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Re: When were "growth tucks" used in children's clothing?

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  • Joan Mielke
    Thanks Karen for posting such a wonderful resource. What I was thinking about the length of children s tunics was not so much that they were belted, but simply
    Message 1 of 25 , Jul 21, 2008
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      Thanks Karen for posting such a wonderful resource.

      What I was thinking about the length of children's tunics was not so much
      that they were belted, but simply that they were not full length.

      Jehanne
    • mary_m_haselbauer
      I hadn t thought of it this way. I ve tried different ways of making my daughter s clothing growable but this hasn t always been graceful. I think in period
      Message 2 of 25 , Jul 25, 2008
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        I hadn't thought of it this way. I've tried different ways of making
        my daughter's clothing growable but this hasn't always been graceful.
        I think in period for day to day clothing a family might not think in
        terms of each child having their own clothes. They'd have a box of
        tunics and which ever kid they fit would get to wear them. Maybe for
        a special occasion new clothing would be made for individual kids but
        it would fit them then. I have no evidence for this as I'm just
        trying to think in terms of people living closer together and having
        larger families.

        The surviving children's clothing that I know about do not have any
        growth allowances built in. However, they are almost exclusively
        burial items which biases the information.

        Karen thank you for all the work you've done in assembing images.
        Just last night I directed people to your site when I did a class
        about period toys.

        Cheers,
        Slaine
        B3R, Calontir
      • oisswafford
        ... wrote: Thank you all for your help on this. Gwenlliana.
        Message 3 of 25 , Jul 30, 2008
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          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "quokkaqueen"
          <quokkaqueen@...> wrote:
          Thank you all for your help on this.

          Gwenlliana.
        • Joan Mielke Yost
          ... clothing... it was common to sew tucks into the hemlines and sleeves of children, so that as the child grew, the tucks could be taken out, thereby
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 3, 2008
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            > My question at the moment is about "growth tucks" in children's
            clothing... it was common to sew tucks into the hemlines and
            sleeves of children, so that as the child grew, the tucks could be
            taken out, thereby lengthening the sleeves/hemlines so the child
            could wear the garment longer.

            Catherine,
            It took me a while to find this image on-line...This image shows a
            mid-15th century Spanish overgown with a tuck in it that certainly
            looks like a growth tuck. This feature is found in other Spanish
            women's gowns around the same time, but I have never seen it
            elsewhere. It seems to show up around the same time as the pre-
            farthingale skirt with the bones sewn into the outer fabric.
            However, in this dress, the purpose is clearly not to hold the skirt
            out...

            http://www.all-art.org/gothic_era/page14/martorell8.jpg

            The woman in this altarpiece is a "foreigner," but the only variances
            in her dress (i.e., differences from how normal women dressed) are
            the vee neckline and possibly the way her head covering is wrapped.
            Otherwise, the characteristics of her dress are found elsewhere in
            Spanish art of the same time period.

            Jehanne
          • Catharine Decker
            Thank you! This is very interesting. Would it be safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck would be appropriate on gowns at least from this era on?
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 3, 2008
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              Thank you! This is very interesting. Would it be safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck would be appropriate on gowns at least from this era on? It seems to me that even if they weren't used for growth tucks per se, if they were used for decoration, then it would still be acceptable. No?

              Catharine
            • Rebecca Klingbeil
              ... I suppose it also depends not only on time period but also on the age of the child. As I have been gathering and sorting images from SCA period (business
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 3, 2008
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                --- Catharine Decker <cdeckerwi@...> wrote:

                > Thank you! This is very interesting. Would it be
                > safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck
                > would be appropriate on gowns at least from this era
                > on? It seems to me that even if they weren't used
                > for growth tucks per se, if they were used for
                > decoration, then it would still be acceptable. No?
                >
                > Catharine

                I suppose it also depends not only on time period but
                also on the age of the child. As I have been gathering
                and sorting images from SCA period (business project),
                I have noticed quite a number of images of children.
                Not just the Child in Madonnas, though you can see a
                variety of ways that very young children were dressed
                that way. Usually they are on the edges of crowd
                scenes and such, and they are more common then one
                would think. Portraits are another matter - the
                children in those seem dressed up in their best
                finery.

                At least for the early to middle of period, most
                children seem to be dressed in unstructured
                lose-fitting garments like t-tunics. Even when the
                adults around them are wearing close fitting
                coathardies and kirtles and such, children are wearing
                loose tunics with simple belts, often with a slit in
                front for freedom of movement. Even older children
                seem to wear simpler versions of grown up clothing.
                It's as if parents were practical and said 'We're not
                going to put anything on you with a lot of labor
                involved until you've stopped growing.' There are
                exceptions, of course, but even when the clothes are
                closefitting like adults, they seem simpler in nearly
                all cases.

                Examples:
                A young child in a simple tunic with a slit, 13thc.:
                http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=16490

                An older boy [far right of painting] in a loose tunic
                with belt and pouch and hood, 1312-1317:
                http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=26880

                Three boys of what we'd call 'grade school' age
                perhaps, bottom left of picture, 1328-1330:
                http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=23133

                Boys climbing trees [back of painting], 1365-1368:
                http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=21226

                Man leading a toddler/preschooler away from the crowd
                [bottom left], 1380 with an older child behind:
                http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=21226


                A woman holding a toddler who dressed for easy
                clean-up, 1426-1427:
                http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=24791

                Child - perhaps girl but given the period and age
                might be a boy - in the front of the crowd [center],
                1426-1427:
                http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=24793

                Older boy/youth [far right of this detail of a
                painting] 1437:
                http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=21198

                A whole group of children of different ages [bottom
                right] 1447:
                http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=24952

                Child with his mother [left of painting] 1464-1467:
                http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=21840

                A number of young children, the oldest wearing
                something that he certainly has a lot of growing room
                in [center front, striped clothing] 1509:
                http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=19681

                I haven't gotten much into the 16th c. though. Perhaps
                as clothes became more complicated and more, I don't
                know, structured? - things changed. We'll see as I
                progress through the artwork.

                Leofwynn Marchaunt
              • Joan Mielke Yost
                Would it be safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck would be appropriate on gowns at least from this era on? Actually, no. As far as I have been
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 4, 2008
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                  Would it be safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck would be
                  appropriate on gowns at least from this era on?

                  Actually, no. As far as I have been able to learn, this particular
                  feature of women's dress is specific to 15th c. Spain. I does show up
                  again later, but not until after the 17th century.

                  Jehanne
                • Catharine Decker
                  Ah, OK. Thanks. What are your thoughts on a wide hem, to be let out to lengthen the sleeves and bottom hem? Catharine
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 4, 2008
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                    Ah, OK. Thanks.

                    What are your thoughts on a wide hem, to be let out to lengthen the sleeves
                    and bottom hem?

                    Catharine
                  • Carrie
                    ... sleeves ... I personally do this after the time I made my daughter 4 new dresses and then she hit a growth spurt and they were no longer wearable and she
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 5, 2008
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                      > What are your thoughts on a wide hem, to be let out to lengthen the
                      sleeves
                      > and bottom hem?
                      >
                      > Catharine
                      >
                      I personally do this after the time I made my daughter 4 new dresses
                      and then she hit a growth spurt and they were no longer wearable and
                      she had only worn them once. Now I add extra length in the hem to be
                      let down. I don't worry too much about the sleeves because most of
                      what we wear here in Trimaris is short sleeved anyway so I just make
                      them a little long the first time. I have found that the dresses last
                      a little longer this way.

                      Grainne mhic Neill
                    • sue_clemenger
                      ... then that the use of such a tuck would be appropriate on gowns at least from this era on? It seems to me that even if they weren t used for growth tucks
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 10, 2008
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                        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Catharine Decker <cdeckerwi@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Thank you! This is very interesting. Would it be safe to conclude
                        then that the use of such a tuck would be appropriate on gowns at least
                        from this era on? It seems to me that even if they weren't used for
                        growth tucks per se, if they were used for decoration, then it would
                        still be acceptable. No?
                        >
                        > Catharine
                        >
                        Hi, Catharine!
                        I've got several images in a book on Sofonisba Anguissola (late
                        16th/early 17th c. painter), in which she's depicting children, and
                        IIRC, the skirts of the little girls distinctly show growth tucks. And
                        these are princesses of the Spanish court, in fancy clothing, so we're
                        definitely talking upper class.
                        --Maire
                      • sue_clemenger
                        ... be ... up ... Jehanne, I ve got pictures of substantial tucks in children s skirts in late 16th century Spain. So it s not just skipping from the 15th to
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 10, 2008
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                          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Joan Mielke Yost"
                          <joan.mielke.yost@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Would it be safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck would
                          be
                          > appropriate on gowns at least from this era on?
                          >
                          > Actually, no. As far as I have been able to learn, this particular
                          > feature of women's dress is specific to 15th c. Spain. I does show
                          up
                          > again later, but not until after the 17th century.
                          >
                          > Jehanne
                          >

                          Jehanne, I've got pictures of substantial tucks in children's skirts in
                          late 16th century Spain. So it's not just skipping from the 15th to
                          the 18th centuries and in adult clothing....
                          --Maire
                        • Hera Davidson
                          Hi I wouldn t necessarily say that the tucks on the infantas dresses are growth tucks, as these tucks also appear on the dresses of adult women, such as their
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 10, 2008
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                            Hi
                            I wouldn't necessarily say that the tucks on the infantas dresses are growth tucks, as these tucks also appear on the dresses of adult women, such as their stepmother's.
                            Cheers
                            Hera
                          • Rebecca Klingbeil
                            ... For those who may be somewhat confused: Sofonisba Anguissola was one of 6 sisters, all painters, from Italy. Their father was extremely forward thinking
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 10, 2008
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                              --- sue_clemenger <sue_clemenger@...> wrote:

                              > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Catharine
                              > Decker <cdeckerwi@...>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Thank you! This is very interesting. Would it be
                              > safe to conclude
                              > then that the use of such a tuck would be
                              > appropriate on gowns at least
                              > from this era on? It seems to me that even if they
                              > weren't used for
                              > growth tucks per se, if they were used for
                              > decoration, then it would
                              > still be acceptable. No?
                              > >
                              > > Catharine
                              > >
                              > Hi, Catharine!
                              > I've got several images in a book on Sofonisba
                              > Anguissola (late
                              > 16th/early 17th c. painter), in which she's
                              > depicting children, and
                              > IIRC, the skirts of the little girls distinctly show
                              > growth tucks. And
                              > these are princesses of the Spanish court, in fancy
                              > clothing, so we're
                              > definitely talking upper class.
                              > --Maire
                              >
                              >

                              For those who may be somewhat confused: Sofonisba
                              Anguissola was one of 6 sisters, all painters, from
                              Italy. Their father was extremely forward thinking for
                              his time and gave them education and training not
                              normally available to women, even of their class. She
                              spent time as a lady-in-waiting in the Spanish court,
                              and is best known for her portraiture, especially of
                              her sisters and family. She was limited in her ability
                              to take on commissions of religious paintings, etc.,
                              because she was unable to freely study anatomy or the
                              drawing of nudes. She eventually married an Italian
                              (and later as a widow another Italian).

                              So, if you look her up, you must look under Italian
                              artists - even though she did a number of portraits of
                              the ladies of the Spanish court.

                              Leofwynn Marchaunt
                            • Joan Mielke Yost
                              ... in late 16th century Spain. So it s not just skipping from the 15th to ... Thank you for the information. I haven t had access to later Spanish images.
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 11, 2008
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                                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "sue_clemenger"
                                <sue_clemenger@...> wrote:
                                > Jehanne, I've got pictures of substantial tucks in children's skirts
                                in late 16th century Spain. So it's not just skipping from the 15th to
                                > the 18th centuries and in adult clothing....
                                > --Maire
                                >
                                Thank you for the information. I haven't had access to later Spanish
                                images.

                                Fashion was ever fickle, as it is today. I wonder though, why this
                                design detail does not show up in art from other regions as did other
                                Spanish fashions.

                                Jehanne
                              • Ann Catelli
                                Because the Spanish dressed funny. I.e., there was a distinct Spanish style for as far back as I ve seen Spanish clothing, not exactly like the core
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 11, 2008
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                                  Because the Spanish dressed funny. I.e., there was a distinct Spanish style for as far back as I've seen Spanish clothing, not exactly like the core England/France/Lowlands areas that are fairly easy for an English-speaker to research.

                                  I'm sure those Spanish people who cared thought all through all the years that foreigners dressed funny, of course.

                                  Copying a style, as the English were so fond of during Elizabeth's reign, rarely means actually wearing the whole outfit as the source would.

                                  Ann in CT

                                  > Fashion was ever fickle, as it is today. I wonder though, why this
                                  > design detail does not show up in art from other regions as did other
                                  > Spanish fashions.
                                  >
                                  > Jehanne
                                • Joan Mielke Yost
                                  ... Yes, they really did. Jehanne
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Aug 11, 2008
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                                    --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Ann Catelli <elvestoorder@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Because the Spanish dressed funny.

                                    <Grin!>
                                    Yes, they really did.

                                    Jehanne
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