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tudor shoulder bag

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  • oisswafford
    I would like to make a shoulder bag for events but I haven t been able to find any images or other evidence that a women of my time period (1530-1550)would
    Message 1 of 25 , Jul 18, 2008
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      I would like to make a shoulder bag for events but I haven't been able
      to find any images or other evidence that a women of my time period
      (1530-1550)would have carried one. Can anyone point me towards
      references?

      Thank you,
      Gwenlliana
    • Catharine Decker
      Hi all. I m Catharine and I m entirely new to SCA and to this group. I ve always been interested, but am finally wanting to get involved in SCA. I can t
      Message 2 of 25 , Jul 18, 2008
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        Hi all. I'm Catharine and I'm entirely new to SCA and to this group. I've always been interested, but am finally wanting to get involved in SCA. I can't promise I'll be 100% authentic from the start, but I'm definitely wanting to work towards this. :-)

        My question at the moment is about "growth tucks" in children's clothing. From my (limited) experience with American Civil War reenactments, it was common to sew tucks into the hemlines and sleeves of children, so that as the child grew, the tucks could be taken out, thereby lengthening the sleeves/hemlines so the child could wear the garment longer.

        As I look at medieval and renaissance clothing information, I see mostly that children's garments were constructed similar to adults, just smaller and perhaps simpler. But I don't see any reference to growth tucks, which would be a tremendous practical advantage (seems to me both for the actual historic peoples and for the modern reenactor who doesn't want to replace a wardrobe yearly).

        Does anyone know about this?

        Thanks.

        Catharine
      • julian wilson
        ... I would like to make a shoulder bag for events but I haven t been able to find any images or other evidence that a women of my time period (1530-1550)would
        Message 3 of 25 , Jul 18, 2008
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          --- On Fri, 18/7/08, oisswafford <oisswafford@...> wrote:


          I would like to make a shoulder bag for events but I haven't been able
          to find any images or other evidence that a women of my time period
          (1530-1550)would have carried one. Can anyone point me towards
          references?


          COMMENT
          Greetings to all interested in this Thread -
          especially
          Gwenlliana
          One "period" shoulder bag which would have "spanned" several centuries use because of it's "utility" would have been the simple "Pilgrims' Scrip".
           
          Insulæ Draconis' [Drachenwald] West Dragonshire  has just hosted the very popular "Winchester Pilgrimage III", at the Ancient Almshouse & Hospital of St. Cross.  This Event included readings from the "Canterbury Tales"  in the ancient "Hundred Mens' Hall" to get us all "in the mood" on Friday evening;  - while those intending to walk the last part of the Pilgrims' Way beside the lovely River Itchen to Winchester Cathedral on the Saturday morning, -  all made "pilgrims' scrips" for themselves from materials supplied by Lady Genevieve La Felchière.
          If you haven't seen "scrips" previously, they are a simple cloth bag about 12" wide by 14/16" deep,with a flap top, and in the version researched for us by Lord Robert of Canterbury, they have a cloth strap about 1.75" broad.  
          Since pilgrimages to Chrstian sacred Sites continued throughout almost the whole of the SCA period in many of the countries of Western Europoe and the Medn. Basin, - a similar "scrip" will "pass muster" across the centuries and throughout most of Europe and the Eastern Meditteranean.
          Bear in mind, though, that since your "persona" is 16th Century English, you wouldn't have been going "on pilgrimage" [in England, anyway] after 1534, save for the short Reign of Mary Tudor. 
          So, Gwenlliana, if your persona is placed between 1530-1550, you'd have only done a pilgrimage from 1530 to 1533.
          However, it could be argued that similar "scrips" would have been made in other materials, [because it's a simple, useful design] - and had daily use by couriers, clerks, falconers, apothecaries, notaries, students, apprentices - in fact by any common, and middle-class folk who needed an inexpensive shoulder bag in which to carry "stuff". Folk of "gentle" birth wouldn't have carried such things at all, of course - they had body-servants to do that for them!
          Servus,
          Lord Matthew Baker
        • Zhara8
          The closest SCA comparison that I know of is the practice in most Arab regions to re-use the embroidered yokes and kameez fronts of garments, thus allowing
          Message 4 of 25 , Jul 18, 2008
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            The closest SCA comparison that I know of is the practice in most Arab regions to re-use the embroidered yokes and kameez fronts of garments, thus allowing repeated wearings of the most ornate (and therefore most valuable) part of the clothing.

            Regards,
            Z.






            ----- Original Message ----
            From: Catharine Decker <cdeckerwi@...>
            To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:56:48 PM
            Subject: [Authentic_SCA] When were "growth tucks" used in children's clothing?


            Hi all. I'm Catharine and I'm entirely new to SCA and to this group. I've always been interested, but am finally wanting to get involved in SCA. I can't promise I'll be 100% authentic from the start, but I'm definitely wanting to work towards this. :-)

            My question at the moment is about "growth tucks" in children's clothing. From my (limited) experience with American Civil War reenactments, it was common to sew tucks into the hemlines and sleeves of children, so that as the child grew, the tucks could be taken out, thereby lengthening the sleeves/hemlines so the child could wear the garment longer.

            As I look at medieval and renaissance clothing information, I see mostly that children's garments were constructed similar to adults, just smaller and perhaps simpler. But I don't see any reference to growth tucks, which would be a tremendous practical advantage (seems to me both for the actual historic peoples and for the modern reenactor who doesn't want to replace a wardrobe yearly).

            Does anyone know about this?

            Thanks.

            Catharine






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Sarah Natividad
            I don t have any evidence for or against growth tucks, but I have a lot of growing kids to garb (plus ALL their friends) and I ve noticed that if you cut them
            Message 5 of 25 , Jul 19, 2008
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              I don't have any evidence for or against growth tucks, but I have a
              lot of growing kids to garb (plus ALL their friends) and I've noticed
              that if you cut them wide enough, tunics will "fit" for quite a while
              longer than mundanely sized clothing. I put "fit" in scare quotes
              because you kinda have to relax your standards of what fits and what
              doesn't. A tunic that "fits" won't always be perfectly knee length
              (or ankle length). If it's too long you can "bag" it a bit at the waist.

              Example: my 8 year old has a tunic I made him a year ago. Mundanely
              he's been through a two size growth spurt in this one year, but the
              tunic still fits him well enough that I haven't had to replace it.
              (It's just about the only article of his clothing I haven't had to
              replace in the last year.)

              Obrigada,
              Lianor
            • Joan Mielke Yost
              My question at the moment is about growth tucks in children s clothing. From my (limited) experience with American Civil War reenactments, it was common to
              Message 6 of 25 , Jul 19, 2008
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                My question at the moment is about "growth tucks" in children's
                clothing. From my (limited) experience with American Civil War
                reenactments, it was common to sew tucks into the hemlines and
                sleeves of children,

                Catherine,

                There really aren't that many images of children to go on. Sarah
                Thursfeld makes that point using a rare illustration with a group of
                children. (Passover scene, c. 1320, northern Spain, from the Golden
                Haggadah in the British Library, in the Medieval Tailor's Assistant,
                p. 179) The children are waring T-tunics caught up at the waist, but
                which hang to only knee length. There is trim at the necklines, hems
                and the ends of sleeves. Some of thie children's sleeves are rolled
                up and some of them are obviously what we would consider "too
                short." They are all wearing black "tights"

                http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/results.asp?
                image=011929&imagex=22&searchnum=12

                If that link doesn't work, try this one, and type a search for
                haggadah. http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/index.asp

                Jehanne
              • kittencat3@aol.com
                There s evidence of growth tucks in children s clothing as far back as the Copts (there was a terrific presentation that mentioned this at Kalamazoo this
                Message 7 of 25 , Jul 19, 2008
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                  There's evidence of growth tucks in children's clothing as far back as the
                  Copts (there was a terrific presentation that mentioned this at Kalamazoo this
                  year). There's also some evidence of adult clothing being cut down for
                  children's wear.

                  Sarah Davies



                  **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for
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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • quokkaqueen
                  There s a 16th century book bag that might be helpful to look at (it s Coptic, not English though.)
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jul 20, 2008
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                    There's a 16th century book bag that might be helpful to look at (it's
                    Coptic, not English though.)
                    http://libweb5.princeton.edu/visual_materials/hb/cases/earlycodex/index.html

                    Although earlier (this article claims pre 13th century), book satchels
                    in Ireland are at least geographically closer:
                    http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/adsdata/arch-769-1/ahds/dissemination/pdf/vol12/12_070_082.pdf

                    As for images of women wearing satchels, page 14 of this google book
                    has a photo of a painting, with a women in the top right-hand corner.
                    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=FNhYbgeRKLwC
                    On page 15, there is a drawing by Lucas van Leyden which also shows a
                    pilgrim-woman with a scrip.

                    It isn't exactly what you were looking for, but hopefully it's better
                    than nothing.
                    ~Asfridhr

                    --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "oisswafford" <oisswafford@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > I would like to make a shoulder bag for events but I haven't been able
                    > to find any images or other evidence that a women of my time period
                    > (1530-1550)would have carried one. Can anyone point me towards
                    > references?
                    >
                    > Thank you,
                    > Gwenlliana
                    >
                  • Karen
                    That style seems to be fairly consistent with illustrations of grown men s clothing in the Golden Haggadah, though:
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jul 20, 2008
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                      That style seems to be fairly consistent with illustrations of grown men's clothing in the Golden Haggadah, though:
                      http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/results.asp?image=011765
                      http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/results.asp?image=012179
                      So I'm not sure we can really say for sure that the fullness above the belt is specifically meant to allow for children's growth, since those men seem fairly grown-up to me. ;-) It seems fairly consistent with what we see on children in the early 14th century in general.

                      I've been collecting images of children's clothing at http://larsdatter.com/children.htm in case that's of use, but I don't remember any specific examples there that show distinct evidence of what you're looking for.

                      Karen
                    • Joan Mielke
                      Thanks Karen for posting such a wonderful resource. What I was thinking about the length of children s tunics was not so much that they were belted, but simply
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jul 21, 2008
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                        Thanks Karen for posting such a wonderful resource.

                        What I was thinking about the length of children's tunics was not so much
                        that they were belted, but simply that they were not full length.

                        Jehanne
                      • mary_m_haselbauer
                        I hadn t thought of it this way. I ve tried different ways of making my daughter s clothing growable but this hasn t always been graceful. I think in period
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jul 25, 2008
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                          I hadn't thought of it this way. I've tried different ways of making
                          my daughter's clothing growable but this hasn't always been graceful.
                          I think in period for day to day clothing a family might not think in
                          terms of each child having their own clothes. They'd have a box of
                          tunics and which ever kid they fit would get to wear them. Maybe for
                          a special occasion new clothing would be made for individual kids but
                          it would fit them then. I have no evidence for this as I'm just
                          trying to think in terms of people living closer together and having
                          larger families.

                          The surviving children's clothing that I know about do not have any
                          growth allowances built in. However, they are almost exclusively
                          burial items which biases the information.

                          Karen thank you for all the work you've done in assembing images.
                          Just last night I directed people to your site when I did a class
                          about period toys.

                          Cheers,
                          Slaine
                          B3R, Calontir
                        • oisswafford
                          ... wrote: Thank you all for your help on this. Gwenlliana.
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jul 30, 2008
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                            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "quokkaqueen"
                            <quokkaqueen@...> wrote:
                            Thank you all for your help on this.

                            Gwenlliana.
                          • Joan Mielke Yost
                            ... clothing... it was common to sew tucks into the hemlines and sleeves of children, so that as the child grew, the tucks could be taken out, thereby
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 3, 2008
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                              > My question at the moment is about "growth tucks" in children's
                              clothing... it was common to sew tucks into the hemlines and
                              sleeves of children, so that as the child grew, the tucks could be
                              taken out, thereby lengthening the sleeves/hemlines so the child
                              could wear the garment longer.

                              Catherine,
                              It took me a while to find this image on-line...This image shows a
                              mid-15th century Spanish overgown with a tuck in it that certainly
                              looks like a growth tuck. This feature is found in other Spanish
                              women's gowns around the same time, but I have never seen it
                              elsewhere. It seems to show up around the same time as the pre-
                              farthingale skirt with the bones sewn into the outer fabric.
                              However, in this dress, the purpose is clearly not to hold the skirt
                              out...

                              http://www.all-art.org/gothic_era/page14/martorell8.jpg

                              The woman in this altarpiece is a "foreigner," but the only variances
                              in her dress (i.e., differences from how normal women dressed) are
                              the vee neckline and possibly the way her head covering is wrapped.
                              Otherwise, the characteristics of her dress are found elsewhere in
                              Spanish art of the same time period.

                              Jehanne
                            • Catharine Decker
                              Thank you! This is very interesting. Would it be safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck would be appropriate on gowns at least from this era on?
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 3, 2008
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                                Thank you! This is very interesting. Would it be safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck would be appropriate on gowns at least from this era on? It seems to me that even if they weren't used for growth tucks per se, if they were used for decoration, then it would still be acceptable. No?

                                Catharine
                              • Rebecca Klingbeil
                                ... I suppose it also depends not only on time period but also on the age of the child. As I have been gathering and sorting images from SCA period (business
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 3, 2008
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                                  --- Catharine Decker <cdeckerwi@...> wrote:

                                  > Thank you! This is very interesting. Would it be
                                  > safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck
                                  > would be appropriate on gowns at least from this era
                                  > on? It seems to me that even if they weren't used
                                  > for growth tucks per se, if they were used for
                                  > decoration, then it would still be acceptable. No?
                                  >
                                  > Catharine

                                  I suppose it also depends not only on time period but
                                  also on the age of the child. As I have been gathering
                                  and sorting images from SCA period (business project),
                                  I have noticed quite a number of images of children.
                                  Not just the Child in Madonnas, though you can see a
                                  variety of ways that very young children were dressed
                                  that way. Usually they are on the edges of crowd
                                  scenes and such, and they are more common then one
                                  would think. Portraits are another matter - the
                                  children in those seem dressed up in their best
                                  finery.

                                  At least for the early to middle of period, most
                                  children seem to be dressed in unstructured
                                  lose-fitting garments like t-tunics. Even when the
                                  adults around them are wearing close fitting
                                  coathardies and kirtles and such, children are wearing
                                  loose tunics with simple belts, often with a slit in
                                  front for freedom of movement. Even older children
                                  seem to wear simpler versions of grown up clothing.
                                  It's as if parents were practical and said 'We're not
                                  going to put anything on you with a lot of labor
                                  involved until you've stopped growing.' There are
                                  exceptions, of course, but even when the clothes are
                                  closefitting like adults, they seem simpler in nearly
                                  all cases.

                                  Examples:
                                  A young child in a simple tunic with a slit, 13thc.:
                                  http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=16490

                                  An older boy [far right of painting] in a loose tunic
                                  with belt and pouch and hood, 1312-1317:
                                  http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=26880

                                  Three boys of what we'd call 'grade school' age
                                  perhaps, bottom left of picture, 1328-1330:
                                  http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=23133

                                  Boys climbing trees [back of painting], 1365-1368:
                                  http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=21226

                                  Man leading a toddler/preschooler away from the crowd
                                  [bottom left], 1380 with an older child behind:
                                  http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=21226


                                  A woman holding a toddler who dressed for easy
                                  clean-up, 1426-1427:
                                  http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=24791

                                  Child - perhaps girl but given the period and age
                                  might be a boy - in the front of the crowd [center],
                                  1426-1427:
                                  http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=24793

                                  Older boy/youth [far right of this detail of a
                                  painting] 1437:
                                  http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=21198

                                  A whole group of children of different ages [bottom
                                  right] 1447:
                                  http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=24952

                                  Child with his mother [left of painting] 1464-1467:
                                  http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=21840

                                  A number of young children, the oldest wearing
                                  something that he certainly has a lot of growing room
                                  in [center front, striped clothing] 1509:
                                  http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=19681

                                  I haven't gotten much into the 16th c. though. Perhaps
                                  as clothes became more complicated and more, I don't
                                  know, structured? - things changed. We'll see as I
                                  progress through the artwork.

                                  Leofwynn Marchaunt
                                • Joan Mielke Yost
                                  Would it be safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck would be appropriate on gowns at least from this era on? Actually, no. As far as I have been
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Aug 4, 2008
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                                    Would it be safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck would be
                                    appropriate on gowns at least from this era on?

                                    Actually, no. As far as I have been able to learn, this particular
                                    feature of women's dress is specific to 15th c. Spain. I does show up
                                    again later, but not until after the 17th century.

                                    Jehanne
                                  • Catharine Decker
                                    Ah, OK. Thanks. What are your thoughts on a wide hem, to be let out to lengthen the sleeves and bottom hem? Catharine
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Aug 4, 2008
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                                      Ah, OK. Thanks.

                                      What are your thoughts on a wide hem, to be let out to lengthen the sleeves
                                      and bottom hem?

                                      Catharine
                                    • Carrie
                                      ... sleeves ... I personally do this after the time I made my daughter 4 new dresses and then she hit a growth spurt and they were no longer wearable and she
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Aug 5, 2008
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                                        > What are your thoughts on a wide hem, to be let out to lengthen the
                                        sleeves
                                        > and bottom hem?
                                        >
                                        > Catharine
                                        >
                                        I personally do this after the time I made my daughter 4 new dresses
                                        and then she hit a growth spurt and they were no longer wearable and
                                        she had only worn them once. Now I add extra length in the hem to be
                                        let down. I don't worry too much about the sleeves because most of
                                        what we wear here in Trimaris is short sleeved anyway so I just make
                                        them a little long the first time. I have found that the dresses last
                                        a little longer this way.

                                        Grainne mhic Neill
                                      • sue_clemenger
                                        ... then that the use of such a tuck would be appropriate on gowns at least from this era on? It seems to me that even if they weren t used for growth tucks
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Aug 10, 2008
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                                          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Catharine Decker <cdeckerwi@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Thank you! This is very interesting. Would it be safe to conclude
                                          then that the use of such a tuck would be appropriate on gowns at least
                                          from this era on? It seems to me that even if they weren't used for
                                          growth tucks per se, if they were used for decoration, then it would
                                          still be acceptable. No?
                                          >
                                          > Catharine
                                          >
                                          Hi, Catharine!
                                          I've got several images in a book on Sofonisba Anguissola (late
                                          16th/early 17th c. painter), in which she's depicting children, and
                                          IIRC, the skirts of the little girls distinctly show growth tucks. And
                                          these are princesses of the Spanish court, in fancy clothing, so we're
                                          definitely talking upper class.
                                          --Maire
                                        • sue_clemenger
                                          ... be ... up ... Jehanne, I ve got pictures of substantial tucks in children s skirts in late 16th century Spain. So it s not just skipping from the 15th to
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Aug 10, 2008
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                                            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Joan Mielke Yost"
                                            <joan.mielke.yost@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Would it be safe to conclude then that the use of such a tuck would
                                            be
                                            > appropriate on gowns at least from this era on?
                                            >
                                            > Actually, no. As far as I have been able to learn, this particular
                                            > feature of women's dress is specific to 15th c. Spain. I does show
                                            up
                                            > again later, but not until after the 17th century.
                                            >
                                            > Jehanne
                                            >

                                            Jehanne, I've got pictures of substantial tucks in children's skirts in
                                            late 16th century Spain. So it's not just skipping from the 15th to
                                            the 18th centuries and in adult clothing....
                                            --Maire
                                          • Hera Davidson
                                            Hi I wouldn t necessarily say that the tucks on the infantas dresses are growth tucks, as these tucks also appear on the dresses of adult women, such as their
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Aug 10, 2008
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                                              Hi
                                              I wouldn't necessarily say that the tucks on the infantas dresses are growth tucks, as these tucks also appear on the dresses of adult women, such as their stepmother's.
                                              Cheers
                                              Hera
                                            • Rebecca Klingbeil
                                              ... For those who may be somewhat confused: Sofonisba Anguissola was one of 6 sisters, all painters, from Italy. Their father was extremely forward thinking
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Aug 10, 2008
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                                                --- sue_clemenger <sue_clemenger@...> wrote:

                                                > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Catharine
                                                > Decker <cdeckerwi@...>
                                                > wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Thank you! This is very interesting. Would it be
                                                > safe to conclude
                                                > then that the use of such a tuck would be
                                                > appropriate on gowns at least
                                                > from this era on? It seems to me that even if they
                                                > weren't used for
                                                > growth tucks per se, if they were used for
                                                > decoration, then it would
                                                > still be acceptable. No?
                                                > >
                                                > > Catharine
                                                > >
                                                > Hi, Catharine!
                                                > I've got several images in a book on Sofonisba
                                                > Anguissola (late
                                                > 16th/early 17th c. painter), in which she's
                                                > depicting children, and
                                                > IIRC, the skirts of the little girls distinctly show
                                                > growth tucks. And
                                                > these are princesses of the Spanish court, in fancy
                                                > clothing, so we're
                                                > definitely talking upper class.
                                                > --Maire
                                                >
                                                >

                                                For those who may be somewhat confused: Sofonisba
                                                Anguissola was one of 6 sisters, all painters, from
                                                Italy. Their father was extremely forward thinking for
                                                his time and gave them education and training not
                                                normally available to women, even of their class. She
                                                spent time as a lady-in-waiting in the Spanish court,
                                                and is best known for her portraiture, especially of
                                                her sisters and family. She was limited in her ability
                                                to take on commissions of religious paintings, etc.,
                                                because she was unable to freely study anatomy or the
                                                drawing of nudes. She eventually married an Italian
                                                (and later as a widow another Italian).

                                                So, if you look her up, you must look under Italian
                                                artists - even though she did a number of portraits of
                                                the ladies of the Spanish court.

                                                Leofwynn Marchaunt
                                              • Joan Mielke Yost
                                                ... in late 16th century Spain. So it s not just skipping from the 15th to ... Thank you for the information. I haven t had access to later Spanish images.
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Aug 11, 2008
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                                                  --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "sue_clemenger"
                                                  <sue_clemenger@...> wrote:
                                                  > Jehanne, I've got pictures of substantial tucks in children's skirts
                                                  in late 16th century Spain. So it's not just skipping from the 15th to
                                                  > the 18th centuries and in adult clothing....
                                                  > --Maire
                                                  >
                                                  Thank you for the information. I haven't had access to later Spanish
                                                  images.

                                                  Fashion was ever fickle, as it is today. I wonder though, why this
                                                  design detail does not show up in art from other regions as did other
                                                  Spanish fashions.

                                                  Jehanne
                                                • Ann Catelli
                                                  Because the Spanish dressed funny. I.e., there was a distinct Spanish style for as far back as I ve seen Spanish clothing, not exactly like the core
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Aug 11, 2008
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                                                    Because the Spanish dressed funny. I.e., there was a distinct Spanish style for as far back as I've seen Spanish clothing, not exactly like the core England/France/Lowlands areas that are fairly easy for an English-speaker to research.

                                                    I'm sure those Spanish people who cared thought all through all the years that foreigners dressed funny, of course.

                                                    Copying a style, as the English were so fond of during Elizabeth's reign, rarely means actually wearing the whole outfit as the source would.

                                                    Ann in CT

                                                    > Fashion was ever fickle, as it is today. I wonder though, why this
                                                    > design detail does not show up in art from other regions as did other
                                                    > Spanish fashions.
                                                    >
                                                    > Jehanne
                                                  • Joan Mielke Yost
                                                    ... Yes, they really did. Jehanne
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Aug 11, 2008
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Ann Catelli <elvestoorder@...>
                                                      wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > Because the Spanish dressed funny.

                                                      <Grin!>
                                                      Yes, they really did.

                                                      Jehanne
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