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Matching Frocks

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  • Melisende Fitzwalter
    Greetings, I have been wondering about something for a while and wondered if people on this list can shed some light. It appears to be an established tradition
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 22, 2008
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      Greetings,

      I have been wondering about something for a while and
      wondered if people on this list can shed some light.

      It appears to be an established tradition that Royal
      Couples wear matching outfits at important events like
      Coronation/stepping down and Crown Tourney if not all
      the time.

      I have not yet seen pictorial evidence of this (but
      haven't been specifically looking). So I wondered if
      this is a documentable sartorial tendency in period,
      or whether its just a charming SCA tradition.

      Melisende


      __________________________________________________________
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    • Kathryn
      SCA tradition-wise: Most times here in the Outlands the Crown wears complimentary garb and not necessarily matching. It is actually a rare thing that the
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 22, 2008
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        SCA tradition-wise:

        Most times here in the Outlands the Crown wears complimentary garb and not
        necessarily matching. It is actually a rare thing that the outfits match.
        Just my 2 cents.

        Kathryn
        Outlands (and currently Mistresss of the Robes for TRMs)

        ............. and as she says that she's remembering that it just so happens
        that TRMs garb for stepping down does match!! However the incoming Crown's
        garb will compliment and not match. Both ways same day!!

        **************************************************************************
      • shandra@legendsofglory.com
        From the Hispanic Costume Book by Anderson, there is an image of a couple (and daughter) all dressed alike. Here is a link to an online copy of the image:
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 22, 2008
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          From the Hispanic Costume Book by Anderson, there is an image of a couple
          (and daughter) all dressed alike. Here is a link to an online copy of the
          image:
          http://jessamynscloset.com/images/postspainimages/Anderson/a310small.jpg

          Info about the image:

          1470-1480
          Pedro García de Benabarre,Retable of St. John the Baptist

          Museum of Catalan Art

          ~Alexandra Vazquez de Granada
          (called Shandra)
        • shandra@legendsofglory.com
          I m sorry, I didn t mean to send the thumbnail. Here is a full image: http://jessamynscloset.com/images/postspainimages/Anderson/a310.jpg ~Shandra
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 22, 2008
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            I'm sorry, I didn't mean to send the thumbnail. Here is a full image:
            http://jessamynscloset.com/images/postspainimages/Anderson/a310.jpg

            ~Shandra
          • Elvira Pedrosa
            I have looked at that painting 100 times and never noticed the matching outfits. Thank you. Elvira -- Doña Elvira Pedrosa [Non-text portions of this message
            Message 5 of 22 , Apr 22, 2008
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              I have looked at that painting 100 times and never noticed the matching
              outfits. Thank you.
              Elvira
              --
              Doña Elvira Pedrosa


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • JL Badgley
              ... I m not sure I d say that is alike --not nearly in the SCA sense of it. The patterns are different--and look at King Herod s sleeves versus his wife s or
              Message 6 of 22 , Apr 22, 2008
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                On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 10:23 PM, <shandra@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > I'm sorry, I didn't mean to send the thumbnail. Here is a full image:
                > http://jessamynscloset.com/images/postspainimages/Anderson/a310.jpg
                >
                > ~Shandra

                I'm not sure I'd say that is 'alike'--not nearly in the SCA sense of
                it. The patterns are different--and look at King Herod's sleeves
                versus his wife's or daughters.

                I think, rather, you are seeing expensive brocade being used for all
                of them, but not the same fabric. On top of that, the king has on a
                red houppelande or some such raiment that does not appear to match
                anything his wife or daughter are wearing. I'd wager the similarities
                can be seen simply because it is the same period, so the same types of
                fabrics are being used to display wealth and the garments 'fit' with
                each other much better than most SCA couples, who often have wildly
                divergent personas.

                -Edward

                In contrast, the SCAdian tradition often seems to be almost identical
                matching fabrics and devices.
              • Jessica Ackerman
                MODERATOR NOTE - As a courtesy to our many members who receive this list in digest form, we ask that you not top-post and that you delete any portion of the
                Message 7 of 22 , Apr 22, 2008
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                  MODERATOR NOTE - As a courtesy to our many members who receive this list in digest form, we ask that you not top-post and that you delete any portion of the previous message that does not require repetition. Thank you. Jehanne de Wodeford, Pacific Time Zone Moderator.

                  MESSAGE ORDER REVERSED AND EDITED.

                  From: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com]
                  On Behalf Of JL Badgley
                  Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 11:49 AM
                  To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] Matching Frocks

                  I think, rather, you are seeing expensive brocade being used for all
                  of them, but not the same fabric. On top of that, the king has on a
                  red houppelande or some such raiment that does not appear to match
                  anything his wife or daughter are wearing. I'd wager the similarities
                  can be seen simply because it is the same period, so the same types of
                  fabrics are being used to display wealth and the garments 'fit' with
                  each other much better than most SCA couples, who often have wildly
                  divergent personas.

                  -Edward


                  I would respectfully disagree with your assessment. The brocade used for
                  all the outfits is identical, if you look at the full sized version of the
                  image (or in the book itself), you can see that the flowers on each of their
                  upper right arms is the same, while different parts of the brocade have been
                  used as different accents on each outfit, it is clearly the same brocade.



                  The necklines and sleeves of the mother and daughter's dresses are identical
                  (even the underdress/chemise is the same width black stripe), and the
                  addition of the sleevelets and overgown to his dress (which has the same
                  neckline trim as the women's), do not deter from the fact that they are
                  meant to coordinate.



                  Each outfit may have particular quirks, but one can definitely tell that
                  these outfits were made to be worn by these 3 people at the same time to
                  show that they are obviously together.



                  While I would not put forth that this would be a case for identical outfits
                  for a couple, coordinating outfits is definitely period. (As would
                  identical outfits for mothers and daughters).



                  Also, we need to define what "alike in the SCA sense" means. I'm sure each
                  kingdom has its own definition; it makes it more difficult to discuss these
                  types of things, when we're all coming from different kingdom cultures. (Yay
                  for inter-kingdom anthropology).



                  ~Shandra

                  _____

                  From: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com]
                  On Behalf Of JL Badgley
                  Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 11:49 AM
                  To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] Matching Frocks


                  I'm not sure I'd say that is 'alike'--not nearly in the SCA sense of
                  it. The patterns are different--and look at King Herod's sleeves
                  versus his wife's or daughters.

                  I think, rather, you are seeing expensive brocade being used for all
                  of them, but not the same fabric. On top of that, the king has on a
                  red houppelande or some such raiment that does not appear to match
                  anything his wife or daughter are wearing. I'd wager the similarities
                  can be seen simply because it is the same period, so the same types of
                  fabrics are being used to display wealth and the garments 'fit' with
                  each other much better than most SCA couples, who often have wildly
                  divergent personas.

                  -Edward

                  In contrast, the SCAdian tradition often seems to be almost identical
                  matching fabrics and devices.





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Antonia Calvo
                  ... Common, but by no means universal. ... For some times and places, yes. For others, not so much. My personal feeling is NICE King and Queen wear matching
                  Message 8 of 22 , Apr 22, 2008
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                    Melisende Fitzwalter wrote:

                    >It appears to be an established tradition that Royal
                    >Couples wear matching outfits at important events like
                    >Coronation/stepping down and Crown Tourney if not all
                    >the time.
                    >
                    >

                    Common, but by no means universal.

                    >I have not yet seen pictorial evidence of this (but
                    >haven't been specifically looking). So I wondered if
                    >this is a documentable sartorial tendency in period,
                    >or whether its just a charming SCA tradition.
                    >

                    For some times and places, yes. For others, not so much.

                    My personal feeling is

                    NICE
                    King and Queen wear matching outfits from a time and place where
                    matching outfits are known to have existed.
                    or
                    K & Q wear non matching outfits from the same time/place.

                    NOT QUITE AS NICE
                    K & Q wear matching outfits from a time and place where matching outfits
                    were not known.
                    or
                    K & Q wear outfits from different times/places (ie, each dresses as
                    him/herself)

                    EXTREMELY SPACK
                    K & Q come from very disparate times and places and both want to stick
                    with their own chosen persona, but instead of leaving it at that, they
                    still have outfits that "match". For example, he's an Elizabethan
                    nobleman and she's a 9th century Byzantine, but they make the outfits
                    with conspicuously matching fabric and trim... you get the idea. Ugh.
                    (I realise everyone doesn't agree with this, but I think it's
                    unbearably, nastily twee.)


                    --
                    Antonia Calvo
                    (formerly known as Adele de Maisieres)

                    -----------------------------
                    Habeo metrum - musicamque,
                    hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
                    -Georgeus Gershwinus
                    -----------------------------
                  • Antonia Calvo
                    ... That s my idea of perfect matching. -- Antonia Calvo (formerly known as Adele de Maisieres) ... Habeo metrum - musicamque, hominem meam. Expectat alium
                    Message 9 of 22 , Apr 22, 2008
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                      shandra@... wrote:

                      >I'm sorry, I didn't mean to send the thumbnail. Here is a full image:
                      >http://jessamynscloset.com/images/postspainimages/Anderson/a310.jpg
                      >
                      >


                      That's my idea of perfect matching.


                      --
                      Antonia Calvo
                      (formerly known as Adele de Maisieres)

                      -----------------------------
                      Habeo metrum - musicamque,
                      hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
                      -Georgeus Gershwinus
                      -----------------------------
                    • Antonia Calvo
                      ... Actually, the fact that they re alike but not slavishly so is what I like about it. ... See my other post on this subject. I ve tried to enumerate the
                      Message 10 of 22 , Apr 22, 2008
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                        Jessica Ackerman wrote:

                        >Each outfit may have particular quirks, but one can definitely tell that
                        >these outfits were made to be worn by these 3 people at the same time to
                        >show that they are obviously together.
                        >
                        >

                        Actually, the fact that they're alike but not slavishly so is what I
                        like about it.


                        >Also, we need to define what "alike in the SCA sense" means. I'm sure each
                        >kingdom has its own definition; it makes it more difficult to discuss these
                        >types of things, when we're all coming from different kingdom cultures. (Yay
                        >for inter-kingdom anthropology).
                        >

                        See my other post on this subject. I've tried to enumerate the
                        matching/non-matching options I've seen.


                        --
                        Antonia Calvo
                        (formerly known as Adele de Maisieres)

                        -----------------------------
                        Habeo metrum - musicamque,
                        hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
                        -Georgeus Gershwinus
                        -----------------------------
                      • Cynthia J Ley
                        ... Replying to someone, Shandra, I think: It makes a good deal of sense that a bolt of fabric could have been commissioned and used for everyone. The rest is
                        Message 11 of 22 , Apr 22, 2008
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                          > I would respectfully disagree with your assessment. The brocade
                          > used for
                          > all the outfits is identical, if you look at the full sized version
                          > of the
                          > image (or in the book itself), you can see that the flowers on each
                          > of their
                          > upper right arms is the same, while different parts of the brocade
                          > have been
                          > used as different accents on each outfit, it is clearly the same
                          > brocade.

                          Replying to someone, Shandra, I think:

                          It makes a good deal of sense that a bolt of fabric could have been
                          commissioned and used for everyone. The rest is up to the thriftiness of
                          the tailor--it would have been a bad economy to waste such a rich fabric;
                          odd cuts and scraps may account for the various uses of the brocade.

                          Arlys
                        • Rebecca Klingbeil
                          I went digging through some images to see what I could find. Don t know what any of this really means, but I thought I would toss them out for those who cared
                          Message 12 of 22 , Apr 22, 2008
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                            I went digging through some images to see what I could
                            find. Don't know what any of this really means, but I
                            thought I would toss them out for those who cared to
                            look.

                            First, the _Dance of Salome_ by Benozzo di Lese di
                            Sandro Gozzoli (1461-1462):
                            http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=24241

                            In it Herod and Herodias are wearing matching outfits
                            in a sense - but only in the fact that they are both
                            wearing red with white as an accent color. Please note
                            this is one of those paintings where more than one
                            scene in a story are all in the same painting.
                            Herodias is in the center back, receiving the
                            Baptist's head from Salome. Salome is then, in the
                            same outfit, toward center front dancing for Herod on
                            the right. The theory that the outfits are meant to be
                            matching in color is bolstered by the liveried men in
                            the right back wearing red and white tabards.

                            Somewhat more convincing is _The Marriage at Cana_ by
                            Gerard David (c. 1500):
                            http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=292
                            (whole painting)
                            http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=294
                            (detail #1)
                            http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=295
                            (detail #2)

                            In it the donor's family are wearing outfits that
                            match in color scheme: red and black with silver
                            embroidery. The husband is on the far left and the
                            wife and daughter on the far right, all kneeling. But
                            of course, they could just be matching because they
                            knew they were having their portraits painted, not
                            because they wore matching outfits any other time. Or
                            even because the artist just painted them that way.
                            Who knows?

                            A little out of period is _The Trinity Adored By The
                            Duke Of Mantua And His Family_ by Peter Paul Rubens
                            (c. 1604-1606):
                            http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=17172

                            In this case the duke (front lower left) and his wife
                            (front lower right) are clearly wearing outfits
                            intended to both convey their rank and to match.

                            Then there is the _Triptych of the Micault Family_ by
                            Jan Cornelisz Vermeyen. I don't have a date for the
                            picture but Vermeyen lived from 1500-1559, so it has
                            to be between those two dates.
                            http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=27948

                            The Micault family isn't as matchy-matchy as the duke
                            of Mantua, but notice that all his daughters (? or
                            whatever female relatives they be besides his wife) on
                            the right wing are all wearing matching dresses.
                            Granted the dresses are solid color but are clearly
                            meant to match the color and texture of the cloak that
                            their father wears on the left wing.

                            Two less convincing but earlier paintings are the
                            following. First _The Marriage of the Virgin_ by
                            Bernardo Daddi (1336-1340):
                            http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=22412
                            Note that the Virgin and St. Joseph are both wearing
                            blue with white (or is it gold?) trim. This would be a
                            bit more evidence for matching outfits if it weren't
                            for the fact that everyone in the picture seems to
                            have this trim, and without it, it's just that the
                            artist used the same shade of blue for both Mary and
                            Joseph.

                            Second (another painting of the same theme), _The
                            Marriage of Mary_ by Robert Campin (1428):
                            http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/image.asp?id=22123
                            On the far right on the doorstep of the Church/Temple,
                            Mary and Joseph are being married. They, in contrast
                            to everyone else around them, are wearing somber brown
                            and black. It's almost as if the point was not that
                            they matched (though they do) but that they AREN'T all
                            gussied up like everyone around them is.

                            Anyway, I'm not necessarily tossing out opinions that
                            should be taken too strongly. I just wanted to see
                            what I could find in my image references, and this is
                            what I've found so far. Take them or leave them or
                            pick them apart, as you please.

                            Hope they are some help to someone and I will happily
                            post more if I find any.

                            Leofwynn Marchaunt
                          • JL Badgley
                            On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 12:21 AM, Jessica Ackerman ... I have to admit, taking a second look, it appears you are correct. I m not sure if it was just the small
                            Message 13 of 22 , Apr 22, 2008
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                              On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 12:21 AM, Jessica Ackerman
                              <shandra@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I would respectfully disagree with your assessment. The brocade used for
                              > all the outfits is identical, if you look at the full sized version of the
                              > image (or in the book itself), you can see that the flowers on each of
                              > their
                              > upper right arms is the same, while different parts of the brocade have
                              > been
                              > used as different accents on each outfit, it is clearly the same brocade.

                              I have to admit, taking a second look, it appears you are correct.
                              I'm not sure if it was just the small size I was looking at on my
                              previous monitor or what, but looking again I can more clearly pick
                              out the pattern and agree that it is the same fabric, and cut in the
                              same way for each. Good catch.


                              -E.
                            • Melisende Fitzwalter
                              Thank you for all these images, I agree with Antonia (?) with regards to the different types of matching that are acceptable or not. However what I took away
                              Message 14 of 22 , Apr 23, 2008
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                                Thank you for all these images,

                                I agree with Antonia (?) with regards to the different
                                types of "matching" that are acceptable or not.
                                However what I took away from these images you kindly
                                offered was that "matching" is a flexible term.

                                In some instances, the outfits clearly are exactly the
                                same fabric and intended to show this, but in other
                                instances it might be the same colour, but with enough
                                differences to make the two seem
                                the-same-only-different if you get my drift. In other
                                words it is common to mirror but not to slavishly copy
                                your husband's cote but with a longer skirt!

                                Melisende


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                              • Chris Laning
                                ... Of course, another factor that comes into play is whether the people involved can afford to buy a whole lot of matching fabric at once. For Royalty, you d
                                Message 15 of 22 , Apr 23, 2008
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                                  On Apr 22, 2008, at 4:24 PM, Cynthia J Ley wrote:
                                  >
                                  > It makes a good deal of sense that a bolt of fabric could have been
                                  > commissioned and used for everyone. The rest is up to the
                                  > thriftiness of
                                  > the tailor--it would have been a bad economy to waste such a rich
                                  > fabric;
                                  > odd cuts and scraps may account for the various uses of the brocade.


                                  Of course, another factor that comes into play is whether the people
                                  involved can afford to buy a whole lot of matching fabric at once.

                                  For Royalty, you'd expect this to be less of a problem. But if you're
                                  talking about ordinary middle-class or upper-middle-class people, I'd
                                  think it would be less likely. My impression is that for a well-to-do
                                  merchant (for instance) investing in a couple of new outfits is
                                  roughly on a par with someone today buying a new car -- not
                                  impossibly costly, but not the sort of investment you make every month.

                                  ____________________________________________________________

                                  O Chris Laning <claning@...> - Davis, California
                                  + http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com
                                  ____________________________________________________________
                                • Emine Hatun al-Talabi bint Abdullah
                                  EXTREMELY SPACK K & Q come from very disparate times and places and both want to stick with their own chosen persona, but instead of leaving it at that,
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Apr 23, 2008
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                                    <snip>
                                    EXTREMELY SPACK
                                    K & Q come from very disparate times and places and both want to stick
                                    with their own chosen persona, but instead of leaving it at that, they
                                    still have outfits that "match". For example, he's an Elizabethan
                                    nobleman and she's a 9th century Byzantine, but they make the outfits
                                    with conspicuously matching fabric and trim... you get the idea. Ugh.
                                    (I realise everyone doesn't agree with this, but I think it's
                                    unbearably, nastily twee.)
                                    </snip>

                                    So, in your opinion, Antonia, should the royals change their personae
                                    to match during their reign? For example, if the King is 14th century
                                    Japanese and the Queen is 16th century Ottoman, there is no
                                    possibility they would have existed in period together. What would
                                    you suggest in this case? I wouldn't think it fair for one or the
                                    other of the Royals to have to change their persona just for their
                                    reign when everyone knows them by the persona with which they normally
                                    play.

                                    Curiously,
                                    Emine
                                  • Karen J. Park
                                    ... This one is just my conjecture, but I think it may be an example of matching/near matching. This is another portrait from Ruth M. Anderson s Hispanic
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Apr 23, 2008
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                                      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Melisende Fitzwalter
                                      <melisende1380@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I have not yet seen pictorial evidence of this (but
                                      > haven't been specifically looking). So I wondered if
                                      > this is a documentable sartorial tendency in period,
                                      > or whether its just a charming SCA tradition.
                                      >
                                      > Melisende
                                      >


                                      This one is just my conjecture, but I think it may be an example of
                                      matching/near matching. This is another portrait from Ruth M.
                                      Anderson's Hispanic Costuming that you can see on Jessamyn's Closet.

                                      http://www.jessamynscloset.com/images/postspainimages/Anderson/a312.jp
                                      g

                                      I've tried to recreate the gown of the lady in the center of the
                                      picture in the yellow/red. I've always thought that she "goes with"
                                      the guy in the center back of the picture who is wearing a hat &
                                      cloak, but you can see part of his yellow tunic trimmed in black,
                                      seemingly in the same style as the red trim of the yellow lady.

                                      Now, I could be totally off-base here as Spain was really into
                                      stripes at that time. But, it just pleased my SCA-sensibilities.

                                      Constanza Marina de Huelva
                                      in the Outlands
                                    • Greg Lindahl
                                      ... It sounds to me like this conversation is veering away from authenticity to how the SCA plays or should play its game, and we all know that people have
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Apr 23, 2008
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                                        > So, in your opinion, Antonia, should the royals change their personae
                                        > to match during their reign? For example, if the King is 14th century
                                        > Japanese and the Queen is 16th century Ottoman, there is no
                                        > possibility they would have existed in period together. What would
                                        > you suggest in this case? I wouldn't think it fair for one or the
                                        > other of the Royals to have to change their persona just for their
                                        > reign when everyone knows them by the persona with which they normally
                                        > play.

                                        It sounds to me like this conversation is veering away from
                                        authenticity to how the SCA plays or should play its game, and we all
                                        know that people have wildly different opinions about the latter.
                                        And this list is about the former.

                                        Cariadoc has an interesting article on the topic:

                                        http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/cariadoc/consistency.html

                                        -- Gregory
                                      • Antonia Calvo
                                        ... I think there are several options: 1. _One_ of them changes and gets new clothes so that they now match for time and place (though not necessarily matching
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Apr 23, 2008
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                                          Emine Hatun al-Talabi bint Abdullah wrote:

                                          ><snip>
                                          >EXTREMELY SPACK
                                          >K & Q come from very disparate times and places and both want to stick
                                          >with their own chosen persona, but instead of leaving it at that, they
                                          >still have outfits that "match". For example, he's an Elizabethan
                                          >nobleman and she's a 9th century Byzantine, but they make the outfits
                                          >with conspicuously matching fabric and trim... you get the idea. Ugh.
                                          >(I realise everyone doesn't agree with this, but I think it's
                                          >unbearably, nastily twee.)
                                          ></snip>
                                          >
                                          >So, in your opinion, Antonia, should the royals change their personae
                                          >to match during their reign? For example, if the King is 14th century
                                          >Japanese and the Queen is 16th century Ottoman, there is no
                                          >possibility they would have existed in period together. What would
                                          >you suggest in this case? I wouldn't think it fair for one or the
                                          >other of the Royals to have to change their persona just for their
                                          >reign when everyone knows them by the persona with which they normally
                                          >play.
                                          >

                                          I think there are several options:
                                          1. _One_ of them changes and gets new clothes so that they now match for
                                          time and place (though not necessarily matching clothes)
                                          2. _Both_ of them change, ditto. (though not necessarily matching clothes)
                                          3. They each come up with at least one outfit to match the other's
                                          persona and wear compatible (though not necessarily) outfits.
                                          3. Neither changes-- they just stay in their own personas and forget
                                          matching outfits entirely.

                                          --
                                          Antonia di Benedetto Calvo

                                          -----------------------------
                                          Habeo metrum - musicamque,
                                          hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
                                          -Georgeus Gershwinus
                                          -----------------------------
                                        • Nastasiia Ivanova Medvedeva
                                          ... Ugh. ... for ... clothes) ... You forgot #4: Both stay their own persona, and wear garb suitable for their persona, *using the same color palette.* Tasha
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Apr 23, 2008
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                                            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Antonia Calvo <ladyadele@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Emine Hatun al-Talabi bint Abdullah wrote:
                                            >
                                            > ><snip>
                                            > >EXTREMELY SPACK
                                            > >K & Q come from very disparate times and places and both want to stick
                                            > >with their own chosen persona, but instead of leaving it at that, they
                                            > >still have outfits that "match". For example, he's an Elizabethan
                                            > >nobleman and she's a 9th century Byzantine, but they make the outfits
                                            > >with conspicuously matching fabric and trim... you get the idea.
                                            Ugh.
                                            > >(I realise everyone doesn't agree with this, but I think it's
                                            > >unbearably, nastily twee.)
                                            > ></snip>
                                            > >
                                            > >So, in your opinion, Antonia, should the royals change their personae
                                            > >to match during their reign? For example, if the King is 14th century
                                            > >Japanese and the Queen is 16th century Ottoman, there is no
                                            > >possibility they would have existed in period together. What would
                                            > >you suggest in this case? I wouldn't think it fair for one or the
                                            > >other of the Royals to have to change their persona just for their
                                            > >reign when everyone knows them by the persona with which they normally
                                            > >play.
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > I think there are several options:
                                            > 1. _One_ of them changes and gets new clothes so that they now match
                                            for
                                            > time and place (though not necessarily matching clothes)
                                            > 2. _Both_ of them change, ditto. (though not necessarily matching
                                            clothes)
                                            > 3. They each come up with at least one outfit to match the other's
                                            > persona and wear compatible (though not necessarily) outfits.
                                            > 3. Neither changes-- they just stay in their own personas and forget
                                            > matching outfits entirely.
                                            >
                                            > --
                                            > Antonia di Benedetto Calvo
                                            >
                                            >

                                            You forgot #4: Both stay their own persona, and wear garb suitable
                                            for their persona, *using the same color palette.*

                                            Tasha
                                          • Antonia Calvo
                                            ... That s the one I don t care for-- it s OK if it s subtle, I suppose. -- Antonia di Benedetto Calvo ... Habeo metrum - musicamque, hominem meam. Expectat
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Apr 23, 2008
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                                              Nastasiia Ivanova Medvedeva wrote:

                                              >>>So, in your opinion, Antonia, should the royals change their personae
                                              >>>to match during their reign?
                                              >>>
                                              >>>
                                              >>I think there are several options:
                                              >>1. _One_ of them changes and gets new clothes so that they now match
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >for
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >>time and place (though not necessarily matching clothes)
                                              >>2. _Both_ of them change, ditto. (though not necessarily matching
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >clothes)
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >>3. They each come up with at least one outfit to match the other's
                                              >>persona and wear compatible (though not necessarily) outfits.
                                              >>3. Neither changes-- they just stay in their own personas and forget
                                              >>matching outfits entirely.
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >You forgot #4: Both stay their own persona, and wear garb suitable
                                              >for their persona, *using the same color palette.*
                                              >
                                              >

                                              That's the one I don't care for-- it's OK if it's subtle, I suppose.

                                              --
                                              Antonia di Benedetto Calvo

                                              -----------------------------
                                              Habeo metrum - musicamque,
                                              hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
                                              -Georgeus Gershwinus
                                              -----------------------------
                                            • Ann Catelli
                                              In Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince , the royal rolls list buying the same color cloth for pretty much the whole court, down to quite lowly servants.
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Apr 23, 2008
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                                                In "Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince", the royal rolls list buying the same color cloth for pretty much the whole court, down to quite lowly servants. Quantities and qualities were best for the royal family, and went down as the social class did.

                                                Not just once, but several different years and/or holidays. And the colors weren't the same each time, either.

                                                Now, I don't actually have the book at hand, so look it up yourself for actual colors, some quantities, etc. I am confident it may be found there. :)

                                                Ann in CT


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