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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: When were "growth tucks" used in children's clothing?

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  • kittencat3@aol.com
    There s evidence of growth tucks in children s clothing as far back as the Copts (there was a terrific presentation that mentioned this at Kalamazoo this
    Message 1 of 25 , Jul 19, 2008
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      There's evidence of growth tucks in children's clothing as far back as the
      Copts (there was a terrific presentation that mentioned this at Kalamazoo this
      year). There's also some evidence of adult clothing being cut down for
      children's wear.

      Sarah Davies



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    • quokkaqueen
      There s a 16th century book bag that might be helpful to look at (it s Coptic, not English though.)
      Message 2 of 25 , Jul 20, 2008
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        There's a 16th century book bag that might be helpful to look at (it's
        Coptic, not English though.)
        http://libweb5.princeton.edu/visual_materials/hb/cases/earlycodex/index.html

        Although earlier (this article claims pre 13th century), book satchels
        in Ireland are at least geographically closer:
        http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/adsdata/arch-769-1/ahds/dissemination/pdf/vol12/12_070_082.pdf

        As for images of women wearing satchels, page 14 of this google book
        has a photo of a painting, with a women in the top right-hand corner.
        http://books.google.com.au/books?id=FNhYbgeRKLwC
        On page 15, there is a drawing by Lucas van Leyden which also shows a
        pilgrim-woman with a scrip.

        It isn't exactly what you were looking for, but hopefully it's better
        than nothing.
        ~Asfridhr

        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "oisswafford" <oisswafford@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > I would like to make a shoulder bag for events but I haven't been able
        > to find any images or other evidence that a women of my time period
        > (1530-1550)would have carried one. Can anyone point me towards
        > references?
        >
        > Thank you,
        > Gwenlliana
        >
      • Karen
        That style seems to be fairly consistent with illustrations of grown men s clothing in the Golden Haggadah, though:
        Message 3 of 25 , Jul 20, 2008
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          That style seems to be fairly consistent with illustrations of grown men's clothing in the Golden Haggadah, though:
          http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/results.asp?image=011765
          http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/results.asp?image=012179
          So I'm not sure we can really say for sure that the fullness above the belt is specifically meant to allow for children's growth, since those men seem fairly grown-up to me. ;-) It seems fairly consistent with what we see on children in the early 14th century in general.

          I've been collecting images of children's clothing at http://larsdatter.com/children.htm in case that's of use, but I don't remember any specific examples there that show distinct evidence of what you're looking for.

          Karen
        • Joan Mielke
          Thanks Karen for posting such a wonderful resource. What I was thinking about the length of children s tunics was not so much that they were belted, but simply
          Message 4 of 25 , Jul 21, 2008
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            Thanks Karen for posting such a wonderful resource.

            What I was thinking about the length of children's tunics was not so much
            that they were belted, but simply that they were not full length.

            Jehanne
          • mary_m_haselbauer
            I hadn t thought of it this way. I ve tried different ways of making my daughter s clothing growable but this hasn t always been graceful. I think in period
            Message 5 of 25 , Jul 25, 2008
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              I hadn't thought of it this way. I've tried different ways of making
              my daughter's clothing growable but this hasn't always been graceful.
              I think in period for day to day clothing a family might not think in
              terms of each child having their own clothes. They'd have a box of
              tunics and which ever kid they fit would get to wear them. Maybe for
              a special occasion new clothing would be made for individual kids but
              it would fit them then. I have no evidence for this as I'm just
              trying to think in terms of people living closer together and having
              larger families.

              The surviving children's clothing that I know about do not have any
              growth allowances built in. However, they are almost exclusively
              burial items which biases the information.

              Karen thank you for all the work you've done in assembing images.
              Just last night I directed people to your site when I did a class
              about period toys.

              Cheers,
              Slaine
              B3R, Calontir
            • oisswafford
              ... wrote: Thank you all for your help on this. Gwenlliana.
              Message 6 of 25 , Jul 30, 2008
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                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "quokkaqueen"
                <quokkaqueen@...> wrote:
                Thank you all for your help on this.

                Gwenlliana.
              • Joan Mielke Yost
                ... clothing... it was common to sew tucks into the hemlines and sleeves of children, so that as the child grew, the tucks could be taken out, thereby
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 3, 2008
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                  > My question at the moment is about "growth tucks" in children's
                  clothing... it was common to sew tucks into the hemlines and
                  sleeves of children, so that as the child grew, the tucks could be
                  taken out, thereby lengthening the sleeves/hemlines so the child
                  could wear the garment longer.

                  Catherine,
                  It took me a while to find this image on-line...This image shows a
                  mid-15th century Spanish overgown with a tuck in it that certainly
                  looks like a growth tuck. This feature is found in other Spanish
                  women's gowns around the same time, but I have never seen it
                  elsewhere. It seems to show up around the same time as the pre-
                  farthingale skirt with the bones sewn into the outer fabric.
                  However, in this dress, the purpose is clearly not to hold the skirt
                  out...

                  http://www.all-art.org/gothic_era/page14/martorell8.jpg

                  The woman in this altarpiece is a "foreigner," but the only variances
                  in her dress (i.e., differences from how normal women dressed) are
                  the vee neckline and possibly the way her head covering is wrapped.
                  Otherwise, the characteristics of her dress are found elsewhere in
                  Spanish art of the same time period.

                  Jehanne
                • Catharine Decker
                  Thank you! This is very interesting. Would it be safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck would be appropriate on gowns at least from this era on?
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 3, 2008
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                    Thank you! This is very interesting. Would it be safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck would be appropriate on gowns at least from this era on? It seems to me that even if they weren't used for growth tucks per se, if they were used for decoration, then it would still be acceptable. No?

                    Catharine
                  • Rebecca Klingbeil
                    ... I suppose it also depends not only on time period but also on the age of the child. As I have been gathering and sorting images from SCA period (business
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 3, 2008
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                      --- Catharine Decker <cdeckerwi@...> wrote:

                      > Thank you! This is very interesting. Would it be
                      > safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck
                      > would be appropriate on gowns at least from this era
                      > on? It seems to me that even if they weren't used
                      > for growth tucks per se, if they were used for
                      > decoration, then it would still be acceptable. No?
                      >
                      > Catharine

                      I suppose it also depends not only on time period but
                      also on the age of the child. As I have been gathering
                      and sorting images from SCA period (business project),
                      I have noticed quite a number of images of children.
                      Not just the Child in Madonnas, though you can see a
                      variety of ways that very young children were dressed
                      that way. Usually they are on the edges of crowd
                      scenes and such, and they are more common then one
                      would think. Portraits are another matter - the
                      children in those seem dressed up in their best
                      finery.

                      At least for the early to middle of period, most
                      children seem to be dressed in unstructured
                      lose-fitting garments like t-tunics. Even when the
                      adults around them are wearing close fitting
                      coathardies and kirtles and such, children are wearing
                      loose tunics with simple belts, often with a slit in
                      front for freedom of movement. Even older children
                      seem to wear simpler versions of grown up clothing.
                      It's as if parents were practical and said 'We're not
                      going to put anything on you with a lot of labor
                      involved until you've stopped growing.' There are
                      exceptions, of course, but even when the clothes are
                      closefitting like adults, they seem simpler in nearly
                      all cases.

                      Examples:
                      A young child in a simple tunic with a slit, 13thc.:
                      http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=16490

                      An older boy [far right of painting] in a loose tunic
                      with belt and pouch and hood, 1312-1317:
                      http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=26880

                      Three boys of what we'd call 'grade school' age
                      perhaps, bottom left of picture, 1328-1330:
                      http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=23133

                      Boys climbing trees [back of painting], 1365-1368:
                      http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=21226

                      Man leading a toddler/preschooler away from the crowd
                      [bottom left], 1380 with an older child behind:
                      http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=21226


                      A woman holding a toddler who dressed for easy
                      clean-up, 1426-1427:
                      http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=24791

                      Child - perhaps girl but given the period and age
                      might be a boy - in the front of the crowd [center],
                      1426-1427:
                      http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=24793

                      Older boy/youth [far right of this detail of a
                      painting] 1437:
                      http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=21198

                      A whole group of children of different ages [bottom
                      right] 1447:
                      http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=24952

                      Child with his mother [left of painting] 1464-1467:
                      http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=21840

                      A number of young children, the oldest wearing
                      something that he certainly has a lot of growing room
                      in [center front, striped clothing] 1509:
                      http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=19681

                      I haven't gotten much into the 16th c. though. Perhaps
                      as clothes became more complicated and more, I don't
                      know, structured? - things changed. We'll see as I
                      progress through the artwork.

                      Leofwynn Marchaunt
                    • Joan Mielke Yost
                      Would it be safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck would be appropriate on gowns at least from this era on? Actually, no. As far as I have been
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 4, 2008
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                        Would it be safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck would be
                        appropriate on gowns at least from this era on?

                        Actually, no. As far as I have been able to learn, this particular
                        feature of women's dress is specific to 15th c. Spain. I does show up
                        again later, but not until after the 17th century.

                        Jehanne
                      • Catharine Decker
                        Ah, OK. Thanks. What are your thoughts on a wide hem, to be let out to lengthen the sleeves and bottom hem? Catharine
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 4, 2008
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                          Ah, OK. Thanks.

                          What are your thoughts on a wide hem, to be let out to lengthen the sleeves
                          and bottom hem?

                          Catharine
                        • Carrie
                          ... sleeves ... I personally do this after the time I made my daughter 4 new dresses and then she hit a growth spurt and they were no longer wearable and she
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 5, 2008
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                            > What are your thoughts on a wide hem, to be let out to lengthen the
                            sleeves
                            > and bottom hem?
                            >
                            > Catharine
                            >
                            I personally do this after the time I made my daughter 4 new dresses
                            and then she hit a growth spurt and they were no longer wearable and
                            she had only worn them once. Now I add extra length in the hem to be
                            let down. I don't worry too much about the sleeves because most of
                            what we wear here in Trimaris is short sleeved anyway so I just make
                            them a little long the first time. I have found that the dresses last
                            a little longer this way.

                            Grainne mhic Neill
                          • sue_clemenger
                            ... then that the use of such a tuck would be appropriate on gowns at least from this era on? It seems to me that even if they weren t used for growth tucks
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 10, 2008
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                              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Catharine Decker <cdeckerwi@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > Thank you! This is very interesting. Would it be safe to conclude
                              then that the use of such a tuck would be appropriate on gowns at least
                              from this era on? It seems to me that even if they weren't used for
                              growth tucks per se, if they were used for decoration, then it would
                              still be acceptable. No?
                              >
                              > Catharine
                              >
                              Hi, Catharine!
                              I've got several images in a book on Sofonisba Anguissola (late
                              16th/early 17th c. painter), in which she's depicting children, and
                              IIRC, the skirts of the little girls distinctly show growth tucks. And
                              these are princesses of the Spanish court, in fancy clothing, so we're
                              definitely talking upper class.
                              --Maire
                            • sue_clemenger
                              ... be ... up ... Jehanne, I ve got pictures of substantial tucks in children s skirts in late 16th century Spain. So it s not just skipping from the 15th to
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 10, 2008
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                                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Joan Mielke Yost"
                                <joan.mielke.yost@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Would it be safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck would
                                be
                                > appropriate on gowns at least from this era on?
                                >
                                > Actually, no. As far as I have been able to learn, this particular
                                > feature of women's dress is specific to 15th c. Spain. I does show
                                up
                                > again later, but not until after the 17th century.
                                >
                                > Jehanne
                                >

                                Jehanne, I've got pictures of substantial tucks in children's skirts in
                                late 16th century Spain. So it's not just skipping from the 15th to
                                the 18th centuries and in adult clothing....
                                --Maire
                              • Hera Davidson
                                Hi I wouldn t necessarily say that the tucks on the infantas dresses are growth tucks, as these tucks also appear on the dresses of adult women, such as their
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 10, 2008
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                                  Hi
                                  I wouldn't necessarily say that the tucks on the infantas dresses are growth tucks, as these tucks also appear on the dresses of adult women, such as their stepmother's.
                                  Cheers
                                  Hera
                                • Rebecca Klingbeil
                                  ... For those who may be somewhat confused: Sofonisba Anguissola was one of 6 sisters, all painters, from Italy. Their father was extremely forward thinking
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Aug 10, 2008
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                                    --- sue_clemenger <sue_clemenger@...> wrote:

                                    > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Catharine
                                    > Decker <cdeckerwi@...>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Thank you! This is very interesting. Would it be
                                    > safe to conclude
                                    > then that the use of such a tuck would be
                                    > appropriate on gowns at least
                                    > from this era on? It seems to me that even if they
                                    > weren't used for
                                    > growth tucks per se, if they were used for
                                    > decoration, then it would
                                    > still be acceptable. No?
                                    > >
                                    > > Catharine
                                    > >
                                    > Hi, Catharine!
                                    > I've got several images in a book on Sofonisba
                                    > Anguissola (late
                                    > 16th/early 17th c. painter), in which she's
                                    > depicting children, and
                                    > IIRC, the skirts of the little girls distinctly show
                                    > growth tucks. And
                                    > these are princesses of the Spanish court, in fancy
                                    > clothing, so we're
                                    > definitely talking upper class.
                                    > --Maire
                                    >
                                    >

                                    For those who may be somewhat confused: Sofonisba
                                    Anguissola was one of 6 sisters, all painters, from
                                    Italy. Their father was extremely forward thinking for
                                    his time and gave them education and training not
                                    normally available to women, even of their class. She
                                    spent time as a lady-in-waiting in the Spanish court,
                                    and is best known for her portraiture, especially of
                                    her sisters and family. She was limited in her ability
                                    to take on commissions of religious paintings, etc.,
                                    because she was unable to freely study anatomy or the
                                    drawing of nudes. She eventually married an Italian
                                    (and later as a widow another Italian).

                                    So, if you look her up, you must look under Italian
                                    artists - even though she did a number of portraits of
                                    the ladies of the Spanish court.

                                    Leofwynn Marchaunt
                                  • Joan Mielke Yost
                                    ... in late 16th century Spain. So it s not just skipping from the 15th to ... Thank you for the information. I haven t had access to later Spanish images.
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Aug 11, 2008
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                                      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "sue_clemenger"
                                      <sue_clemenger@...> wrote:
                                      > Jehanne, I've got pictures of substantial tucks in children's skirts
                                      in late 16th century Spain. So it's not just skipping from the 15th to
                                      > the 18th centuries and in adult clothing....
                                      > --Maire
                                      >
                                      Thank you for the information. I haven't had access to later Spanish
                                      images.

                                      Fashion was ever fickle, as it is today. I wonder though, why this
                                      design detail does not show up in art from other regions as did other
                                      Spanish fashions.

                                      Jehanne
                                    • Ann Catelli
                                      Because the Spanish dressed funny. I.e., there was a distinct Spanish style for as far back as I ve seen Spanish clothing, not exactly like the core
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Aug 11, 2008
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                                        Because the Spanish dressed funny. I.e., there was a distinct Spanish style for as far back as I've seen Spanish clothing, not exactly like the core England/France/Lowlands areas that are fairly easy for an English-speaker to research.

                                        I'm sure those Spanish people who cared thought all through all the years that foreigners dressed funny, of course.

                                        Copying a style, as the English were so fond of during Elizabeth's reign, rarely means actually wearing the whole outfit as the source would.

                                        Ann in CT

                                        > Fashion was ever fickle, as it is today. I wonder though, why this
                                        > design detail does not show up in art from other regions as did other
                                        > Spanish fashions.
                                        >
                                        > Jehanne
                                      • Joan Mielke Yost
                                        ... Yes, they really did. Jehanne
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Aug 11, 2008
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                                          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Ann Catelli <elvestoorder@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Because the Spanish dressed funny.

                                          <Grin!>
                                          Yes, they really did.

                                          Jehanne
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