Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: table carpet

Expand Messages
  • borderlands15213
    ... This sounds fascinating. Turkey stitch does suggest Turkey or Turkestan, which latter does suggest kilim (or kelim or gelim) but those aren t pile
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 3, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "oisswafford" <oisswafford@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Greetings,
      >
      > I was reading a book about the embroideries in Hardwick Hall and there
      > was a brief mention of table carpets done in turkey stitch.
      > Unfortunately it was a very brief mention. I have been able to find
      > info on turkey stitch and info on embroidered table carpets but nothing
      > that combines them. Does anyone have any sources they could point me
      > to?

      This sounds fascinating. "Turkey stitch" does suggest Turkey or
      Turkestan, which latter does suggest kilim (or kelim or gelim) but
      those aren't pile carpets: they're flat, woven, a kind of tapestry,
      and not as durable as pile carpets. Whether that's a valid
      connection, I'm only guessing, I admit. To some modern eyes the weave
      is suggestive of needlepoint/gross point. (In fact, one writer of
      "decorating your first apartment on a budget, but making it look cool
      and classy" suggested purchasing old Oriental carpets or rugs at
      thrift stores or auctions or estate sales, and if the pile were worn
      down to the warp threads in places, or the colors were badly
      sun-faded, "just turn it over: instant Kelim!")
      Wish I could offer you more than these few, vague thoughts that
      "kilim," often used for prayer rugs, might be a direction worth
      exploring.
      But I'll be very interested in hearing whatever you learn!

      Yseult the Gentle
    • Cynthia J Ley
      Here s an excerpt from my Ithra class lecture Survey of Needlework: One of the more curious home furnishings to arise during the Tudor erea was that of the
      Message 2 of 11 , Mar 3, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        Here's an excerpt from my Ithra class lecture Survey of Needlework:

        "One of the more curious home furnishings to arise during the Tudor erea
        was that of the table carpet. Cardinal Wolsey may have started the
        fashion of importing oriental rugs from Turkey and its environs. Because
        these rugs--which were never used on floors, as floors were typically
        strewn with rushes--were so costly, it was only natural that people
        sought ways to create the effect without the expense. The reader will
        find references to both Turkish carpets and Turkey carpets. These are not
        the same thing. The latter were produced domestically in England. Turkish
        carpets are knotted; Turkey carpets are made in such a way as to imitate
        this effect. They are created by using back stitches with raised loops in
        between. The loops could be left as is, or clipped to form a pile as
        found in a carpet. Many table carpets were also done in tent stitch,
        cross stitch, or long arm cross stitch, also tent seems to dominate
        surviving works. Tent stitch--also called half cross, needlepoint, or
        tapestry stitch--was used to imitate tapestry using canvas or linen as a
        ground fabric. It uses a slanting stitch, and came in three accepted
        sizes--petit point, which uses tiny stitches; demi-point, which uses
        medium; and gros point, which uses large stitches. This was made easier
        by using evenweave linens or canvases as grounds. During the medieval
        period, tent stitch was also known as opus pulvinarium or cushion work."

        Arlys
      • Amy Heilveil
        Arlys, Could you provide a reference for the information? I d love to read more about Turkey carpets and the like and your information sounds like it comes
        Message 3 of 11 , Mar 3, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Arlys,

          Could you provide a reference for the information? I'd love to read
          more about Turkey carpets and the like and your information sounds
          like it comes from a source that would be very interesting indeed!

          Smiles,
          Despina de la new butterfly to chase
        • Cynthia J Ley
          It s from a bunch of different sources--I ll try to hunt them down after work today. :-) Arlys On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 12:17:42 -0500 Amy Heilveil
          Message 4 of 11 , Mar 3, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            It's from a bunch of different sources--I'll try to hunt them down after
            work today. :-)

            Arlys

            On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 12:17:42 -0500 "Amy Heilveil" <amyheilveil@...>
            writes:
            > Arlys,
            >
            > Could you provide a reference for the information? I'd love to read
            > more about Turkey carpets and the like and your information sounds
            > like it comes from a source that would be very interesting indeed!
            >
            > Smiles,
            > Despina de la new butterfly to chase
          • Kammy
            I have a question dealing with table carpets, how big were they? Did they just fit the top of the table, or did they hang over the sides like table cloths?
            Message 5 of 11 , Mar 3, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              I have a question dealing with table carpets, how big were they? Did they
              just fit the top of the table, or did they hang over the sides like table
              cloths?

              Also, what types of designs were used? Were they geometric designs? Or the
              floral types that we think of in Turkish carpets today? Would it have been
              feasible for a Scottish household to have table carpets that were panels of
              knotwork?

              Any help or pointers to books would be helpful.

              In Service to the Dream;

              Anne Cameron

              . . . when are you going to understand that being normal is not a virtue, it
              rather denotes a lack of courage. -- Aunt Franny, Practical Magic
            • Kareina Talvi Tytär
              ... This exchange is a beautiful example of why it is helpful to cite one s sources within the text of whatever one is writing, particularly something like
              Message 6 of 11 , Mar 3, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                >Despina de la new butterfly to chase wrote:
                > > Could you provide a reference for the information? I'd love to read
                > > more about Turkey carpets and the like and your information sounds
                > > like it comes from a source that would be very interesting indeed!

                and Arlys replied:

                >It's from a bunch of different sources--I'll try to hunt them down after
                >work today. :-)

                This exchange is a beautiful example of why it is helpful to cite
                one's sources within the text of whatever one is writing,
                particularly something like notes for a class one is
                teaching! Sooner or later, someone *will* ask you where you found a
                piece of information. If you've got a habit of either using
                scientific notation and putting a parenthetical note right next to
                each fact such as: (Jones, 2001) or using one of the many other forms
                of citation, such as a footnote or endnote pointing to the source
                (which is listed in a bibliography showing useful details such as
                author, date, title, publisher, and anything else we'd need to find a
                copy), then when someone wants to know they can just go look it up
                for themselves, *and* you won't have to remember which bit came from
                where! Sure, it is a tiny bit more work at the time to link every
                fact with a source (or multiple sources!), but it saves much effort
                later when you want to go back and look at the source again!

                --Kareina, not picking on Arlys, but offering general advice to those
                who are new to the combination of research and writing it down to
                share with others, since in a list this size, there will be some!
              • Cynthia J Ley
                The Bradford shows various hunting and fishing scenes, with a pretty architectual rail across the top and bottom edges. Check under Victoria and Albert Museum,
                Message 7 of 11 , Mar 3, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  The Bradford shows various hunting and fishing scenes, with a pretty
                  architectual rail across the top and bottom edges. Check under Victoria
                  and Albert Museum, images, catalog #T.31-1914. The V&A is also pretty
                  good about giving dimensions. This particular piece has a marked slant to
                  it, probably generated by the fact that it's worked entirely in tent
                  stitch, which is slanted.

                  It's my general impression that they were placed on tabletops with no
                  overhanging bits. They were an exercise in status, and what good are
                  status symbols if folks can't ooo and ahh over them? 8-)

                  Arlys (I know, dig up those sources already!) ;-)

                  On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 14:47:39 -0700 "Kammy" <klchinnock@...>
                  writes:
                  > I have a question dealing with table carpets, how big were they? Did
                  > they
                  > just fit the top of the table, or did they hang over the sides like
                  > table
                  > cloths?
                  >
                  > Also, what types of designs were used? Were they geometric designs?
                  > Or the
                  > floral types that we think of in Turkish carpets today? Would it
                  > have been
                  > feasible for a Scottish household to have table carpets that were
                  > panels of
                  > knotwork?
                  >
                  > Any help or pointers to books would be helpful.
                  >
                  > In Service to the Dream;
                  >
                  > Anne Cameron
                  >
                  > . . . when are you going to understand that being normal is not a
                  > virtue, it
                  > rather denotes a lack of courage. -- Aunt Franny, Practical Magic
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Katherine Throckmorton
                  ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Message 8 of 11 , Mar 3, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 5:10 PM, Cynthia J Ley <cley@...> wrote:

                    > The Bradford shows various hunting and fishing scenes, with a pretty
                    > architectual rail across the top and bottom edges. Check under Victoria
                    > and Albert Museum, images, catalog #T.31-1914. The V&A is also pretty
                    > good about giving dimensions. This particular piece has a marked slant to
                    > it, probably generated by the fact that it's worked entirely in tent
                    > stitch, which is slanted.
                    >
                    > It's my general impression that they were placed on tabletops with no
                    > overhanging bits. They were an exercise in status, and what good are
                    > status symbols if folks can't ooo and ahh over them? 8-)
                    >
                    > Arlys (I know, dig up those sources already!) ;-)
                    >
                    > On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 14:47:39 -0700 "Kammy" <klchinnock@...<klchinnock%40comcast.net>
                    > >
                    > writes:
                    >
                    > > I have a question dealing with table carpets, how big were they? Did
                    > > they
                    > > just fit the top of the table, or did they hang over the sides like
                    > > table
                    > > cloths?
                    > >
                    > > Also, what types of designs were used? Were they geometric designs?
                    > > Or the
                    > > floral types that we think of in Turkish carpets today? Would it
                    > > have been
                    > > feasible for a Scottish household to have table carpets that were
                    > > panels of
                    > > knotwork?
                    > >
                    > > Any help or pointers to books would be helpful.
                    > >
                    > > In Service to the Dream;
                    > >
                    > > Anne Cameron
                    > >
                    > > . . . when are you going to understand that being normal is not a
                    > > virtue, it
                    > > rather denotes a lack of courage. -- Aunt Franny, Practical Magic
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • oisswafford
                    ... Did they ... table ... designs? Or the ... have been ... panels of ... virtue, it ... Wow, I had no idea so many people would be interested. Here are some
                    Message 9 of 11 , Mar 3, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Kammy" <klchinnock@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I have a question dealing with table carpets, how big were they?
                      Did they
                      > just fit the top of the table, or did they hang over the sides like
                      table
                      > cloths?
                      >
                      > Also, what types of designs were used? Were they geometric
                      designs? Or the
                      > floral types that we think of in Turkish carpets today? Would it
                      have been
                      > feasible for a Scottish household to have table carpets that were
                      panels of
                      > knotwork?
                      >
                      > Any help or pointers to books would be helpful.
                      >
                      > In Service to the Dream;
                      >
                      > Anne Cameron
                      >
                      > . . . when are you going to understand that being normal is not a
                      virtue, it
                      > rather denotes a lack of courage. -- Aunt Franny, Practical Magic


                      Wow, I had no idea so many people would be interested. Here are some
                      links I could find - they are mostly images. The info I could find
                      about how they were made mostly covered tent stitch, there was only
                      one or two sources that talked about turkey stitch.

                      http://www.sca.org.au/pipermail/wcob/2003-October/002217.html - info
                      on the Lochac carpet and links about half way down

                      http://www.geocities.com/keridwenthemouse/rowanycarpet.htm - info
                      about the Rowany Carpet done in Lochac

                      http://www.bayrose.org/wkneedle/Articles/Canvaswork1.html - info on
                      how to do turkey work and bibliography for the book I first found
                      mention of the carpets in: Elizabethan Treasures: The Hardwick Hall
                      Textiles

                      I'm sure Arlys has more documentation but that may get you started.
                      It's what got me started.

                      YIS
                      Gwenlliana
                    • Cynthia J Ley
                      I hunted in a lot of places--basically every embroidery book I could lay my little paws on. Most useful was John L. Nevinson s _Catalogue of English Domestic
                      Message 10 of 11 , Mar 3, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I hunted in a lot of places--basically every embroidery book I could lay
                        my little paws on. Most useful was John L. Nevinson's _Catalogue of
                        English Domestic Embroidery of the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries_.
                        London: Victoria and Albert department of Textiles, 1938; Chapter I.

                        Some books to look for:

                        Beck, Thomasina. The Embroiderer's Story, 1995.
                        Benn, Elizabeth, ed. Treasures From the Embroiderer's Guild Collection,
                        1991.
                        Christie, Grace. Embroidery and Tapestry Weaving, 1928.
                        Digby, George Wingfield. Elizabethan Embroidery, 1963.
                        Jourdain, M. History of English Secular Embroider, 1912.
                        Swain, Margaret. Scottish Embroidery: Medieval to Modern.

                        Search engines: Google is your friend.

                        Arlys


                        On Tue, 04 Mar 2008 01:18:25 -0000 "oisswafford" <oisswafford@...>
                        writes:
                        > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Kammy" <klchinnock@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I have a question dealing with table carpets, how big were they?
                        > Did they
                        > > just fit the top of the table, or did they hang over the sides
                        > like
                        > table
                        > > cloths?
                        > >
                        > > Also, what types of designs were used? Were they geometric
                        > designs? Or the
                        > > floral types that we think of in Turkish carpets today? Would it
                        > have been
                        > > feasible for a Scottish household to have table carpets that were
                        > panels of
                        > > knotwork?
                        > >
                        > > Any help or pointers to books would be helpful.
                        > >
                        > > In Service to the Dream;
                        > >
                        > > Anne Cameron
                        > >
                        > > . . . when are you going to understand that being normal is not a
                        > virtue, it
                        > > rather denotes a lack of courage. -- Aunt Franny, Practical Magic
                        >
                        >
                        > Wow, I had no idea so many people would be interested. Here are
                        > some
                        > links I could find - they are mostly images. The info I could find
                        > about how they were made mostly covered tent stitch, there was only
                        > one or two sources that talked about turkey stitch.
                        >
                        > http://www.sca.org.au/pipermail/wcob/2003-October/002217.html - info
                        >
                        > on the Lochac carpet and links about half way down
                        >
                        > http://www.geocities.com/keridwenthemouse/rowanycarpet.htm - info
                        > about the Rowany Carpet done in Lochac
                        >
                        > http://www.bayrose.org/wkneedle/Articles/Canvaswork1.html - info on
                        > how to do turkey work and bibliography for the book I first found
                        > mention of the carpets in: Elizabethan Treasures: The Hardwick Hall
                        >
                        > Textiles
                        >
                        > I'm sure Arlys has more documentation but that may get you started.
                        >
                        > It's what got me started.
                        >
                        > YIS
                        > Gwenlliana
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.