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When were "growth tucks" used in children's clothing?

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  • Catharine Decker
    Hi all. I m Catharine and I m entirely new to SCA and to this group. I ve always been interested, but am finally wanting to get involved in SCA. I can t
    Message 1 of 25 , Jul 18, 2008
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      Hi all. I'm Catharine and I'm entirely new to SCA and to this group. I've always been interested, but am finally wanting to get involved in SCA. I can't promise I'll be 100% authentic from the start, but I'm definitely wanting to work towards this. :-)

      My question at the moment is about "growth tucks" in children's clothing. From my (limited) experience with American Civil War reenactments, it was common to sew tucks into the hemlines and sleeves of children, so that as the child grew, the tucks could be taken out, thereby lengthening the sleeves/hemlines so the child could wear the garment longer.

      As I look at medieval and renaissance clothing information, I see mostly that children's garments were constructed similar to adults, just smaller and perhaps simpler. But I don't see any reference to growth tucks, which would be a tremendous practical advantage (seems to me both for the actual historic peoples and for the modern reenactor who doesn't want to replace a wardrobe yearly).

      Does anyone know about this?

      Thanks.

      Catharine
    • julian wilson
      ... I would like to make a shoulder bag for events but I haven t been able to find any images or other evidence that a women of my time period (1530-1550)would
      Message 2 of 25 , Jul 18, 2008
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        --- On Fri, 18/7/08, oisswafford <oisswafford@...> wrote:


        I would like to make a shoulder bag for events but I haven't been able
        to find any images or other evidence that a women of my time period
        (1530-1550)would have carried one. Can anyone point me towards
        references?


        COMMENT
        Greetings to all interested in this Thread -
        especially
        Gwenlliana
        One "period" shoulder bag which would have "spanned" several centuries use because of it's "utility" would have been the simple "Pilgrims' Scrip".
         
        Insulæ Draconis' [Drachenwald] West Dragonshire  has just hosted the very popular "Winchester Pilgrimage III", at the Ancient Almshouse & Hospital of St. Cross.  This Event included readings from the "Canterbury Tales"  in the ancient "Hundred Mens' Hall" to get us all "in the mood" on Friday evening;  - while those intending to walk the last part of the Pilgrims' Way beside the lovely River Itchen to Winchester Cathedral on the Saturday morning, -  all made "pilgrims' scrips" for themselves from materials supplied by Lady Genevieve La Felchière.
        If you haven't seen "scrips" previously, they are a simple cloth bag about 12" wide by 14/16" deep,with a flap top, and in the version researched for us by Lord Robert of Canterbury, they have a cloth strap about 1.75" broad.  
        Since pilgrimages to Chrstian sacred Sites continued throughout almost the whole of the SCA period in many of the countries of Western Europoe and the Medn. Basin, - a similar "scrip" will "pass muster" across the centuries and throughout most of Europe and the Eastern Meditteranean.
        Bear in mind, though, that since your "persona" is 16th Century English, you wouldn't have been going "on pilgrimage" [in England, anyway] after 1534, save for the short Reign of Mary Tudor. 
        So, Gwenlliana, if your persona is placed between 1530-1550, you'd have only done a pilgrimage from 1530 to 1533.
        However, it could be argued that similar "scrips" would have been made in other materials, [because it's a simple, useful design] - and had daily use by couriers, clerks, falconers, apothecaries, notaries, students, apprentices - in fact by any common, and middle-class folk who needed an inexpensive shoulder bag in which to carry "stuff". Folk of "gentle" birth wouldn't have carried such things at all, of course - they had body-servants to do that for them!
        Servus,
        Lord Matthew Baker
      • Zhara8
        The closest SCA comparison that I know of is the practice in most Arab regions to re-use the embroidered yokes and kameez fronts of garments, thus allowing
        Message 3 of 25 , Jul 18, 2008
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          The closest SCA comparison that I know of is the practice in most Arab regions to re-use the embroidered yokes and kameez fronts of garments, thus allowing repeated wearings of the most ornate (and therefore most valuable) part of the clothing.

          Regards,
          Z.






          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Catharine Decker <cdeckerwi@...>
          To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:56:48 PM
          Subject: [Authentic_SCA] When were "growth tucks" used in children's clothing?


          Hi all. I'm Catharine and I'm entirely new to SCA and to this group. I've always been interested, but am finally wanting to get involved in SCA. I can't promise I'll be 100% authentic from the start, but I'm definitely wanting to work towards this. :-)

          My question at the moment is about "growth tucks" in children's clothing. From my (limited) experience with American Civil War reenactments, it was common to sew tucks into the hemlines and sleeves of children, so that as the child grew, the tucks could be taken out, thereby lengthening the sleeves/hemlines so the child could wear the garment longer.

          As I look at medieval and renaissance clothing information, I see mostly that children's garments were constructed similar to adults, just smaller and perhaps simpler. But I don't see any reference to growth tucks, which would be a tremendous practical advantage (seems to me both for the actual historic peoples and for the modern reenactor who doesn't want to replace a wardrobe yearly).

          Does anyone know about this?

          Thanks.

          Catharine






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        • Sarah Natividad
          I don t have any evidence for or against growth tucks, but I have a lot of growing kids to garb (plus ALL their friends) and I ve noticed that if you cut them
          Message 4 of 25 , Jul 19, 2008
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            I don't have any evidence for or against growth tucks, but I have a
            lot of growing kids to garb (plus ALL their friends) and I've noticed
            that if you cut them wide enough, tunics will "fit" for quite a while
            longer than mundanely sized clothing. I put "fit" in scare quotes
            because you kinda have to relax your standards of what fits and what
            doesn't. A tunic that "fits" won't always be perfectly knee length
            (or ankle length). If it's too long you can "bag" it a bit at the waist.

            Example: my 8 year old has a tunic I made him a year ago. Mundanely
            he's been through a two size growth spurt in this one year, but the
            tunic still fits him well enough that I haven't had to replace it.
            (It's just about the only article of his clothing I haven't had to
            replace in the last year.)

            Obrigada,
            Lianor
          • Joan Mielke Yost
            My question at the moment is about growth tucks in children s clothing. From my (limited) experience with American Civil War reenactments, it was common to
            Message 5 of 25 , Jul 19, 2008
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              My question at the moment is about "growth tucks" in children's
              clothing. From my (limited) experience with American Civil War
              reenactments, it was common to sew tucks into the hemlines and
              sleeves of children,

              Catherine,

              There really aren't that many images of children to go on. Sarah
              Thursfeld makes that point using a rare illustration with a group of
              children. (Passover scene, c. 1320, northern Spain, from the Golden
              Haggadah in the British Library, in the Medieval Tailor's Assistant,
              p. 179) The children are waring T-tunics caught up at the waist, but
              which hang to only knee length. There is trim at the necklines, hems
              and the ends of sleeves. Some of thie children's sleeves are rolled
              up and some of them are obviously what we would consider "too
              short." They are all wearing black "tights"

              http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/results.asp?
              image=011929&imagex=22&searchnum=12

              If that link doesn't work, try this one, and type a search for
              haggadah. http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/index.asp

              Jehanne
            • kittencat3@aol.com
              There s evidence of growth tucks in children s clothing as far back as the Copts (there was a terrific presentation that mentioned this at Kalamazoo this
              Message 6 of 25 , Jul 19, 2008
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                There's evidence of growth tucks in children's clothing as far back as the
                Copts (there was a terrific presentation that mentioned this at Kalamazoo this
                year). There's also some evidence of adult clothing being cut down for
                children's wear.

                Sarah Davies



                **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for
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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • quokkaqueen
                There s a 16th century book bag that might be helpful to look at (it s Coptic, not English though.)
                Message 7 of 25 , Jul 20, 2008
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                  There's a 16th century book bag that might be helpful to look at (it's
                  Coptic, not English though.)
                  http://libweb5.princeton.edu/visual_materials/hb/cases/earlycodex/index.html

                  Although earlier (this article claims pre 13th century), book satchels
                  in Ireland are at least geographically closer:
                  http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/adsdata/arch-769-1/ahds/dissemination/pdf/vol12/12_070_082.pdf

                  As for images of women wearing satchels, page 14 of this google book
                  has a photo of a painting, with a women in the top right-hand corner.
                  http://books.google.com.au/books?id=FNhYbgeRKLwC
                  On page 15, there is a drawing by Lucas van Leyden which also shows a
                  pilgrim-woman with a scrip.

                  It isn't exactly what you were looking for, but hopefully it's better
                  than nothing.
                  ~Asfridhr

                  --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "oisswafford" <oisswafford@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > I would like to make a shoulder bag for events but I haven't been able
                  > to find any images or other evidence that a women of my time period
                  > (1530-1550)would have carried one. Can anyone point me towards
                  > references?
                  >
                  > Thank you,
                  > Gwenlliana
                  >
                • Karen
                  That style seems to be fairly consistent with illustrations of grown men s clothing in the Golden Haggadah, though:
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jul 20, 2008
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                    That style seems to be fairly consistent with illustrations of grown men's clothing in the Golden Haggadah, though:
                    http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/results.asp?image=011765
                    http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/results.asp?image=012179
                    So I'm not sure we can really say for sure that the fullness above the belt is specifically meant to allow for children's growth, since those men seem fairly grown-up to me. ;-) It seems fairly consistent with what we see on children in the early 14th century in general.

                    I've been collecting images of children's clothing at http://larsdatter.com/children.htm in case that's of use, but I don't remember any specific examples there that show distinct evidence of what you're looking for.

                    Karen
                  • Joan Mielke
                    Thanks Karen for posting such a wonderful resource. What I was thinking about the length of children s tunics was not so much that they were belted, but simply
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jul 21, 2008
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                      Thanks Karen for posting such a wonderful resource.

                      What I was thinking about the length of children's tunics was not so much
                      that they were belted, but simply that they were not full length.

                      Jehanne
                    • mary_m_haselbauer
                      I hadn t thought of it this way. I ve tried different ways of making my daughter s clothing growable but this hasn t always been graceful. I think in period
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jul 25, 2008
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                        I hadn't thought of it this way. I've tried different ways of making
                        my daughter's clothing growable but this hasn't always been graceful.
                        I think in period for day to day clothing a family might not think in
                        terms of each child having their own clothes. They'd have a box of
                        tunics and which ever kid they fit would get to wear them. Maybe for
                        a special occasion new clothing would be made for individual kids but
                        it would fit them then. I have no evidence for this as I'm just
                        trying to think in terms of people living closer together and having
                        larger families.

                        The surviving children's clothing that I know about do not have any
                        growth allowances built in. However, they are almost exclusively
                        burial items which biases the information.

                        Karen thank you for all the work you've done in assembing images.
                        Just last night I directed people to your site when I did a class
                        about period toys.

                        Cheers,
                        Slaine
                        B3R, Calontir
                      • oisswafford
                        ... wrote: Thank you all for your help on this. Gwenlliana.
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jul 30, 2008
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                          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "quokkaqueen"
                          <quokkaqueen@...> wrote:
                          Thank you all for your help on this.

                          Gwenlliana.
                        • Joan Mielke Yost
                          ... clothing... it was common to sew tucks into the hemlines and sleeves of children, so that as the child grew, the tucks could be taken out, thereby
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 3, 2008
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                            > My question at the moment is about "growth tucks" in children's
                            clothing... it was common to sew tucks into the hemlines and
                            sleeves of children, so that as the child grew, the tucks could be
                            taken out, thereby lengthening the sleeves/hemlines so the child
                            could wear the garment longer.

                            Catherine,
                            It took me a while to find this image on-line...This image shows a
                            mid-15th century Spanish overgown with a tuck in it that certainly
                            looks like a growth tuck. This feature is found in other Spanish
                            women's gowns around the same time, but I have never seen it
                            elsewhere. It seems to show up around the same time as the pre-
                            farthingale skirt with the bones sewn into the outer fabric.
                            However, in this dress, the purpose is clearly not to hold the skirt
                            out...

                            http://www.all-art.org/gothic_era/page14/martorell8.jpg

                            The woman in this altarpiece is a "foreigner," but the only variances
                            in her dress (i.e., differences from how normal women dressed) are
                            the vee neckline and possibly the way her head covering is wrapped.
                            Otherwise, the characteristics of her dress are found elsewhere in
                            Spanish art of the same time period.

                            Jehanne
                          • Catharine Decker
                            Thank you! This is very interesting. Would it be safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck would be appropriate on gowns at least from this era on?
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 3, 2008
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                              Thank you! This is very interesting. Would it be safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck would be appropriate on gowns at least from this era on? It seems to me that even if they weren't used for growth tucks per se, if they were used for decoration, then it would still be acceptable. No?

                              Catharine
                            • Rebecca Klingbeil
                              ... I suppose it also depends not only on time period but also on the age of the child. As I have been gathering and sorting images from SCA period (business
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 3, 2008
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                                --- Catharine Decker <cdeckerwi@...> wrote:

                                > Thank you! This is very interesting. Would it be
                                > safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck
                                > would be appropriate on gowns at least from this era
                                > on? It seems to me that even if they weren't used
                                > for growth tucks per se, if they were used for
                                > decoration, then it would still be acceptable. No?
                                >
                                > Catharine

                                I suppose it also depends not only on time period but
                                also on the age of the child. As I have been gathering
                                and sorting images from SCA period (business project),
                                I have noticed quite a number of images of children.
                                Not just the Child in Madonnas, though you can see a
                                variety of ways that very young children were dressed
                                that way. Usually they are on the edges of crowd
                                scenes and such, and they are more common then one
                                would think. Portraits are another matter - the
                                children in those seem dressed up in their best
                                finery.

                                At least for the early to middle of period, most
                                children seem to be dressed in unstructured
                                lose-fitting garments like t-tunics. Even when the
                                adults around them are wearing close fitting
                                coathardies and kirtles and such, children are wearing
                                loose tunics with simple belts, often with a slit in
                                front for freedom of movement. Even older children
                                seem to wear simpler versions of grown up clothing.
                                It's as if parents were practical and said 'We're not
                                going to put anything on you with a lot of labor
                                involved until you've stopped growing.' There are
                                exceptions, of course, but even when the clothes are
                                closefitting like adults, they seem simpler in nearly
                                all cases.

                                Examples:
                                A young child in a simple tunic with a slit, 13thc.:
                                http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=16490

                                An older boy [far right of painting] in a loose tunic
                                with belt and pouch and hood, 1312-1317:
                                http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=26880

                                Three boys of what we'd call 'grade school' age
                                perhaps, bottom left of picture, 1328-1330:
                                http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=23133

                                Boys climbing trees [back of painting], 1365-1368:
                                http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=21226

                                Man leading a toddler/preschooler away from the crowd
                                [bottom left], 1380 with an older child behind:
                                http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=21226


                                A woman holding a toddler who dressed for easy
                                clean-up, 1426-1427:
                                http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=24791

                                Child - perhaps girl but given the period and age
                                might be a boy - in the front of the crowd [center],
                                1426-1427:
                                http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=24793

                                Older boy/youth [far right of this detail of a
                                painting] 1437:
                                http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=21198

                                A whole group of children of different ages [bottom
                                right] 1447:
                                http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=24952

                                Child with his mother [left of painting] 1464-1467:
                                http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=21840

                                A number of young children, the oldest wearing
                                something that he certainly has a lot of growing room
                                in [center front, striped clothing] 1509:
                                http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=19681

                                I haven't gotten much into the 16th c. though. Perhaps
                                as clothes became more complicated and more, I don't
                                know, structured? - things changed. We'll see as I
                                progress through the artwork.

                                Leofwynn Marchaunt
                              • Joan Mielke Yost
                                Would it be safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck would be appropriate on gowns at least from this era on? Actually, no. As far as I have been
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 4, 2008
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                                  Would it be safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck would be
                                  appropriate on gowns at least from this era on?

                                  Actually, no. As far as I have been able to learn, this particular
                                  feature of women's dress is specific to 15th c. Spain. I does show up
                                  again later, but not until after the 17th century.

                                  Jehanne
                                • Catharine Decker
                                  Ah, OK. Thanks. What are your thoughts on a wide hem, to be let out to lengthen the sleeves and bottom hem? Catharine
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Aug 4, 2008
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                                    Ah, OK. Thanks.

                                    What are your thoughts on a wide hem, to be let out to lengthen the sleeves
                                    and bottom hem?

                                    Catharine
                                  • Carrie
                                    ... sleeves ... I personally do this after the time I made my daughter 4 new dresses and then she hit a growth spurt and they were no longer wearable and she
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Aug 5, 2008
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                                      > What are your thoughts on a wide hem, to be let out to lengthen the
                                      sleeves
                                      > and bottom hem?
                                      >
                                      > Catharine
                                      >
                                      I personally do this after the time I made my daughter 4 new dresses
                                      and then she hit a growth spurt and they were no longer wearable and
                                      she had only worn them once. Now I add extra length in the hem to be
                                      let down. I don't worry too much about the sleeves because most of
                                      what we wear here in Trimaris is short sleeved anyway so I just make
                                      them a little long the first time. I have found that the dresses last
                                      a little longer this way.

                                      Grainne mhic Neill
                                    • sue_clemenger
                                      ... then that the use of such a tuck would be appropriate on gowns at least from this era on? It seems to me that even if they weren t used for growth tucks
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Aug 10, 2008
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                                        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Catharine Decker <cdeckerwi@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Thank you! This is very interesting. Would it be safe to conclude
                                        then that the use of such a tuck would be appropriate on gowns at least
                                        from this era on? It seems to me that even if they weren't used for
                                        growth tucks per se, if they were used for decoration, then it would
                                        still be acceptable. No?
                                        >
                                        > Catharine
                                        >
                                        Hi, Catharine!
                                        I've got several images in a book on Sofonisba Anguissola (late
                                        16th/early 17th c. painter), in which she's depicting children, and
                                        IIRC, the skirts of the little girls distinctly show growth tucks. And
                                        these are princesses of the Spanish court, in fancy clothing, so we're
                                        definitely talking upper class.
                                        --Maire
                                      • sue_clemenger
                                        ... be ... up ... Jehanne, I ve got pictures of substantial tucks in children s skirts in late 16th century Spain. So it s not just skipping from the 15th to
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Aug 10, 2008
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                                          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Joan Mielke Yost"
                                          <joan.mielke.yost@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Would it be safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck would
                                          be
                                          > appropriate on gowns at least from this era on?
                                          >
                                          > Actually, no. As far as I have been able to learn, this particular
                                          > feature of women's dress is specific to 15th c. Spain. I does show
                                          up
                                          > again later, but not until after the 17th century.
                                          >
                                          > Jehanne
                                          >

                                          Jehanne, I've got pictures of substantial tucks in children's skirts in
                                          late 16th century Spain. So it's not just skipping from the 15th to
                                          the 18th centuries and in adult clothing....
                                          --Maire
                                        • Hera Davidson
                                          Hi I wouldn t necessarily say that the tucks on the infantas dresses are growth tucks, as these tucks also appear on the dresses of adult women, such as their
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Aug 10, 2008
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                                            Hi
                                            I wouldn't necessarily say that the tucks on the infantas dresses are growth tucks, as these tucks also appear on the dresses of adult women, such as their stepmother's.
                                            Cheers
                                            Hera
                                          • Rebecca Klingbeil
                                            ... For those who may be somewhat confused: Sofonisba Anguissola was one of 6 sisters, all painters, from Italy. Their father was extremely forward thinking
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Aug 10, 2008
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                                              --- sue_clemenger <sue_clemenger@...> wrote:

                                              > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Catharine
                                              > Decker <cdeckerwi@...>
                                              > wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Thank you! This is very interesting. Would it be
                                              > safe to conclude
                                              > then that the use of such a tuck would be
                                              > appropriate on gowns at least
                                              > from this era on? It seems to me that even if they
                                              > weren't used for
                                              > growth tucks per se, if they were used for
                                              > decoration, then it would
                                              > still be acceptable. No?
                                              > >
                                              > > Catharine
                                              > >
                                              > Hi, Catharine!
                                              > I've got several images in a book on Sofonisba
                                              > Anguissola (late
                                              > 16th/early 17th c. painter), in which she's
                                              > depicting children, and
                                              > IIRC, the skirts of the little girls distinctly show
                                              > growth tucks. And
                                              > these are princesses of the Spanish court, in fancy
                                              > clothing, so we're
                                              > definitely talking upper class.
                                              > --Maire
                                              >
                                              >

                                              For those who may be somewhat confused: Sofonisba
                                              Anguissola was one of 6 sisters, all painters, from
                                              Italy. Their father was extremely forward thinking for
                                              his time and gave them education and training not
                                              normally available to women, even of their class. She
                                              spent time as a lady-in-waiting in the Spanish court,
                                              and is best known for her portraiture, especially of
                                              her sisters and family. She was limited in her ability
                                              to take on commissions of religious paintings, etc.,
                                              because she was unable to freely study anatomy or the
                                              drawing of nudes. She eventually married an Italian
                                              (and later as a widow another Italian).

                                              So, if you look her up, you must look under Italian
                                              artists - even though she did a number of portraits of
                                              the ladies of the Spanish court.

                                              Leofwynn Marchaunt
                                            • Joan Mielke Yost
                                              ... in late 16th century Spain. So it s not just skipping from the 15th to ... Thank you for the information. I haven t had access to later Spanish images.
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Aug 11, 2008
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                                                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "sue_clemenger"
                                                <sue_clemenger@...> wrote:
                                                > Jehanne, I've got pictures of substantial tucks in children's skirts
                                                in late 16th century Spain. So it's not just skipping from the 15th to
                                                > the 18th centuries and in adult clothing....
                                                > --Maire
                                                >
                                                Thank you for the information. I haven't had access to later Spanish
                                                images.

                                                Fashion was ever fickle, as it is today. I wonder though, why this
                                                design detail does not show up in art from other regions as did other
                                                Spanish fashions.

                                                Jehanne
                                              • Ann Catelli
                                                Because the Spanish dressed funny. I.e., there was a distinct Spanish style for as far back as I ve seen Spanish clothing, not exactly like the core
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Aug 11, 2008
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                                                  Because the Spanish dressed funny. I.e., there was a distinct Spanish style for as far back as I've seen Spanish clothing, not exactly like the core England/France/Lowlands areas that are fairly easy for an English-speaker to research.

                                                  I'm sure those Spanish people who cared thought all through all the years that foreigners dressed funny, of course.

                                                  Copying a style, as the English were so fond of during Elizabeth's reign, rarely means actually wearing the whole outfit as the source would.

                                                  Ann in CT

                                                  > Fashion was ever fickle, as it is today. I wonder though, why this
                                                  > design detail does not show up in art from other regions as did other
                                                  > Spanish fashions.
                                                  >
                                                  > Jehanne
                                                • Joan Mielke Yost
                                                  ... Yes, they really did. Jehanne
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Aug 11, 2008
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                                                    --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Ann Catelli <elvestoorder@...>
                                                    wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Because the Spanish dressed funny.

                                                    <Grin!>
                                                    Yes, they really did.

                                                    Jehanne
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