- ... Hmm. Extant garment.... If you have a look through Arnold (Patterns of Fashion), specifically at Eleanora of Toledo s gown, you ll find it has only a fewMessage 1 of 6 , Apr 1, 2008View Source--- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Anora Marchaunt (Christa )"
>Hmm. Extant garment....
> I am looking for some help documenting box pleats. I have found several
> sources saying they are period but I am finding a lack of "proof" or
> how they have come to this point. I've been trying to find an extant
> garment showing box pleats but I'm comming up short... Any one have any
If you have a look through Arnold (Patterns of Fashion), specifically
at Eleanora of Toledo's gown, you'll find it has only a few knife
pleats. (I know: not box.) If you're perusing that volume, you might
also double-check the men's trunk hose or pluderhose. I know some of
those were paned, but they were lined and *something* had to be done
with that fullness of the lining.
*How* they came to that point of box pleating, I could only speculate.
But there are some paintings which seem to depict box pleats on the
skirts of gowns.
These are from Bella Lucia da Verona's "Realm of Venus" site. Some
are clear, and I would say conclusive; others, arguable only as
"possibly" box pleated:
(This is an allegorical painting, which might make it unacceptable to
you as documentation or evidence.)
(Sleeve head/cap appears to be either box-pleated, or reverse
box-pleated into the armscye, and again to the lower sleeve. Skirt
*appears* to have been pleated---box or stacked box---rather than
cartridge pleated, but we may have to content ourselves with the sleeve.)
(possibly box pleats; stacked box pleats; or a combination of box
pleats and some cartridge pleating. My own feeling is that these are
stacked box pleats.)
(skirt appears to have been pleated with the pleats' edges facing
front and rear, in pairs)
(maybe, maybe not; not cartridge-pleated, however)
(The skirt appears to have been box-pleated, and the outer surface of
the pleat eased to the waistline of the bodice.)
(Not definite, but either knife-pleats or box pleats)
(Reasonably certain about this one.)
From Jen Thompson's "Festive Attyre" site:
(I'm not one-hundred percent certain, but pretty sure: look very
closely between the crook of her left elbow and the edge of her apron.)
(Pattern of light and shadow on the folds of the skirt suggest
From Mistress Oonagh O'Neill's web site:
(Scroll down to the middle of the page and find four portraits
clustered together: the first row, left side: Portrait of a Young
Woman by Beccaruzzi. This, to me, is *very* clear.)
I know you're looking for extant garments, but I hope this will be
some little help, at least.
Yseult the Gentle
- Anora, I don t know of an extant garment, but I can point you toward a painting or two... Try The Mass of Bolsena (aka The Miracle of Bolsena) by Raphael inMessage 2 of 6 , Apr 1, 2008View SourceAnora,
I don't know of an extant garment, but I can point you toward a painting or two... Try The Mass of Bolsena (aka The Miracle of Bolsena) by Raphael in the Stanza di Eliodoro in the Vatican. Another is The Expulsion of Heliodoros from the Temple, also by Raphael, same location. The M. of B. depicts the Swiss Guard in the lower right corner wearing pleated bases, the E. of H. depicts the Pope and his bearers (one of which is the artist himself) wearing almost identical pleated bases, but standing. I hope this helps, a little.
You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost.
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- Anora, when and where are you trying to document them for? Are you just wanting to show they were used before 1600, or are you wanting to document using themMessage 3 of 6 , Apr 3, 2008View SourceAnora, when and where are you trying to document them for? Are you
just wanting to show they were used before 1600, or are you wanting to
document using them for something?
- well I am hoping for around 1530 tudor england but I would settle for before 1600.... Anora Sable, in pile a rose slipped and leaved argent and a feather Or.Message 4 of 6 , Apr 4, 2008View Sourcewell I am hoping for around 1530 tudor england but I would settle for before 1600....
Sable, in pile a rose slipped and leaved argent and a feather Or.
Ita erat quando hic adveni. (it was that way when I got here)
Check out my Blogs
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- ... for before 1600.... ... Sorry for the delay, Yahoo locked me in a loop of insanity when ever I tried logging in;)Message 5 of 6 , Jun 24, 2008View Source--- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, anorathepain@... wrote:
>for before 1600....
> well I am hoping for around 1530 tudor england but I would settle
>Sorry for the delay, Yahoo locked me in a loop of insanity when ever
I tried logging in;)
Nice clear sketc with what we would now call box pleats but really
didn't have much of a name in period. Even the Victorians called them
From the same series this also appears to have box pleats.
There really isn't anything special about a box pleat. Once you take
a fold of fabric you can stack them, reverse them, make them narrow
make them wider and overlap.... And given that the Eleanora di Toledo
gown very definitely shows pleats angled towards the back- in fact
there is a "reverse box" pleat right in the centre back there... well
it then only comes down to a question of fashion over possibility.
These pleats seem more common in Italian and Swiss styles.
I would though recommend shaping skirts as well as pleating them. All
the skirts prior to 1600 (and most beyond) in PoF are gored, as are
all the skirts in Alcega (except the half circle underskirts- still
they aren't tubes).