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Re: tudor shoulder bag

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  • quokkaqueen
    There s a 16th century book bag that might be helpful to look at (it s Coptic, not English though.)
    Message 1 of 25 , Jul 20, 2008
      There's a 16th century book bag that might be helpful to look at (it's
      Coptic, not English though.)
      http://libweb5.princeton.edu/visual_materials/hb/cases/earlycodex/index.html

      Although earlier (this article claims pre 13th century), book satchels
      in Ireland are at least geographically closer:
      http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/adsdata/arch-769-1/ahds/dissemination/pdf/vol12/12_070_082.pdf

      As for images of women wearing satchels, page 14 of this google book
      has a photo of a painting, with a women in the top right-hand corner.
      http://books.google.com.au/books?id=FNhYbgeRKLwC
      On page 15, there is a drawing by Lucas van Leyden which also shows a
      pilgrim-woman with a scrip.

      It isn't exactly what you were looking for, but hopefully it's better
      than nothing.
      ~Asfridhr

      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "oisswafford" <oisswafford@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > I would like to make a shoulder bag for events but I haven't been able
      > to find any images or other evidence that a women of my time period
      > (1530-1550)would have carried one. Can anyone point me towards
      > references?
      >
      > Thank you,
      > Gwenlliana
      >
    • Karen
      That style seems to be fairly consistent with illustrations of grown men s clothing in the Golden Haggadah, though:
      Message 2 of 25 , Jul 20, 2008
        That style seems to be fairly consistent with illustrations of grown men's clothing in the Golden Haggadah, though:
        http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/results.asp?image=011765
        http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/results.asp?image=012179
        So I'm not sure we can really say for sure that the fullness above the belt is specifically meant to allow for children's growth, since those men seem fairly grown-up to me. ;-) It seems fairly consistent with what we see on children in the early 14th century in general.

        I've been collecting images of children's clothing at http://larsdatter.com/children.htm in case that's of use, but I don't remember any specific examples there that show distinct evidence of what you're looking for.

        Karen
      • Joan Mielke
        Thanks Karen for posting such a wonderful resource. What I was thinking about the length of children s tunics was not so much that they were belted, but simply
        Message 3 of 25 , Jul 21, 2008
          Thanks Karen for posting such a wonderful resource.

          What I was thinking about the length of children's tunics was not so much
          that they were belted, but simply that they were not full length.

          Jehanne
        • mary_m_haselbauer
          I hadn t thought of it this way. I ve tried different ways of making my daughter s clothing growable but this hasn t always been graceful. I think in period
          Message 4 of 25 , Jul 25, 2008
            I hadn't thought of it this way. I've tried different ways of making
            my daughter's clothing growable but this hasn't always been graceful.
            I think in period for day to day clothing a family might not think in
            terms of each child having their own clothes. They'd have a box of
            tunics and which ever kid they fit would get to wear them. Maybe for
            a special occasion new clothing would be made for individual kids but
            it would fit them then. I have no evidence for this as I'm just
            trying to think in terms of people living closer together and having
            larger families.

            The surviving children's clothing that I know about do not have any
            growth allowances built in. However, they are almost exclusively
            burial items which biases the information.

            Karen thank you for all the work you've done in assembing images.
            Just last night I directed people to your site when I did a class
            about period toys.

            Cheers,
            Slaine
            B3R, Calontir
          • oisswafford
            ... wrote: Thank you all for your help on this. Gwenlliana.
            Message 5 of 25 , Jul 30, 2008
              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "quokkaqueen"
              <quokkaqueen@...> wrote:
              Thank you all for your help on this.

              Gwenlliana.
            • Joan Mielke Yost
              ... clothing... it was common to sew tucks into the hemlines and sleeves of children, so that as the child grew, the tucks could be taken out, thereby
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 3, 2008
                > My question at the moment is about "growth tucks" in children's
                clothing... it was common to sew tucks into the hemlines and
                sleeves of children, so that as the child grew, the tucks could be
                taken out, thereby lengthening the sleeves/hemlines so the child
                could wear the garment longer.

                Catherine,
                It took me a while to find this image on-line...This image shows a
                mid-15th century Spanish overgown with a tuck in it that certainly
                looks like a growth tuck. This feature is found in other Spanish
                women's gowns around the same time, but I have never seen it
                elsewhere. It seems to show up around the same time as the pre-
                farthingale skirt with the bones sewn into the outer fabric.
                However, in this dress, the purpose is clearly not to hold the skirt
                out...

                http://www.all-art.org/gothic_era/page14/martorell8.jpg

                The woman in this altarpiece is a "foreigner," but the only variances
                in her dress (i.e., differences from how normal women dressed) are
                the vee neckline and possibly the way her head covering is wrapped.
                Otherwise, the characteristics of her dress are found elsewhere in
                Spanish art of the same time period.

                Jehanne
              • Catharine Decker
                Thank you! This is very interesting. Would it be safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck would be appropriate on gowns at least from this era on?
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 3, 2008
                  Thank you! This is very interesting. Would it be safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck would be appropriate on gowns at least from this era on? It seems to me that even if they weren't used for growth tucks per se, if they were used for decoration, then it would still be acceptable. No?

                  Catharine
                • Rebecca Klingbeil
                  ... I suppose it also depends not only on time period but also on the age of the child. As I have been gathering and sorting images from SCA period (business
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 3, 2008
                    --- Catharine Decker <cdeckerwi@...> wrote:

                    > Thank you! This is very interesting. Would it be
                    > safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck
                    > would be appropriate on gowns at least from this era
                    > on? It seems to me that even if they weren't used
                    > for growth tucks per se, if they were used for
                    > decoration, then it would still be acceptable. No?
                    >
                    > Catharine

                    I suppose it also depends not only on time period but
                    also on the age of the child. As I have been gathering
                    and sorting images from SCA period (business project),
                    I have noticed quite a number of images of children.
                    Not just the Child in Madonnas, though you can see a
                    variety of ways that very young children were dressed
                    that way. Usually they are on the edges of crowd
                    scenes and such, and they are more common then one
                    would think. Portraits are another matter - the
                    children in those seem dressed up in their best
                    finery.

                    At least for the early to middle of period, most
                    children seem to be dressed in unstructured
                    lose-fitting garments like t-tunics. Even when the
                    adults around them are wearing close fitting
                    coathardies and kirtles and such, children are wearing
                    loose tunics with simple belts, often with a slit in
                    front for freedom of movement. Even older children
                    seem to wear simpler versions of grown up clothing.
                    It's as if parents were practical and said 'We're not
                    going to put anything on you with a lot of labor
                    involved until you've stopped growing.' There are
                    exceptions, of course, but even when the clothes are
                    closefitting like adults, they seem simpler in nearly
                    all cases.

                    Examples:
                    A young child in a simple tunic with a slit, 13thc.:
                    http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=16490

                    An older boy [far right of painting] in a loose tunic
                    with belt and pouch and hood, 1312-1317:
                    http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=26880

                    Three boys of what we'd call 'grade school' age
                    perhaps, bottom left of picture, 1328-1330:
                    http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=23133

                    Boys climbing trees [back of painting], 1365-1368:
                    http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=21226

                    Man leading a toddler/preschooler away from the crowd
                    [bottom left], 1380 with an older child behind:
                    http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=21226


                    A woman holding a toddler who dressed for easy
                    clean-up, 1426-1427:
                    http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=24791

                    Child - perhaps girl but given the period and age
                    might be a boy - in the front of the crowd [center],
                    1426-1427:
                    http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=24793

                    Older boy/youth [far right of this detail of a
                    painting] 1437:
                    http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=21198

                    A whole group of children of different ages [bottom
                    right] 1447:
                    http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=24952

                    Child with his mother [left of painting] 1464-1467:
                    http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=21840

                    A number of young children, the oldest wearing
                    something that he certainly has a lot of growing room
                    in [center front, striped clothing] 1509:
                    http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=19681

                    I haven't gotten much into the 16th c. though. Perhaps
                    as clothes became more complicated and more, I don't
                    know, structured? - things changed. We'll see as I
                    progress through the artwork.

                    Leofwynn Marchaunt
                  • Joan Mielke Yost
                    Would it be safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck would be appropriate on gowns at least from this era on? Actually, no. As far as I have been
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 4, 2008
                      Would it be safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck would be
                      appropriate on gowns at least from this era on?

                      Actually, no. As far as I have been able to learn, this particular
                      feature of women's dress is specific to 15th c. Spain. I does show up
                      again later, but not until after the 17th century.

                      Jehanne
                    • Catharine Decker
                      Ah, OK. Thanks. What are your thoughts on a wide hem, to be let out to lengthen the sleeves and bottom hem? Catharine
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 4, 2008
                        Ah, OK. Thanks.

                        What are your thoughts on a wide hem, to be let out to lengthen the sleeves
                        and bottom hem?

                        Catharine
                      • Carrie
                        ... sleeves ... I personally do this after the time I made my daughter 4 new dresses and then she hit a growth spurt and they were no longer wearable and she
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 5, 2008
                          > What are your thoughts on a wide hem, to be let out to lengthen the
                          sleeves
                          > and bottom hem?
                          >
                          > Catharine
                          >
                          I personally do this after the time I made my daughter 4 new dresses
                          and then she hit a growth spurt and they were no longer wearable and
                          she had only worn them once. Now I add extra length in the hem to be
                          let down. I don't worry too much about the sleeves because most of
                          what we wear here in Trimaris is short sleeved anyway so I just make
                          them a little long the first time. I have found that the dresses last
                          a little longer this way.

                          Grainne mhic Neill
                        • sue_clemenger
                          ... then that the use of such a tuck would be appropriate on gowns at least from this era on? It seems to me that even if they weren t used for growth tucks
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 10, 2008
                            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Catharine Decker <cdeckerwi@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Thank you! This is very interesting. Would it be safe to conclude
                            then that the use of such a tuck would be appropriate on gowns at least
                            from this era on? It seems to me that even if they weren't used for
                            growth tucks per se, if they were used for decoration, then it would
                            still be acceptable. No?
                            >
                            > Catharine
                            >
                            Hi, Catharine!
                            I've got several images in a book on Sofonisba Anguissola (late
                            16th/early 17th c. painter), in which she's depicting children, and
                            IIRC, the skirts of the little girls distinctly show growth tucks. And
                            these are princesses of the Spanish court, in fancy clothing, so we're
                            definitely talking upper class.
                            --Maire
                          • sue_clemenger
                            ... be ... up ... Jehanne, I ve got pictures of substantial tucks in children s skirts in late 16th century Spain. So it s not just skipping from the 15th to
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 10, 2008
                              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Joan Mielke Yost"
                              <joan.mielke.yost@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Would it be safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck would
                              be
                              > appropriate on gowns at least from this era on?
                              >
                              > Actually, no. As far as I have been able to learn, this particular
                              > feature of women's dress is specific to 15th c. Spain. I does show
                              up
                              > again later, but not until after the 17th century.
                              >
                              > Jehanne
                              >

                              Jehanne, I've got pictures of substantial tucks in children's skirts in
                              late 16th century Spain. So it's not just skipping from the 15th to
                              the 18th centuries and in adult clothing....
                              --Maire
                            • Hera Davidson
                              Hi I wouldn t necessarily say that the tucks on the infantas dresses are growth tucks, as these tucks also appear on the dresses of adult women, such as their
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 10, 2008
                                Hi
                                I wouldn't necessarily say that the tucks on the infantas dresses are growth tucks, as these tucks also appear on the dresses of adult women, such as their stepmother's.
                                Cheers
                                Hera
                              • Rebecca Klingbeil
                                ... For those who may be somewhat confused: Sofonisba Anguissola was one of 6 sisters, all painters, from Italy. Their father was extremely forward thinking
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 10, 2008
                                  --- sue_clemenger <sue_clemenger@...> wrote:

                                  > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Catharine
                                  > Decker <cdeckerwi@...>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Thank you! This is very interesting. Would it be
                                  > safe to conclude
                                  > then that the use of such a tuck would be
                                  > appropriate on gowns at least
                                  > from this era on? It seems to me that even if they
                                  > weren't used for
                                  > growth tucks per se, if they were used for
                                  > decoration, then it would
                                  > still be acceptable. No?
                                  > >
                                  > > Catharine
                                  > >
                                  > Hi, Catharine!
                                  > I've got several images in a book on Sofonisba
                                  > Anguissola (late
                                  > 16th/early 17th c. painter), in which she's
                                  > depicting children, and
                                  > IIRC, the skirts of the little girls distinctly show
                                  > growth tucks. And
                                  > these are princesses of the Spanish court, in fancy
                                  > clothing, so we're
                                  > definitely talking upper class.
                                  > --Maire
                                  >
                                  >

                                  For those who may be somewhat confused: Sofonisba
                                  Anguissola was one of 6 sisters, all painters, from
                                  Italy. Their father was extremely forward thinking for
                                  his time and gave them education and training not
                                  normally available to women, even of their class. She
                                  spent time as a lady-in-waiting in the Spanish court,
                                  and is best known for her portraiture, especially of
                                  her sisters and family. She was limited in her ability
                                  to take on commissions of religious paintings, etc.,
                                  because she was unable to freely study anatomy or the
                                  drawing of nudes. She eventually married an Italian
                                  (and later as a widow another Italian).

                                  So, if you look her up, you must look under Italian
                                  artists - even though she did a number of portraits of
                                  the ladies of the Spanish court.

                                  Leofwynn Marchaunt
                                • Joan Mielke Yost
                                  ... in late 16th century Spain. So it s not just skipping from the 15th to ... Thank you for the information. I haven t had access to later Spanish images.
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Aug 11, 2008
                                    --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "sue_clemenger"
                                    <sue_clemenger@...> wrote:
                                    > Jehanne, I've got pictures of substantial tucks in children's skirts
                                    in late 16th century Spain. So it's not just skipping from the 15th to
                                    > the 18th centuries and in adult clothing....
                                    > --Maire
                                    >
                                    Thank you for the information. I haven't had access to later Spanish
                                    images.

                                    Fashion was ever fickle, as it is today. I wonder though, why this
                                    design detail does not show up in art from other regions as did other
                                    Spanish fashions.

                                    Jehanne
                                  • Ann Catelli
                                    Because the Spanish dressed funny. I.e., there was a distinct Spanish style for as far back as I ve seen Spanish clothing, not exactly like the core
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Aug 11, 2008
                                      Because the Spanish dressed funny. I.e., there was a distinct Spanish style for as far back as I've seen Spanish clothing, not exactly like the core England/France/Lowlands areas that are fairly easy for an English-speaker to research.

                                      I'm sure those Spanish people who cared thought all through all the years that foreigners dressed funny, of course.

                                      Copying a style, as the English were so fond of during Elizabeth's reign, rarely means actually wearing the whole outfit as the source would.

                                      Ann in CT

                                      > Fashion was ever fickle, as it is today. I wonder though, why this
                                      > design detail does not show up in art from other regions as did other
                                      > Spanish fashions.
                                      >
                                      > Jehanne
                                    • Joan Mielke Yost
                                      ... Yes, they really did. Jehanne
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Aug 11, 2008
                                        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Ann Catelli <elvestoorder@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Because the Spanish dressed funny.

                                        <Grin!>
                                        Yes, they really did.

                                        Jehanne
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