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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Looking for Houppelande Pattern advice

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  • Kareina Talvi Tytär
    ... I can t help you with the main question, but I can point out that early looms were quite wide--specifically the warp-weighted loom. However, by as
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 24, 2008
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      Milisandia verch Watkyn wrote:
      >[snip] Specifically, I was
      >under the impression that early looms didn't make fabric quite that
      >wide

      I can't help you with the main question, but I can point out that
      "early" looms were quite wide--specifically the warp-weighted
      loom. However, by as late-period as the houppelande, I think "they"
      had switched to the much narrower, heddle based looms. Some details
      on the topic of looms and fabric width available in Hoffmann's 1974
      book "The warp-weighted loom : studies in the history and technology
      of an ancient implement" published by Robin and Russ
      Handweavers. ISBN 8200080943.


      http://kareina.livejournal.com/
    • Elisabeth de Besancon
      ... If you go to the yahoo group aotc (what happened when the age of the cotehardie group got too much spam), there is a great article called Alternative
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 25, 2008
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        >
        > I have some lovely fabric that I would like to make into a houpe for
        > myself.

        If you go to the yahoo group "aotc" (what happened when the "age of
        the cotehardie" group got too much spam), there is a great article
        called "Alternative Houppelande Construction" in the files. I like
        Cynthia Virtue's theory, but I think this construction is more
        plausible for some times/places.

        The only extant houppelande that I know of (and I just found out
        about it recently) is in a church in Prague. There was a post about
        it on either this list or aotc in November, I think (it was shortly
        before our Yule Feast).

        I've made several houppelandes, and I've had to piece most of them to
        get them as long and as full as I wanted. Because of the way the
        fabric falls, you really have to be looking to see the piecing. I'm
        going to make the Arnolfini houppelande as soon as I process my wool,
        and I'll have to sew lengths together as my loom only allowed me to
        weave about 36" widths.

        Pax,
        Elisa
      • Carrie McGinnis
        Thank you very much to everyone! This has all been extremely helpful information. I did go to the Yahoo Groups site for both this list and aotc. I did a search
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 25, 2008
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          Thank you very much to everyone! This has all been extremely helpful
          information.

          I did go to the Yahoo Groups site for both this list and aotc. I did a
          search but was unable to find the exitant houppelande. I'll cross post
          to aotc and try searching for it, as well, though. Thanks for the tip!

          --
          YIS,

          Milisandia verch Watkyn
          ________________________________
          "God does not play dice with the universe: He plays an ineffable game
          of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of
          any of the other players [i.e. everybody], to being involved in an
          obscure and complex variant of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank
          cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the
          rules, and who smiles all the time."
          --Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens
        • Tiffany Brown
          ... I pondered over available fabric widths for a while, and decided my problem with period fabric width was that I was assuming there was one standard width.
          Message 4 of 7 , Jun 26, 2008
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            2008/6/25 Kareina Talvi Tytär <kareina@...>:
            > I can't help you with the main question, but I can point out that
            > "early" looms were quite wide--specifically the warp-weighted
            > loom. However, by as late-period as the houppelande, I think "they"
            > had switched to the much narrower, heddle based looms. Some details

            I pondered over available fabric widths for a while, and decided my
            problem with period fabric width was that I was assuming there was one
            standard width. But when I look in modern fabric stores there are
            115cm and 150cm fabrics, and then things like cotton lawn, silk
            embroideries and craft prints in 90cm, and a few fabrics in
            non-standard widths. And then in the furnishing fabrics sections
            there are 150cm and 240cm and a few things in between and occasionally
            something even wider.

            When I realised that there was no reason it wouldn't have been like
            that in period, things started to click. Different widths would have
            been common in different periods for different purposes and reasons.
            So certain widths were available as a standard cloth, but wider
            fabrics could occasionally be found, and were mostly used for
            furnishings (I've read that somewhere in an academic source, but I'm
            not sure where). So when you consider that wider cloth was available,
            you need to consider if it was a furnishing fabric, or if it was a
            rare wider fabric, which just like todya you might have had to
            compromise on colour and pattern in order to use. Me, and most of my
            friends would rather sew an extra piece together to use the really
            lovely fabric, than buy the ordinary fabric that is available in a
            wider width (and might cost more, if it's harder to weave). Also
            there were very complicated brocades (mostly silks) which tended to be
            narrower than normal because it was harder to weave these wider, and
            you could get a more consistent result with a single weaver working an
            arm width wide loom (or occasionally two workers working twice that
            width).

            For each period, I expect different widths would be the common widths
            of available fabric for standard fabrics, upholstery fabrics and fine
            brocades, and these widths would be strongly influenced by what type
            of loom was common (eg narrower early heddles vs warp weighted) , and
            also what fashions were common. (eg if they created a demand for a
            certain width of fabric). Also, loom technology or weaving traditions
            may differ in neighboring countries, and if the fashionable fabric is
            imported, it may be that that makes that kind of fabric a different
            common width from the local fabrics in their common width - eg
            imported silk dresses over local linen chemises.

            A lot of this is conjecture, but it helps me understand better the
            question I should be asking: "What type of width was common for this
            type of fabric in my period?", rather than how wide was possible in my
            period, and I hope it helps a few others. If you can see a flaw in my
            speculation/logic, or know of a good exception to the rule, I'd love
            to hear it. please discuss away.

            Teffania







            --
            . ___
            {o,o} The blog you are not looking for
            |)__) is definitely not at
            -"-"- http://teffania.blogspot.com
          • Lilinah
            This link to a picture of the extant houppelande was posted to the aotc list quite recently. http://www.kostym.cz/Anglicky/1_Originaly/01_Goticke/I_01_26.htm
            Message 5 of 7 , Jun 26, 2008
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              This link to a picture of the extant houppelande was posted to the
              aotc list quite recently.
              http://www.kostym.cz/Anglicky/1_Originaly/01_Goticke/I_01_26.htm
              I've been to the site before - they've got a nice selection of
              photos of all sorts of extant garments, but do not always have much
              info about them.
              --
              Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
              the persona formerly known as Anahita

              My LibraryThing
              http://www.librarything.com/catalog/lilinah
            • Heather Rose Jones
              ... Recently there s been a steady stream of publications on surviving medieval garments held at Prague Castle, including a number of garment types I haven t
              Message 6 of 7 , Jun 26, 2008
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                On Jun 26, 2008, at 11:09 AM, Lilinah wrote:

                > This link to a picture of the extant houppelande was posted to the
                > aotc list quite recently.
                > http://www.kostym.cz/Anglicky/1_Originaly/01_Goticke/I_01_26.htm
                > I've been to the site before - they've got a nice selection of
                > photos of all sorts of extant garments, but do not always have much
                > info about them.

                Recently there's been a steady stream of publications on surviving
                medieval garments held at Prague Castle, including a number of
                garment types I haven't seen surviving in Western Europe (that is,
                types that were worn in the west, but where no examples seem to have
                survived there). It's quite delightful. I keep thinking that my
                wish-I-could tour around Europe collecting information on surviving
                garments definitely needs to include Prague. (And, hey, I can still
                remember at least a dozen words of Czech.)

                Tangwystyl
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