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Re: table carpet

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  • Cynthia J Ley
    Here s an excerpt from my Ithra class lecture Survey of Needlework: One of the more curious home furnishings to arise during the Tudor erea was that of the
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 3, 2008
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      Here's an excerpt from my Ithra class lecture Survey of Needlework:

      "One of the more curious home furnishings to arise during the Tudor erea
      was that of the table carpet. Cardinal Wolsey may have started the
      fashion of importing oriental rugs from Turkey and its environs. Because
      these rugs--which were never used on floors, as floors were typically
      strewn with rushes--were so costly, it was only natural that people
      sought ways to create the effect without the expense. The reader will
      find references to both Turkish carpets and Turkey carpets. These are not
      the same thing. The latter were produced domestically in England. Turkish
      carpets are knotted; Turkey carpets are made in such a way as to imitate
      this effect. They are created by using back stitches with raised loops in
      between. The loops could be left as is, or clipped to form a pile as
      found in a carpet. Many table carpets were also done in tent stitch,
      cross stitch, or long arm cross stitch, also tent seems to dominate
      surviving works. Tent stitch--also called half cross, needlepoint, or
      tapestry stitch--was used to imitate tapestry using canvas or linen as a
      ground fabric. It uses a slanting stitch, and came in three accepted
      sizes--petit point, which uses tiny stitches; demi-point, which uses
      medium; and gros point, which uses large stitches. This was made easier
      by using evenweave linens or canvases as grounds. During the medieval
      period, tent stitch was also known as opus pulvinarium or cushion work."

      Arlys
    • Amy Heilveil
      Arlys, Could you provide a reference for the information? I d love to read more about Turkey carpets and the like and your information sounds like it comes
      Message 2 of 11 , Mar 3, 2008
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        Arlys,

        Could you provide a reference for the information? I'd love to read
        more about Turkey carpets and the like and your information sounds
        like it comes from a source that would be very interesting indeed!

        Smiles,
        Despina de la new butterfly to chase
      • Cynthia J Ley
        It s from a bunch of different sources--I ll try to hunt them down after work today. :-) Arlys On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 12:17:42 -0500 Amy Heilveil
        Message 3 of 11 , Mar 3, 2008
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          It's from a bunch of different sources--I'll try to hunt them down after
          work today. :-)

          Arlys

          On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 12:17:42 -0500 "Amy Heilveil" <amyheilveil@...>
          writes:
          > Arlys,
          >
          > Could you provide a reference for the information? I'd love to read
          > more about Turkey carpets and the like and your information sounds
          > like it comes from a source that would be very interesting indeed!
          >
          > Smiles,
          > Despina de la new butterfly to chase
        • Kammy
          I have a question dealing with table carpets, how big were they? Did they just fit the top of the table, or did they hang over the sides like table cloths?
          Message 4 of 11 , Mar 3, 2008
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            I have a question dealing with table carpets, how big were they? Did they
            just fit the top of the table, or did they hang over the sides like table
            cloths?

            Also, what types of designs were used? Were they geometric designs? Or the
            floral types that we think of in Turkish carpets today? Would it have been
            feasible for a Scottish household to have table carpets that were panels of
            knotwork?

            Any help or pointers to books would be helpful.

            In Service to the Dream;

            Anne Cameron

            . . . when are you going to understand that being normal is not a virtue, it
            rather denotes a lack of courage. -- Aunt Franny, Practical Magic
          • Kareina Talvi Tytär
            ... This exchange is a beautiful example of why it is helpful to cite one s sources within the text of whatever one is writing, particularly something like
            Message 5 of 11 , Mar 3, 2008
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              >Despina de la new butterfly to chase wrote:
              > > Could you provide a reference for the information? I'd love to read
              > > more about Turkey carpets and the like and your information sounds
              > > like it comes from a source that would be very interesting indeed!

              and Arlys replied:

              >It's from a bunch of different sources--I'll try to hunt them down after
              >work today. :-)

              This exchange is a beautiful example of why it is helpful to cite
              one's sources within the text of whatever one is writing,
              particularly something like notes for a class one is
              teaching! Sooner or later, someone *will* ask you where you found a
              piece of information. If you've got a habit of either using
              scientific notation and putting a parenthetical note right next to
              each fact such as: (Jones, 2001) or using one of the many other forms
              of citation, such as a footnote or endnote pointing to the source
              (which is listed in a bibliography showing useful details such as
              author, date, title, publisher, and anything else we'd need to find a
              copy), then when someone wants to know they can just go look it up
              for themselves, *and* you won't have to remember which bit came from
              where! Sure, it is a tiny bit more work at the time to link every
              fact with a source (or multiple sources!), but it saves much effort
              later when you want to go back and look at the source again!

              --Kareina, not picking on Arlys, but offering general advice to those
              who are new to the combination of research and writing it down to
              share with others, since in a list this size, there will be some!
            • Cynthia J Ley
              The Bradford shows various hunting and fishing scenes, with a pretty architectual rail across the top and bottom edges. Check under Victoria and Albert Museum,
              Message 6 of 11 , Mar 3, 2008
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                The Bradford shows various hunting and fishing scenes, with a pretty
                architectual rail across the top and bottom edges. Check under Victoria
                and Albert Museum, images, catalog #T.31-1914. The V&A is also pretty
                good about giving dimensions. This particular piece has a marked slant to
                it, probably generated by the fact that it's worked entirely in tent
                stitch, which is slanted.

                It's my general impression that they were placed on tabletops with no
                overhanging bits. They were an exercise in status, and what good are
                status symbols if folks can't ooo and ahh over them? 8-)

                Arlys (I know, dig up those sources already!) ;-)

                On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 14:47:39 -0700 "Kammy" <klchinnock@...>
                writes:
                > I have a question dealing with table carpets, how big were they? Did
                > they
                > just fit the top of the table, or did they hang over the sides like
                > table
                > cloths?
                >
                > Also, what types of designs were used? Were they geometric designs?
                > Or the
                > floral types that we think of in Turkish carpets today? Would it
                > have been
                > feasible for a Scottish household to have table carpets that were
                > panels of
                > knotwork?
                >
                > Any help or pointers to books would be helpful.
                >
                > In Service to the Dream;
                >
                > Anne Cameron
                >
                > . . . when are you going to understand that being normal is not a
                > virtue, it
                > rather denotes a lack of courage. -- Aunt Franny, Practical Magic
                >
                >
                >
              • Katherine Throckmorton
                ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                Message 7 of 11 , Mar 3, 2008
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                  On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 5:10 PM, Cynthia J Ley <cley@...> wrote:

                  > The Bradford shows various hunting and fishing scenes, with a pretty
                  > architectual rail across the top and bottom edges. Check under Victoria
                  > and Albert Museum, images, catalog #T.31-1914. The V&A is also pretty
                  > good about giving dimensions. This particular piece has a marked slant to
                  > it, probably generated by the fact that it's worked entirely in tent
                  > stitch, which is slanted.
                  >
                  > It's my general impression that they were placed on tabletops with no
                  > overhanging bits. They were an exercise in status, and what good are
                  > status symbols if folks can't ooo and ahh over them? 8-)
                  >
                  > Arlys (I know, dig up those sources already!) ;-)
                  >
                  > On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 14:47:39 -0700 "Kammy" <klchinnock@...<klchinnock%40comcast.net>
                  > >
                  > writes:
                  >
                  > > I have a question dealing with table carpets, how big were they? Did
                  > > they
                  > > just fit the top of the table, or did they hang over the sides like
                  > > table
                  > > cloths?
                  > >
                  > > Also, what types of designs were used? Were they geometric designs?
                  > > Or the
                  > > floral types that we think of in Turkish carpets today? Would it
                  > > have been
                  > > feasible for a Scottish household to have table carpets that were
                  > > panels of
                  > > knotwork?
                  > >
                  > > Any help or pointers to books would be helpful.
                  > >
                  > > In Service to the Dream;
                  > >
                  > > Anne Cameron
                  > >
                  > > . . . when are you going to understand that being normal is not a
                  > > virtue, it
                  > > rather denotes a lack of courage. -- Aunt Franny, Practical Magic
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • oisswafford
                  ... Did they ... table ... designs? Or the ... have been ... panels of ... virtue, it ... Wow, I had no idea so many people would be interested. Here are some
                  Message 8 of 11 , Mar 3, 2008
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                    --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Kammy" <klchinnock@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I have a question dealing with table carpets, how big were they?
                    Did they
                    > just fit the top of the table, or did they hang over the sides like
                    table
                    > cloths?
                    >
                    > Also, what types of designs were used? Were they geometric
                    designs? Or the
                    > floral types that we think of in Turkish carpets today? Would it
                    have been
                    > feasible for a Scottish household to have table carpets that were
                    panels of
                    > knotwork?
                    >
                    > Any help or pointers to books would be helpful.
                    >
                    > In Service to the Dream;
                    >
                    > Anne Cameron
                    >
                    > . . . when are you going to understand that being normal is not a
                    virtue, it
                    > rather denotes a lack of courage. -- Aunt Franny, Practical Magic


                    Wow, I had no idea so many people would be interested. Here are some
                    links I could find - they are mostly images. The info I could find
                    about how they were made mostly covered tent stitch, there was only
                    one or two sources that talked about turkey stitch.

                    http://www.sca.org.au/pipermail/wcob/2003-October/002217.html - info
                    on the Lochac carpet and links about half way down

                    http://www.geocities.com/keridwenthemouse/rowanycarpet.htm - info
                    about the Rowany Carpet done in Lochac

                    http://www.bayrose.org/wkneedle/Articles/Canvaswork1.html - info on
                    how to do turkey work and bibliography for the book I first found
                    mention of the carpets in: Elizabethan Treasures: The Hardwick Hall
                    Textiles

                    I'm sure Arlys has more documentation but that may get you started.
                    It's what got me started.

                    YIS
                    Gwenlliana
                  • Cynthia J Ley
                    I hunted in a lot of places--basically every embroidery book I could lay my little paws on. Most useful was John L. Nevinson s _Catalogue of English Domestic
                    Message 9 of 11 , Mar 3, 2008
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                      I hunted in a lot of places--basically every embroidery book I could lay
                      my little paws on. Most useful was John L. Nevinson's _Catalogue of
                      English Domestic Embroidery of the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries_.
                      London: Victoria and Albert department of Textiles, 1938; Chapter I.

                      Some books to look for:

                      Beck, Thomasina. The Embroiderer's Story, 1995.
                      Benn, Elizabeth, ed. Treasures From the Embroiderer's Guild Collection,
                      1991.
                      Christie, Grace. Embroidery and Tapestry Weaving, 1928.
                      Digby, George Wingfield. Elizabethan Embroidery, 1963.
                      Jourdain, M. History of English Secular Embroider, 1912.
                      Swain, Margaret. Scottish Embroidery: Medieval to Modern.

                      Search engines: Google is your friend.

                      Arlys


                      On Tue, 04 Mar 2008 01:18:25 -0000 "oisswafford" <oisswafford@...>
                      writes:
                      > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Kammy" <klchinnock@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I have a question dealing with table carpets, how big were they?
                      > Did they
                      > > just fit the top of the table, or did they hang over the sides
                      > like
                      > table
                      > > cloths?
                      > >
                      > > Also, what types of designs were used? Were they geometric
                      > designs? Or the
                      > > floral types that we think of in Turkish carpets today? Would it
                      > have been
                      > > feasible for a Scottish household to have table carpets that were
                      > panels of
                      > > knotwork?
                      > >
                      > > Any help or pointers to books would be helpful.
                      > >
                      > > In Service to the Dream;
                      > >
                      > > Anne Cameron
                      > >
                      > > . . . when are you going to understand that being normal is not a
                      > virtue, it
                      > > rather denotes a lack of courage. -- Aunt Franny, Practical Magic
                      >
                      >
                      > Wow, I had no idea so many people would be interested. Here are
                      > some
                      > links I could find - they are mostly images. The info I could find
                      > about how they were made mostly covered tent stitch, there was only
                      > one or two sources that talked about turkey stitch.
                      >
                      > http://www.sca.org.au/pipermail/wcob/2003-October/002217.html - info
                      >
                      > on the Lochac carpet and links about half way down
                      >
                      > http://www.geocities.com/keridwenthemouse/rowanycarpet.htm - info
                      > about the Rowany Carpet done in Lochac
                      >
                      > http://www.bayrose.org/wkneedle/Articles/Canvaswork1.html - info on
                      > how to do turkey work and bibliography for the book I first found
                      > mention of the carpets in: Elizabethan Treasures: The Hardwick Hall
                      >
                      > Textiles
                      >
                      > I'm sure Arlys has more documentation but that may get you started.
                      >
                      > It's what got me started.
                      >
                      > YIS
                      > Gwenlliana
                      >
                      >
                      >
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