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Re: When were "growth tucks" used in children's clothing?

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  • Joan Mielke Yost
    ... clothing... it was common to sew tucks into the hemlines and sleeves of children, so that as the child grew, the tucks could be taken out, thereby
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 3, 2008
      > My question at the moment is about "growth tucks" in children's
      clothing... it was common to sew tucks into the hemlines and
      sleeves of children, so that as the child grew, the tucks could be
      taken out, thereby lengthening the sleeves/hemlines so the child
      could wear the garment longer.

      Catherine,
      It took me a while to find this image on-line...This image shows a
      mid-15th century Spanish overgown with a tuck in it that certainly
      looks like a growth tuck. This feature is found in other Spanish
      women's gowns around the same time, but I have never seen it
      elsewhere. It seems to show up around the same time as the pre-
      farthingale skirt with the bones sewn into the outer fabric.
      However, in this dress, the purpose is clearly not to hold the skirt
      out...

      http://www.all-art.org/gothic_era/page14/martorell8.jpg

      The woman in this altarpiece is a "foreigner," but the only variances
      in her dress (i.e., differences from how normal women dressed) are
      the vee neckline and possibly the way her head covering is wrapped.
      Otherwise, the characteristics of her dress are found elsewhere in
      Spanish art of the same time period.

      Jehanne
    • Catharine Decker
      Thank you! This is very interesting. Would it be safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck would be appropriate on gowns at least from this era on?
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 3, 2008
        Thank you! This is very interesting. Would it be safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck would be appropriate on gowns at least from this era on? It seems to me that even if they weren't used for growth tucks per se, if they were used for decoration, then it would still be acceptable. No?

        Catharine
      • Rebecca Klingbeil
        ... I suppose it also depends not only on time period but also on the age of the child. As I have been gathering and sorting images from SCA period (business
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 3, 2008
          --- Catharine Decker <cdeckerwi@...> wrote:

          > Thank you! This is very interesting. Would it be
          > safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck
          > would be appropriate on gowns at least from this era
          > on? It seems to me that even if they weren't used
          > for growth tucks per se, if they were used for
          > decoration, then it would still be acceptable. No?
          >
          > Catharine

          I suppose it also depends not only on time period but
          also on the age of the child. As I have been gathering
          and sorting images from SCA period (business project),
          I have noticed quite a number of images of children.
          Not just the Child in Madonnas, though you can see a
          variety of ways that very young children were dressed
          that way. Usually they are on the edges of crowd
          scenes and such, and they are more common then one
          would think. Portraits are another matter - the
          children in those seem dressed up in their best
          finery.

          At least for the early to middle of period, most
          children seem to be dressed in unstructured
          lose-fitting garments like t-tunics. Even when the
          adults around them are wearing close fitting
          coathardies and kirtles and such, children are wearing
          loose tunics with simple belts, often with a slit in
          front for freedom of movement. Even older children
          seem to wear simpler versions of grown up clothing.
          It's as if parents were practical and said 'We're not
          going to put anything on you with a lot of labor
          involved until you've stopped growing.' There are
          exceptions, of course, but even when the clothes are
          closefitting like adults, they seem simpler in nearly
          all cases.

          Examples:
          A young child in a simple tunic with a slit, 13thc.:
          http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=16490

          An older boy [far right of painting] in a loose tunic
          with belt and pouch and hood, 1312-1317:
          http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=26880

          Three boys of what we'd call 'grade school' age
          perhaps, bottom left of picture, 1328-1330:
          http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=23133

          Boys climbing trees [back of painting], 1365-1368:
          http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=21226

          Man leading a toddler/preschooler away from the crowd
          [bottom left], 1380 with an older child behind:
          http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=21226


          A woman holding a toddler who dressed for easy
          clean-up, 1426-1427:
          http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=24791

          Child - perhaps girl but given the period and age
          might be a boy - in the front of the crowd [center],
          1426-1427:
          http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=24793

          Older boy/youth [far right of this detail of a
          painting] 1437:
          http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=21198

          A whole group of children of different ages [bottom
          right] 1447:
          http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=24952

          Child with his mother [left of painting] 1464-1467:
          http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=21840

          A number of young children, the oldest wearing
          something that he certainly has a lot of growing room
          in [center front, striped clothing] 1509:
          http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=19681

          I haven't gotten much into the 16th c. though. Perhaps
          as clothes became more complicated and more, I don't
          know, structured? - things changed. We'll see as I
          progress through the artwork.

          Leofwynn Marchaunt
        • Joan Mielke Yost
          Would it be safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck would be appropriate on gowns at least from this era on? Actually, no. As far as I have been
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 4, 2008
            Would it be safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck would be
            appropriate on gowns at least from this era on?

            Actually, no. As far as I have been able to learn, this particular
            feature of women's dress is specific to 15th c. Spain. I does show up
            again later, but not until after the 17th century.

            Jehanne
          • Catharine Decker
            Ah, OK. Thanks. What are your thoughts on a wide hem, to be let out to lengthen the sleeves and bottom hem? Catharine
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 4, 2008
              Ah, OK. Thanks.

              What are your thoughts on a wide hem, to be let out to lengthen the sleeves
              and bottom hem?

              Catharine
            • Carrie
              ... sleeves ... I personally do this after the time I made my daughter 4 new dresses and then she hit a growth spurt and they were no longer wearable and she
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 5, 2008
                > What are your thoughts on a wide hem, to be let out to lengthen the
                sleeves
                > and bottom hem?
                >
                > Catharine
                >
                I personally do this after the time I made my daughter 4 new dresses
                and then she hit a growth spurt and they were no longer wearable and
                she had only worn them once. Now I add extra length in the hem to be
                let down. I don't worry too much about the sleeves because most of
                what we wear here in Trimaris is short sleeved anyway so I just make
                them a little long the first time. I have found that the dresses last
                a little longer this way.

                Grainne mhic Neill
              • sue_clemenger
                ... then that the use of such a tuck would be appropriate on gowns at least from this era on? It seems to me that even if they weren t used for growth tucks
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 10, 2008
                  --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Catharine Decker <cdeckerwi@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Thank you! This is very interesting. Would it be safe to conclude
                  then that the use of such a tuck would be appropriate on gowns at least
                  from this era on? It seems to me that even if they weren't used for
                  growth tucks per se, if they were used for decoration, then it would
                  still be acceptable. No?
                  >
                  > Catharine
                  >
                  Hi, Catharine!
                  I've got several images in a book on Sofonisba Anguissola (late
                  16th/early 17th c. painter), in which she's depicting children, and
                  IIRC, the skirts of the little girls distinctly show growth tucks. And
                  these are princesses of the Spanish court, in fancy clothing, so we're
                  definitely talking upper class.
                  --Maire
                • sue_clemenger
                  ... be ... up ... Jehanne, I ve got pictures of substantial tucks in children s skirts in late 16th century Spain. So it s not just skipping from the 15th to
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 10, 2008
                    --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Joan Mielke Yost"
                    <joan.mielke.yost@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Would it be safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck would
                    be
                    > appropriate on gowns at least from this era on?
                    >
                    > Actually, no. As far as I have been able to learn, this particular
                    > feature of women's dress is specific to 15th c. Spain. I does show
                    up
                    > again later, but not until after the 17th century.
                    >
                    > Jehanne
                    >

                    Jehanne, I've got pictures of substantial tucks in children's skirts in
                    late 16th century Spain. So it's not just skipping from the 15th to
                    the 18th centuries and in adult clothing....
                    --Maire
                  • Hera Davidson
                    Hi I wouldn t necessarily say that the tucks on the infantas dresses are growth tucks, as these tucks also appear on the dresses of adult women, such as their
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 10, 2008
                      Hi
                      I wouldn't necessarily say that the tucks on the infantas dresses are growth tucks, as these tucks also appear on the dresses of adult women, such as their stepmother's.
                      Cheers
                      Hera
                    • Rebecca Klingbeil
                      ... For those who may be somewhat confused: Sofonisba Anguissola was one of 6 sisters, all painters, from Italy. Their father was extremely forward thinking
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 10, 2008
                        --- sue_clemenger <sue_clemenger@...> wrote:

                        > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Catharine
                        > Decker <cdeckerwi@...>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Thank you! This is very interesting. Would it be
                        > safe to conclude
                        > then that the use of such a tuck would be
                        > appropriate on gowns at least
                        > from this era on? It seems to me that even if they
                        > weren't used for
                        > growth tucks per se, if they were used for
                        > decoration, then it would
                        > still be acceptable. No?
                        > >
                        > > Catharine
                        > >
                        > Hi, Catharine!
                        > I've got several images in a book on Sofonisba
                        > Anguissola (late
                        > 16th/early 17th c. painter), in which she's
                        > depicting children, and
                        > IIRC, the skirts of the little girls distinctly show
                        > growth tucks. And
                        > these are princesses of the Spanish court, in fancy
                        > clothing, so we're
                        > definitely talking upper class.
                        > --Maire
                        >
                        >

                        For those who may be somewhat confused: Sofonisba
                        Anguissola was one of 6 sisters, all painters, from
                        Italy. Their father was extremely forward thinking for
                        his time and gave them education and training not
                        normally available to women, even of their class. She
                        spent time as a lady-in-waiting in the Spanish court,
                        and is best known for her portraiture, especially of
                        her sisters and family. She was limited in her ability
                        to take on commissions of religious paintings, etc.,
                        because she was unable to freely study anatomy or the
                        drawing of nudes. She eventually married an Italian
                        (and later as a widow another Italian).

                        So, if you look her up, you must look under Italian
                        artists - even though she did a number of portraits of
                        the ladies of the Spanish court.

                        Leofwynn Marchaunt
                      • Joan Mielke Yost
                        ... in late 16th century Spain. So it s not just skipping from the 15th to ... Thank you for the information. I haven t had access to later Spanish images.
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 11, 2008
                          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "sue_clemenger"
                          <sue_clemenger@...> wrote:
                          > Jehanne, I've got pictures of substantial tucks in children's skirts
                          in late 16th century Spain. So it's not just skipping from the 15th to
                          > the 18th centuries and in adult clothing....
                          > --Maire
                          >
                          Thank you for the information. I haven't had access to later Spanish
                          images.

                          Fashion was ever fickle, as it is today. I wonder though, why this
                          design detail does not show up in art from other regions as did other
                          Spanish fashions.

                          Jehanne
                        • Ann Catelli
                          Because the Spanish dressed funny. I.e., there was a distinct Spanish style for as far back as I ve seen Spanish clothing, not exactly like the core
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 11, 2008
                            Because the Spanish dressed funny. I.e., there was a distinct Spanish style for as far back as I've seen Spanish clothing, not exactly like the core England/France/Lowlands areas that are fairly easy for an English-speaker to research.

                            I'm sure those Spanish people who cared thought all through all the years that foreigners dressed funny, of course.

                            Copying a style, as the English were so fond of during Elizabeth's reign, rarely means actually wearing the whole outfit as the source would.

                            Ann in CT

                            > Fashion was ever fickle, as it is today. I wonder though, why this
                            > design detail does not show up in art from other regions as did other
                            > Spanish fashions.
                            >
                            > Jehanne
                          • Joan Mielke Yost
                            ... Yes, they really did. Jehanne
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 11, 2008
                              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Ann Catelli <elvestoorder@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Because the Spanish dressed funny.

                              <Grin!>
                              Yes, they really did.

                              Jehanne
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