?

        Actually, no. As far as I have been able to learn, this particular
        feature of women's dress is specific to 15th c. Spain. I does show up
        again later, but not until after the 17th century.

        Jehanne
      • Catharine Decker
        Ah, OK. Thanks. What are your thoughts on a wide hem, to be let out to lengthen the sleeves and bottom hem? Catharine
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 4 12:48 PM
          Ah, OK. Thanks.

          What are your thoughts on a wide hem, to be let out to lengthen the sleeves
          and bottom hem?

          Catharine
        • Carrie
          ... sleeves ... I personally do this after the time I made my daughter 4 new dresses and then she hit a growth spurt and they were no longer wearable and she
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 5 5:52 AM
            > What are your thoughts on a wide hem, to be let out to lengthen the
            sleeves
            > and bottom hem?
            >
            > Catharine
            >
            I personally do this after the time I made my daughter 4 new dresses
            and then she hit a growth spurt and they were no longer wearable and
            she had only worn them once. Now I add extra length in the hem to be
            let down. I don't worry too much about the sleeves because most of
            what we wear here in Trimaris is short sleeved anyway so I just make
            them a little long the first time. I have found that the dresses last
            a little longer this way.

            Grainne mhic Neill
          • sue_clemenger
            ... then that the use of such a tuck would be appropriate on gowns at least from this era on? It seems to me that even if they weren t used for growth tucks
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 10 10:00 AM
              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Catharine Decker <cdeckerwi@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Thank you! This is very interesting. Would it be safe to conclude
              then that the use of such a tuck would be appropriate on gowns at least
              from this era on? It seems to me that even if they weren't used for
              growth tucks per se, if they were used for decoration, then it would
              still be acceptable. No?
              >
              > Catharine
              >
              Hi, Catharine!
              I've got several images in a book on Sofonisba Anguissola (late
              16th/early 17th c. painter), in which she's depicting children, and
              IIRC, the skirts of the little girls distinctly show growth tucks. And
              these are princesses of the Spanish court, in fancy clothing, so we're
              definitely talking upper class.
              --Maire
            • sue_clemenger
              ... be ... up ... Jehanne, I ve got pictures of substantial tucks in children s skirts in late 16th century Spain. So it s not just skipping from the 15th to
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 10 10:03 AM
                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Joan Mielke Yost"
                <joan.mielke.yost@...> wrote:
                >
                > Would it be safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck would
                be
                > appropriate on gowns at least from this era on?
                >
                > Actually, no. As far as I have been able to learn, this particular
                > feature of women's dress is specific to 15th c. Spain. I does show
                up
                > again later, but not until after the 17th century.
                >
                > Jehanne
                >

                Jehanne, I've got pictures of substantial tucks in children's skirts in
                late 16th century Spain. So it's not just skipping from the 15th to
                the 18th centuries and in adult clothing....
                --Maire
              • Hera Davidson
                Hi I wouldn t necessarily say that the tucks on the infantas dresses are growth tucks, as these tucks also appear on the dresses of adult women, such as their
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 10 6:01 PM
                  Hi
                  I wouldn't necessarily say that the tucks on the infantas dresses are growth tucks, as these tucks also appear on the dresses of adult women, such as their stepmother's.
                  Cheers
                  Hera
                • Rebecca Klingbeil
                  ... For those who may be somewhat confused: Sofonisba Anguissola was one of 6 sisters, all painters, from Italy. Their father was extremely forward thinking
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 10 10:17 PM
                    --- sue_clemenger <sue_clemenger@...> wrote:

                    > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Catharine
                    > Decker <cdeckerwi@...>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Thank you! This is very interesting. Would it be
                    > safe to conclude
                    > then that the use of such a tuck would be
                    > appropriate on gowns at least
                    > from this era on? It seems to me that even if they
                    > weren't used for
                    > growth tucks per se, if they were used for
                    > decoration, then it would
                    > still be acceptable. No?
                    > >
                    > > Catharine
                    > >
                    > Hi, Catharine!
                    > I've got several images in a book on Sofonisba
                    > Anguissola (late
                    > 16th/early 17th c. painter), in which she's
                    > depicting children, and
                    > IIRC, the skirts of the little girls distinctly show
                    > growth tucks. And
                    > these are princesses of the Spanish court, in fancy
                    > clothing, so we're
                    > definitely talking upper class.
                    > --Maire
                    >
                    >

                    For those who may be somewhat confused: Sofonisba
                    Anguissola was one of 6 sisters, all painters, from
                    Italy. Their father was extremely forward thinking for
                    his time and gave them education and training not
                    normally available to women, even of their class. She
                    spent time as a lady-in-waiting in the Spanish court,
                    and is best known for her portraiture, especially of
                    her sisters and family. She was limited in her ability
                    to take on commissions of religious paintings, etc.,
                    because she was unable to freely study anatomy or the
                    drawing of nudes. She eventually married an Italian
                    (and later as a widow another Italian).

                    So, if you look her up, you must look under Italian
                    artists - even though she did a number of portraits of
                    the ladies of the Spanish court.

                    Leofwynn Marchaunt
                  • Joan Mielke Yost
                    ... in late 16th century Spain. So it s not just skipping from the 15th to ... Thank you for the information. I haven t had access to later Spanish images.
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 11 12:42 PM
                      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "sue_clemenger"
                      <sue_clemenger@...> wrote:
                      > Jehanne, I've got pictures of substantial tucks in children's skirts
                      in late 16th century Spain. So it's not just skipping from the 15th to
                      > the 18th centuries and in adult clothing....
                      > --Maire
                      >
                      Thank you for the information. I haven't had access to later Spanish
                      images.

                      Fashion was ever fickle, as it is today. I wonder though, why this
                      design detail does not show up in art from other regions as did other
                      Spanish fashions.

                      Jehanne
                    • Ann Catelli
                      Because the Spanish dressed funny. I.e., there was a distinct Spanish style for as far back as I ve seen Spanish clothing, not exactly like the core
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 11 3:45 PM
                        Because the Spanish dressed funny. I.e., there was a distinct Spanish style for as far back as I've seen Spanish clothing, not exactly like the core England/France/Lowlands areas that are fairly easy for an English-speaker to research.

                        I'm sure those Spanish people who cared thought all through all the years that foreigners dressed funny, of course.

                        Copying a style, as the English were so fond of during Elizabeth's reign, rarely means actually wearing the whole outfit as the source would.

                        Ann in CT

                        > Fashion was ever fickle, as it is today. I wonder though, why this
                        > design detail does not show up in art from other regions as did other
                        > Spanish fashions.
                        >
                        > Jehanne
                      • Joan Mielke Yost
                        ... Yes, they really did. Jehanne
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 11 6:11 PM
                          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Ann Catelli <elvestoorder@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Because the Spanish dressed funny.

                          <Grin!>
                          Yes, they really did.

                          Jehanne
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