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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Matching Frocks

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  • shandra@legendsofglory.com
    I m sorry, I didn t mean to send the thumbnail. Here is a full image: http://jessamynscloset.com/images/postspainimages/Anderson/a310.jpg ~Shandra
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 22, 2008
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      I'm sorry, I didn't mean to send the thumbnail. Here is a full image:
      http://jessamynscloset.com/images/postspainimages/Anderson/a310.jpg

      ~Shandra
    • Elvira Pedrosa
      I have looked at that painting 100 times and never noticed the matching outfits. Thank you. Elvira -- Doña Elvira Pedrosa [Non-text portions of this message
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 22, 2008
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        I have looked at that painting 100 times and never noticed the matching
        outfits. Thank you.
        Elvira
        --
        Doña Elvira Pedrosa


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • JL Badgley
        ... I m not sure I d say that is alike --not nearly in the SCA sense of it. The patterns are different--and look at King Herod s sleeves versus his wife s or
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 22, 2008
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          On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 10:23 PM, <shandra@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > I'm sorry, I didn't mean to send the thumbnail. Here is a full image:
          > http://jessamynscloset.com/images/postspainimages/Anderson/a310.jpg
          >
          > ~Shandra

          I'm not sure I'd say that is 'alike'--not nearly in the SCA sense of
          it. The patterns are different--and look at King Herod's sleeves
          versus his wife's or daughters.

          I think, rather, you are seeing expensive brocade being used for all
          of them, but not the same fabric. On top of that, the king has on a
          red houppelande or some such raiment that does not appear to match
          anything his wife or daughter are wearing. I'd wager the similarities
          can be seen simply because it is the same period, so the same types of
          fabrics are being used to display wealth and the garments 'fit' with
          each other much better than most SCA couples, who often have wildly
          divergent personas.

          -Edward

          In contrast, the SCAdian tradition often seems to be almost identical
          matching fabrics and devices.
        • Jessica Ackerman
          MODERATOR NOTE - As a courtesy to our many members who receive this list in digest form, we ask that you not top-post and that you delete any portion of the
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 22, 2008
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            MODERATOR NOTE - As a courtesy to our many members who receive this list in digest form, we ask that you not top-post and that you delete any portion of the previous message that does not require repetition. Thank you. Jehanne de Wodeford, Pacific Time Zone Moderator.

            MESSAGE ORDER REVERSED AND EDITED.

            From: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com]
            On Behalf Of JL Badgley
            Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 11:49 AM
            To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] Matching Frocks

            I think, rather, you are seeing expensive brocade being used for all
            of them, but not the same fabric. On top of that, the king has on a
            red houppelande or some such raiment that does not appear to match
            anything his wife or daughter are wearing. I'd wager the similarities
            can be seen simply because it is the same period, so the same types of
            fabrics are being used to display wealth and the garments 'fit' with
            each other much better than most SCA couples, who often have wildly
            divergent personas.

            -Edward


            I would respectfully disagree with your assessment. The brocade used for
            all the outfits is identical, if you look at the full sized version of the
            image (or in the book itself), you can see that the flowers on each of their
            upper right arms is the same, while different parts of the brocade have been
            used as different accents on each outfit, it is clearly the same brocade.



            The necklines and sleeves of the mother and daughter's dresses are identical
            (even the underdress/chemise is the same width black stripe), and the
            addition of the sleevelets and overgown to his dress (which has the same
            neckline trim as the women's), do not deter from the fact that they are
            meant to coordinate.



            Each outfit may have particular quirks, but one can definitely tell that
            these outfits were made to be worn by these 3 people at the same time to
            show that they are obviously together.



            While I would not put forth that this would be a case for identical outfits
            for a couple, coordinating outfits is definitely period. (As would
            identical outfits for mothers and daughters).



            Also, we need to define what "alike in the SCA sense" means. I'm sure each
            kingdom has its own definition; it makes it more difficult to discuss these
            types of things, when we're all coming from different kingdom cultures. (Yay
            for inter-kingdom anthropology).



            ~Shandra

            _____

            From: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com]
            On Behalf Of JL Badgley
            Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 11:49 AM
            To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] Matching Frocks


            I'm not sure I'd say that is 'alike'--not nearly in the SCA sense of
            it. The patterns are different--and look at King Herod's sleeves
            versus his wife's or daughters.

            I think, rather, you are seeing expensive brocade being used for all
            of them, but not the same fabric. On top of that, the king has on a
            red houppelande or some such raiment that does not appear to match
            anything his wife or daughter are wearing. I'd wager the similarities
            can be seen simply because it is the same period, so the same types of
            fabrics are being used to display wealth and the garments 'fit' with
            each other much better than most SCA couples, who often have wildly
            divergent personas.

            -Edward

            In contrast, the SCAdian tradition often seems to be almost identical
            matching fabrics and devices.





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Antonia Calvo
            ... Common, but by no means universal. ... For some times and places, yes. For others, not so much. My personal feeling is NICE King and Queen wear matching
            Message 5 of 22 , Apr 22, 2008
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              Melisende Fitzwalter wrote:

              >It appears to be an established tradition that Royal
              >Couples wear matching outfits at important events like
              >Coronation/stepping down and Crown Tourney if not all
              >the time.
              >
              >

              Common, but by no means universal.

              >I have not yet seen pictorial evidence of this (but
              >haven't been specifically looking). So I wondered if
              >this is a documentable sartorial tendency in period,
              >or whether its just a charming SCA tradition.
              >

              For some times and places, yes. For others, not so much.

              My personal feeling is

              NICE
              King and Queen wear matching outfits from a time and place where
              matching outfits are known to have existed.
              or
              K & Q wear non matching outfits from the same time/place.

              NOT QUITE AS NICE
              K & Q wear matching outfits from a time and place where matching outfits
              were not known.
              or
              K & Q wear outfits from different times/places (ie, each dresses as
              him/herself)

              EXTREMELY SPACK
              K & Q come from very disparate times and places and both want to stick
              with their own chosen persona, but instead of leaving it at that, they
              still have outfits that "match". For example, he's an Elizabethan
              nobleman and she's a 9th century Byzantine, but they make the outfits
              with conspicuously matching fabric and trim... you get the idea. Ugh.
              (I realise everyone doesn't agree with this, but I think it's
              unbearably, nastily twee.)


              --
              Antonia Calvo
              (formerly known as Adele de Maisieres)

              -----------------------------
              Habeo metrum - musicamque,
              hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
              -Georgeus Gershwinus
              -----------------------------
            • Antonia Calvo
              ... That s my idea of perfect matching. -- Antonia Calvo (formerly known as Adele de Maisieres) ... Habeo metrum - musicamque, hominem meam. Expectat alium
              Message 6 of 22 , Apr 22, 2008
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                shandra@... wrote:

                >I'm sorry, I didn't mean to send the thumbnail. Here is a full image:
                >http://jessamynscloset.com/images/postspainimages/Anderson/a310.jpg
                >
                >


                That's my idea of perfect matching.


                --
                Antonia Calvo
                (formerly known as Adele de Maisieres)

                -----------------------------
                Habeo metrum - musicamque,
                hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
                -Georgeus Gershwinus
                -----------------------------
              • Antonia Calvo
                ... Actually, the fact that they re alike but not slavishly so is what I like about it. ... See my other post on this subject. I ve tried to enumerate the
                Message 7 of 22 , Apr 22, 2008
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                  Jessica Ackerman wrote:

                  >Each outfit may have particular quirks, but one can definitely tell that
                  >these outfits were made to be worn by these 3 people at the same time to
                  >show that they are obviously together.
                  >
                  >

                  Actually, the fact that they're alike but not slavishly so is what I
                  like about it.


                  >Also, we need to define what "alike in the SCA sense" means. I'm sure each
                  >kingdom has its own definition; it makes it more difficult to discuss these
                  >types of things, when we're all coming from different kingdom cultures. (Yay
                  >for inter-kingdom anthropology).
                  >

                  See my other post on this subject. I've tried to enumerate the
                  matching/non-matching options I've seen.


                  --
                  Antonia Calvo
                  (formerly known as Adele de Maisieres)

                  -----------------------------
                  Habeo metrum - musicamque,
                  hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
                  -Georgeus Gershwinus
                  -----------------------------
                • Cynthia J Ley
                  ... Replying to someone, Shandra, I think: It makes a good deal of sense that a bolt of fabric could have been commissioned and used for everyone. The rest is
                  Message 8 of 22 , Apr 22, 2008
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                    > I would respectfully disagree with your assessment. The brocade
                    > used for
                    > all the outfits is identical, if you look at the full sized version
                    > of the
                    > image (or in the book itself), you can see that the flowers on each
                    > of their
                    > upper right arms is the same, while different parts of the brocade
                    > have been
                    > used as different accents on each outfit, it is clearly the same
                    > brocade.

                    Replying to someone, Shandra, I think:

                    It makes a good deal of sense that a bolt of fabric could have been
                    commissioned and used for everyone. The rest is up to the thriftiness of
                    the tailor--it would have been a bad economy to waste such a rich fabric;
                    odd cuts and scraps may account for the various uses of the brocade.

                    Arlys
                  • Rebecca Klingbeil
                    I went digging through some images to see what I could find. Don t know what any of this really means, but I thought I would toss them out for those who cared
                    Message 9 of 22 , Apr 22, 2008
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                      I went digging through some images to see what I could
                      find. Don't know what any of this really means, but I
                      thought I would toss them out for those who cared to
                      look.

                      First, the _Dance of Salome_ by Benozzo di Lese di
                      Sandro Gozzoli (1461-1462):
                      http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=24241

                      In it Herod and Herodias are wearing matching outfits
                      in a sense - but only in the fact that they are both
                      wearing red with white as an accent color. Please note
                      this is one of those paintings where more than one
                      scene in a story are all in the same painting.
                      Herodias is in the center back, receiving the
                      Baptist's head from Salome. Salome is then, in the
                      same outfit, toward center front dancing for Herod on
                      the right. The theory that the outfits are meant to be
                      matching in color is bolstered by the liveried men in
                      the right back wearing red and white tabards.

                      Somewhat more convincing is _The Marriage at Cana_ by
                      Gerard David (c. 1500):
                      http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=292
                      (whole painting)
                      http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=294
                      (detail #1)
                      http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=295
                      (detail #2)

                      In it the donor's family are wearing outfits that
                      match in color scheme: red and black with silver
                      embroidery. The husband is on the far left and the
                      wife and daughter on the far right, all kneeling. But
                      of course, they could just be matching because they
                      knew they were having their portraits painted, not
                      because they wore matching outfits any other time. Or
                      even because the artist just painted them that way.
                      Who knows?

                      A little out of period is _The Trinity Adored By The
                      Duke Of Mantua And His Family_ by Peter Paul Rubens
                      (c. 1604-1606):
                      http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=17172

                      In this case the duke (front lower left) and his wife
                      (front lower right) are clearly wearing outfits
                      intended to both convey their rank and to match.

                      Then there is the _Triptych of the Micault Family_ by
                      Jan Cornelisz Vermeyen. I don't have a date for the
                      picture but Vermeyen lived from 1500-1559, so it has
                      to be between those two dates.
                      http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=27948

                      The Micault family isn't as matchy-matchy as the duke
                      of Mantua, but notice that all his daughters (? or
                      whatever female relatives they be besides his wife) on
                      the right wing are all wearing matching dresses.
                      Granted the dresses are solid color but are clearly
                      meant to match the color and texture of the cloak that
                      their father wears on the left wing.

                      Two less convincing but earlier paintings are the
                      following. First _The Marriage of the Virgin_ by
                      Bernardo Daddi (1336-1340):
                      http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=22412
                      Note that the Virgin and St. Joseph are both wearing
                      blue with white (or is it gold?) trim. This would be a
                      bit more evidence for matching outfits if it weren't
                      for the fact that everyone in the picture seems to
                      have this trim, and without it, it's just that the
                      artist used the same shade of blue for both Mary and
                      Joseph.

                      Second (another painting of the same theme), _The
                      Marriage of Mary_ by Robert Campin (1428):
                      http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=22123
                      On the far right on the doorstep of the Church/Temple,
                      Mary and Joseph are being married. They, in contrast
                      to everyone else around them, are wearing somber brown
                      and black. It's almost as if the point was not that
                      they matched (though they do) but that they AREN'T all
                      gussied up like everyone around them is.

                      Anyway, I'm not necessarily tossing out opinions that
                      should be taken too strongly. I just wanted to see
                      what I could find in my image references, and this is
                      what I've found so far. Take them or leave them or
                      pick them apart, as you please.

                      Hope they are some help to someone and I will happily
                      post more if I find any.

                      Leofwynn Marchaunt
                    • JL Badgley
                      On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 12:21 AM, Jessica Ackerman ... I have to admit, taking a second look, it appears you are correct. I m not sure if it was just the small
                      Message 10 of 22 , Apr 22, 2008
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                        On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 12:21 AM, Jessica Ackerman
                        <shandra@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I would respectfully disagree with your assessment. The brocade used for
                        > all the outfits is identical, if you look at the full sized version of the
                        > image (or in the book itself), you can see that the flowers on each of
                        > their
                        > upper right arms is the same, while different parts of the brocade have
                        > been
                        > used as different accents on each outfit, it is clearly the same brocade.

                        I have to admit, taking a second look, it appears you are correct.
                        I'm not sure if it was just the small size I was looking at on my
                        previous monitor or what, but looking again I can more clearly pick
                        out the pattern and agree that it is the same fabric, and cut in the
                        same way for each. Good catch.


                        -E.
                      • Melisende Fitzwalter
                        Thank you for all these images, I agree with Antonia (?) with regards to the different types of matching that are acceptable or not. However what I took away
                        Message 11 of 22 , Apr 23, 2008
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                          Thank you for all these images,

                          I agree with Antonia (?) with regards to the different
                          types of "matching" that are acceptable or not.
                          However what I took away from these images you kindly
                          offered was that "matching" is a flexible term.

                          In some instances, the outfits clearly are exactly the
                          same fabric and intended to show this, but in other
                          instances it might be the same colour, but with enough
                          differences to make the two seem
                          the-same-only-different if you get my drift. In other
                          words it is common to mirror but not to slavishly copy
                          your husband's cote but with a longer skirt!

                          Melisende


                          __________________________________________________________
                          Sent from Yahoo! Mail.
                          A Smarter Email http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
                        • Chris Laning
                          ... Of course, another factor that comes into play is whether the people involved can afford to buy a whole lot of matching fabric at once. For Royalty, you d
                          Message 12 of 22 , Apr 23, 2008
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                            On Apr 22, 2008, at 4:24 PM, Cynthia J Ley wrote:
                            >
                            > It makes a good deal of sense that a bolt of fabric could have been
                            > commissioned and used for everyone. The rest is up to the
                            > thriftiness of
                            > the tailor--it would have been a bad economy to waste such a rich
                            > fabric;
                            > odd cuts and scraps may account for the various uses of the brocade.


                            Of course, another factor that comes into play is whether the people
                            involved can afford to buy a whole lot of matching fabric at once.

                            For Royalty, you'd expect this to be less of a problem. But if you're
                            talking about ordinary middle-class or upper-middle-class people, I'd
                            think it would be less likely. My impression is that for a well-to-do
                            merchant (for instance) investing in a couple of new outfits is
                            roughly on a par with someone today buying a new car -- not
                            impossibly costly, but not the sort of investment you make every month.

                            ____________________________________________________________

                            O Chris Laning <claning@...> - Davis, California
                            + http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com
                            ____________________________________________________________
                          • Emine Hatun al-Talabi bint Abdullah
                            EXTREMELY SPACK K & Q come from very disparate times and places and both want to stick with their own chosen persona, but instead of leaving it at that,
                            Message 13 of 22 , Apr 23, 2008
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                              <snip>
                              EXTREMELY SPACK
                              K & Q come from very disparate times and places and both want to stick
                              with their own chosen persona, but instead of leaving it at that, they
                              still have outfits that "match". For example, he's an Elizabethan
                              nobleman and she's a 9th century Byzantine, but they make the outfits
                              with conspicuously matching fabric and trim... you get the idea. Ugh.
                              (I realise everyone doesn't agree with this, but I think it's
                              unbearably, nastily twee.)
                              </snip>

                              So, in your opinion, Antonia, should the royals change their personae
                              to match during their reign? For example, if the King is 14th century
                              Japanese and the Queen is 16th century Ottoman, there is no
                              possibility they would have existed in period together. What would
                              you suggest in this case? I wouldn't think it fair for one or the
                              other of the Royals to have to change their persona just for their
                              reign when everyone knows them by the persona with which they normally
                              play.

                              Curiously,
                              Emine
                            • Karen J. Park
                              ... This one is just my conjecture, but I think it may be an example of matching/near matching. This is another portrait from Ruth M. Anderson s Hispanic
                              Message 14 of 22 , Apr 23, 2008
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                                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Melisende Fitzwalter
                                <melisende1380@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I have not yet seen pictorial evidence of this (but
                                > haven't been specifically looking). So I wondered if
                                > this is a documentable sartorial tendency in period,
                                > or whether its just a charming SCA tradition.
                                >
                                > Melisende
                                >


                                This one is just my conjecture, but I think it may be an example of
                                matching/near matching. This is another portrait from Ruth M.
                                Anderson's Hispanic Costuming that you can see on Jessamyn's Closet.

                                http://www.jessamynscloset.com/images/postspainimages/Anderson/a312.jp
                                g

                                I've tried to recreate the gown of the lady in the center of the
                                picture in the yellow/red. I've always thought that she "goes with"
                                the guy in the center back of the picture who is wearing a hat &
                                cloak, but you can see part of his yellow tunic trimmed in black,
                                seemingly in the same style as the red trim of the yellow lady.

                                Now, I could be totally off-base here as Spain was really into
                                stripes at that time. But, it just pleased my SCA-sensibilities.

                                Constanza Marina de Huelva
                                in the Outlands
                              • Greg Lindahl
                                ... It sounds to me like this conversation is veering away from authenticity to how the SCA plays or should play its game, and we all know that people have
                                Message 15 of 22 , Apr 23, 2008
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                                  > So, in your opinion, Antonia, should the royals change their personae
                                  > to match during their reign? For example, if the King is 14th century
                                  > Japanese and the Queen is 16th century Ottoman, there is no
                                  > possibility they would have existed in period together. What would
                                  > you suggest in this case? I wouldn't think it fair for one or the
                                  > other of the Royals to have to change their persona just for their
                                  > reign when everyone knows them by the persona with which they normally
                                  > play.

                                  It sounds to me like this conversation is veering away from
                                  authenticity to how the SCA plays or should play its game, and we all
                                  know that people have wildly different opinions about the latter.
                                  And this list is about the former.

                                  Cariadoc has an interesting article on the topic:

                                  http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/cariadoc/consistency.html

                                  -- Gregory
                                • Antonia Calvo
                                  ... I think there are several options: 1. _One_ of them changes and gets new clothes so that they now match for time and place (though not necessarily matching
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Apr 23, 2008
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                                    Emine Hatun al-Talabi bint Abdullah wrote:

                                    ><snip>
                                    >EXTREMELY SPACK
                                    >K & Q come from very disparate times and places and both want to stick
                                    >with their own chosen persona, but instead of leaving it at that, they
                                    >still have outfits that "match". For example, he's an Elizabethan
                                    >nobleman and she's a 9th century Byzantine, but they make the outfits
                                    >with conspicuously matching fabric and trim... you get the idea. Ugh.
                                    >(I realise everyone doesn't agree with this, but I think it's
                                    >unbearably, nastily twee.)
                                    ></snip>
                                    >
                                    >So, in your opinion, Antonia, should the royals change their personae
                                    >to match during their reign? For example, if the King is 14th century
                                    >Japanese and the Queen is 16th century Ottoman, there is no
                                    >possibility they would have existed in period together. What would
                                    >you suggest in this case? I wouldn't think it fair for one or the
                                    >other of the Royals to have to change their persona just for their
                                    >reign when everyone knows them by the persona with which they normally
                                    >play.
                                    >

                                    I think there are several options:
                                    1. _One_ of them changes and gets new clothes so that they now match for
                                    time and place (though not necessarily matching clothes)
                                    2. _Both_ of them change, ditto. (though not necessarily matching clothes)
                                    3. They each come up with at least one outfit to match the other's
                                    persona and wear compatible (though not necessarily) outfits.
                                    3. Neither changes-- they just stay in their own personas and forget
                                    matching outfits entirely.

                                    --
                                    Antonia di Benedetto Calvo

                                    -----------------------------
                                    Habeo metrum - musicamque,
                                    hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
                                    -Georgeus Gershwinus
                                    -----------------------------
                                  • Nastasiia Ivanova Medvedeva
                                    ... Ugh. ... for ... clothes) ... You forgot #4: Both stay their own persona, and wear garb suitable for their persona, *using the same color palette.* Tasha
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Apr 23, 2008
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                                      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Antonia Calvo <ladyadele@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Emine Hatun al-Talabi bint Abdullah wrote:
                                      >
                                      > ><snip>
                                      > >EXTREMELY SPACK
                                      > >K & Q come from very disparate times and places and both want to stick
                                      > >with their own chosen persona, but instead of leaving it at that, they
                                      > >still have outfits that "match". For example, he's an Elizabethan
                                      > >nobleman and she's a 9th century Byzantine, but they make the outfits
                                      > >with conspicuously matching fabric and trim... you get the idea.
                                      Ugh.
                                      > >(I realise everyone doesn't agree with this, but I think it's
                                      > >unbearably, nastily twee.)
                                      > ></snip>
                                      > >
                                      > >So, in your opinion, Antonia, should the royals change their personae
                                      > >to match during their reign? For example, if the King is 14th century
                                      > >Japanese and the Queen is 16th century Ottoman, there is no
                                      > >possibility they would have existed in period together. What would
                                      > >you suggest in this case? I wouldn't think it fair for one or the
                                      > >other of the Royals to have to change their persona just for their
                                      > >reign when everyone knows them by the persona with which they normally
                                      > >play.
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > I think there are several options:
                                      > 1. _One_ of them changes and gets new clothes so that they now match
                                      for
                                      > time and place (though not necessarily matching clothes)
                                      > 2. _Both_ of them change, ditto. (though not necessarily matching
                                      clothes)
                                      > 3. They each come up with at least one outfit to match the other's
                                      > persona and wear compatible (though not necessarily) outfits.
                                      > 3. Neither changes-- they just stay in their own personas and forget
                                      > matching outfits entirely.
                                      >
                                      > --
                                      > Antonia di Benedetto Calvo
                                      >
                                      >

                                      You forgot #4: Both stay their own persona, and wear garb suitable
                                      for their persona, *using the same color palette.*

                                      Tasha
                                    • Antonia Calvo
                                      ... That s the one I don t care for-- it s OK if it s subtle, I suppose. -- Antonia di Benedetto Calvo ... Habeo metrum - musicamque, hominem meam. Expectat
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Apr 23, 2008
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                                        Nastasiia Ivanova Medvedeva wrote:

                                        >>>So, in your opinion, Antonia, should the royals change their personae
                                        >>>to match during their reign?
                                        >>>
                                        >>>
                                        >>I think there are several options:
                                        >>1. _One_ of them changes and gets new clothes so that they now match
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >for
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>time and place (though not necessarily matching clothes)
                                        >>2. _Both_ of them change, ditto. (though not necessarily matching
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >clothes)
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>3. They each come up with at least one outfit to match the other's
                                        >>persona and wear compatible (though not necessarily) outfits.
                                        >>3. Neither changes-- they just stay in their own personas and forget
                                        >>matching outfits entirely.
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >You forgot #4: Both stay their own persona, and wear garb suitable
                                        >for their persona, *using the same color palette.*
                                        >
                                        >

                                        That's the one I don't care for-- it's OK if it's subtle, I suppose.

                                        --
                                        Antonia di Benedetto Calvo

                                        -----------------------------
                                        Habeo metrum - musicamque,
                                        hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
                                        -Georgeus Gershwinus
                                        -----------------------------
                                      • Ann Catelli
                                        In Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince , the royal rolls list buying the same color cloth for pretty much the whole court, down to quite lowly servants.
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Apr 23, 2008
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                                          In "Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince", the royal rolls list buying the same color cloth for pretty much the whole court, down to quite lowly servants. Quantities and qualities were best for the royal family, and went down as the social class did.

                                          Not just once, but several different years and/or holidays. And the colors weren't the same each time, either.

                                          Now, I don't actually have the book at hand, so look it up yourself for actual colors, some quantities, etc. I am confident it may be found there. :)

                                          Ann in CT


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