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table carpet

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  • oisswafford
    Greetings, I was reading a book about the embroideries in Hardwick Hall and there was a brief mention of table carpets done in turkey stitch. Unfortunately it
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 2, 2008
      Greetings,

      I was reading a book about the embroideries in Hardwick Hall and there
      was a brief mention of table carpets done in turkey stitch.
      Unfortunately it was a very brief mention. I have been able to find
      info on turkey stitch and info on embroidered table carpets but nothing
      that combines them. Does anyone have any sources they could point me
      to?

      Thanks
      Gwenlliana
    • borderlands15213
      ... This sounds fascinating. Turkey stitch does suggest Turkey or Turkestan, which latter does suggest kilim (or kelim or gelim) but those aren t pile
      Message 2 of 11 , Mar 3, 2008
        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "oisswafford" <oisswafford@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Greetings,
        >
        > I was reading a book about the embroideries in Hardwick Hall and there
        > was a brief mention of table carpets done in turkey stitch.
        > Unfortunately it was a very brief mention. I have been able to find
        > info on turkey stitch and info on embroidered table carpets but nothing
        > that combines them. Does anyone have any sources they could point me
        > to?

        This sounds fascinating. "Turkey stitch" does suggest Turkey or
        Turkestan, which latter does suggest kilim (or kelim or gelim) but
        those aren't pile carpets: they're flat, woven, a kind of tapestry,
        and not as durable as pile carpets. Whether that's a valid
        connection, I'm only guessing, I admit. To some modern eyes the weave
        is suggestive of needlepoint/gross point. (In fact, one writer of
        "decorating your first apartment on a budget, but making it look cool
        and classy" suggested purchasing old Oriental carpets or rugs at
        thrift stores or auctions or estate sales, and if the pile were worn
        down to the warp threads in places, or the colors were badly
        sun-faded, "just turn it over: instant Kelim!")
        Wish I could offer you more than these few, vague thoughts that
        "kilim," often used for prayer rugs, might be a direction worth
        exploring.
        But I'll be very interested in hearing whatever you learn!

        Yseult the Gentle
      • Cynthia J Ley
        Here s an excerpt from my Ithra class lecture Survey of Needlework: One of the more curious home furnishings to arise during the Tudor erea was that of the
        Message 3 of 11 , Mar 3, 2008
          Here's an excerpt from my Ithra class lecture Survey of Needlework:

          "One of the more curious home furnishings to arise during the Tudor erea
          was that of the table carpet. Cardinal Wolsey may have started the
          fashion of importing oriental rugs from Turkey and its environs. Because
          these rugs--which were never used on floors, as floors were typically
          strewn with rushes--were so costly, it was only natural that people
          sought ways to create the effect without the expense. The reader will
          find references to both Turkish carpets and Turkey carpets. These are not
          the same thing. The latter were produced domestically in England. Turkish
          carpets are knotted; Turkey carpets are made in such a way as to imitate
          this effect. They are created by using back stitches with raised loops in
          between. The loops could be left as is, or clipped to form a pile as
          found in a carpet. Many table carpets were also done in tent stitch,
          cross stitch, or long arm cross stitch, also tent seems to dominate
          surviving works. Tent stitch--also called half cross, needlepoint, or
          tapestry stitch--was used to imitate tapestry using canvas or linen as a
          ground fabric. It uses a slanting stitch, and came in three accepted
          sizes--petit point, which uses tiny stitches; demi-point, which uses
          medium; and gros point, which uses large stitches. This was made easier
          by using evenweave linens or canvases as grounds. During the medieval
          period, tent stitch was also known as opus pulvinarium or cushion work."

          Arlys
        • Amy Heilveil
          Arlys, Could you provide a reference for the information? I d love to read more about Turkey carpets and the like and your information sounds like it comes
          Message 4 of 11 , Mar 3, 2008
            Arlys,

            Could you provide a reference for the information? I'd love to read
            more about Turkey carpets and the like and your information sounds
            like it comes from a source that would be very interesting indeed!

            Smiles,
            Despina de la new butterfly to chase
          • Cynthia J Ley
            It s from a bunch of different sources--I ll try to hunt them down after work today. :-) Arlys On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 12:17:42 -0500 Amy Heilveil
            Message 5 of 11 , Mar 3, 2008
              It's from a bunch of different sources--I'll try to hunt them down after
              work today. :-)

              Arlys

              On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 12:17:42 -0500 "Amy Heilveil" <amyheilveil@...>
              writes:
              > Arlys,
              >
              > Could you provide a reference for the information? I'd love to read
              > more about Turkey carpets and the like and your information sounds
              > like it comes from a source that would be very interesting indeed!
              >
              > Smiles,
              > Despina de la new butterfly to chase
            • Kammy
              I have a question dealing with table carpets, how big were they? Did they just fit the top of the table, or did they hang over the sides like table cloths?
              Message 6 of 11 , Mar 3, 2008
                I have a question dealing with table carpets, how big were they? Did they
                just fit the top of the table, or did they hang over the sides like table
                cloths?

                Also, what types of designs were used? Were they geometric designs? Or the
                floral types that we think of in Turkish carpets today? Would it have been
                feasible for a Scottish household to have table carpets that were panels of
                knotwork?

                Any help or pointers to books would be helpful.

                In Service to the Dream;

                Anne Cameron

                . . . when are you going to understand that being normal is not a virtue, it
                rather denotes a lack of courage. -- Aunt Franny, Practical Magic
              • Kareina Talvi Tytär
                ... This exchange is a beautiful example of why it is helpful to cite one s sources within the text of whatever one is writing, particularly something like
                Message 7 of 11 , Mar 3, 2008
                  >Despina de la new butterfly to chase wrote:
                  > > Could you provide a reference for the information? I'd love to read
                  > > more about Turkey carpets and the like and your information sounds
                  > > like it comes from a source that would be very interesting indeed!

                  and Arlys replied:

                  >It's from a bunch of different sources--I'll try to hunt them down after
                  >work today. :-)

                  This exchange is a beautiful example of why it is helpful to cite
                  one's sources within the text of whatever one is writing,
                  particularly something like notes for a class one is
                  teaching! Sooner or later, someone *will* ask you where you found a
                  piece of information. If you've got a habit of either using
                  scientific notation and putting a parenthetical note right next to
                  each fact such as: (Jones, 2001) or using one of the many other forms
                  of citation, such as a footnote or endnote pointing to the source
                  (which is listed in a bibliography showing useful details such as
                  author, date, title, publisher, and anything else we'd need to find a
                  copy), then when someone wants to know they can just go look it up
                  for themselves, *and* you won't have to remember which bit came from
                  where! Sure, it is a tiny bit more work at the time to link every
                  fact with a source (or multiple sources!), but it saves much effort
                  later when you want to go back and look at the source again!

                  --Kareina, not picking on Arlys, but offering general advice to those
                  who are new to the combination of research and writing it down to
                  share with others, since in a list this size, there will be some!
                • Cynthia J Ley
                  The Bradford shows various hunting and fishing scenes, with a pretty architectual rail across the top and bottom edges. Check under Victoria and Albert Museum,
                  Message 8 of 11 , Mar 3, 2008
                    The Bradford shows various hunting and fishing scenes, with a pretty
                    architectual rail across the top and bottom edges. Check under Victoria
                    and Albert Museum, images, catalog #T.31-1914. The V&A is also pretty
                    good about giving dimensions. This particular piece has a marked slant to
                    it, probably generated by the fact that it's worked entirely in tent
                    stitch, which is slanted.

                    It's my general impression that they were placed on tabletops with no
                    overhanging bits. They were an exercise in status, and what good are
                    status symbols if folks can't ooo and ahh over them? 8-)

                    Arlys (I know, dig up those sources already!) ;-)

                    On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 14:47:39 -0700 "Kammy" <klchinnock@...>
                    writes:
                    > I have a question dealing with table carpets, how big were they? Did
                    > they
                    > just fit the top of the table, or did they hang over the sides like
                    > table
                    > cloths?
                    >
                    > Also, what types of designs were used? Were they geometric designs?
                    > Or the
                    > floral types that we think of in Turkish carpets today? Would it
                    > have been
                    > feasible for a Scottish household to have table carpets that were
                    > panels of
                    > knotwork?
                    >
                    > Any help or pointers to books would be helpful.
                    >
                    > In Service to the Dream;
                    >
                    > Anne Cameron
                    >
                    > . . . when are you going to understand that being normal is not a
                    > virtue, it
                    > rather denotes a lack of courage. -- Aunt Franny, Practical Magic
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Katherine Throckmorton
                    ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    Message 9 of 11 , Mar 3, 2008
                      On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 5:10 PM, Cynthia J Ley <cley@...> wrote:

                      > The Bradford shows various hunting and fishing scenes, with a pretty
                      > architectual rail across the top and bottom edges. Check under Victoria
                      > and Albert Museum, images, catalog #T.31-1914. The V&A is also pretty
                      > good about giving dimensions. This particular piece has a marked slant to
                      > it, probably generated by the fact that it's worked entirely in tent
                      > stitch, which is slanted.
                      >
                      > It's my general impression that they were placed on tabletops with no
                      > overhanging bits. They were an exercise in status, and what good are
                      > status symbols if folks can't ooo and ahh over them? 8-)
                      >
                      > Arlys (I know, dig up those sources already!) ;-)
                      >
                      > On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 14:47:39 -0700 "Kammy" <klchinnock@...<klchinnock%40comcast.net>
                      > >
                      > writes:
                      >
                      > > I have a question dealing with table carpets, how big were they? Did
                      > > they
                      > > just fit the top of the table, or did they hang over the sides like
                      > > table
                      > > cloths?
                      > >
                      > > Also, what types of designs were used? Were they geometric designs?
                      > > Or the
                      > > floral types that we think of in Turkish carpets today? Would it
                      > > have been
                      > > feasible for a Scottish household to have table carpets that were
                      > > panels of
                      > > knotwork?
                      > >
                      > > Any help or pointers to books would be helpful.
                      > >
                      > > In Service to the Dream;
                      > >
                      > > Anne Cameron
                      > >
                      > > . . . when are you going to understand that being normal is not a
                      > > virtue, it
                      > > rather denotes a lack of courage. -- Aunt Franny, Practical Magic
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • oisswafford
                      ... Did they ... table ... designs? Or the ... have been ... panels of ... virtue, it ... Wow, I had no idea so many people would be interested. Here are some
                      Message 10 of 11 , Mar 3, 2008
                        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Kammy" <klchinnock@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I have a question dealing with table carpets, how big were they?
                        Did they
                        > just fit the top of the table, or did they hang over the sides like
                        table
                        > cloths?
                        >
                        > Also, what types of designs were used? Were they geometric
                        designs? Or the
                        > floral types that we think of in Turkish carpets today? Would it
                        have been
                        > feasible for a Scottish household to have table carpets that were
                        panels of
                        > knotwork?
                        >
                        > Any help or pointers to books would be helpful.
                        >
                        > In Service to the Dream;
                        >
                        > Anne Cameron
                        >
                        > . . . when are you going to understand that being normal is not a
                        virtue, it
                        > rather denotes a lack of courage. -- Aunt Franny, Practical Magic


                        Wow, I had no idea so many people would be interested. Here are some
                        links I could find - they are mostly images. The info I could find
                        about how they were made mostly covered tent stitch, there was only
                        one or two sources that talked about turkey stitch.

                        http://www.sca.org.au/pipermail/wcob/2003-October/002217.html - info
                        on the Lochac carpet and links about half way down

                        http://www.geocities.com/keridwenthemouse/rowanycarpet.htm - info
                        about the Rowany Carpet done in Lochac

                        http://www.bayrose.org/wkneedle/Articles/Canvaswork1.html - info on
                        how to do turkey work and bibliography for the book I first found
                        mention of the carpets in: Elizabethan Treasures: The Hardwick Hall
                        Textiles

                        I'm sure Arlys has more documentation but that may get you started.
                        It's what got me started.

                        YIS
                        Gwenlliana
                      • Cynthia J Ley
                        I hunted in a lot of places--basically every embroidery book I could lay my little paws on. Most useful was John L. Nevinson s _Catalogue of English Domestic
                        Message 11 of 11 , Mar 3, 2008
                          I hunted in a lot of places--basically every embroidery book I could lay
                          my little paws on. Most useful was John L. Nevinson's _Catalogue of
                          English Domestic Embroidery of the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries_.
                          London: Victoria and Albert department of Textiles, 1938; Chapter I.

                          Some books to look for:

                          Beck, Thomasina. The Embroiderer's Story, 1995.
                          Benn, Elizabeth, ed. Treasures From the Embroiderer's Guild Collection,
                          1991.
                          Christie, Grace. Embroidery and Tapestry Weaving, 1928.
                          Digby, George Wingfield. Elizabethan Embroidery, 1963.
                          Jourdain, M. History of English Secular Embroider, 1912.
                          Swain, Margaret. Scottish Embroidery: Medieval to Modern.

                          Search engines: Google is your friend.

                          Arlys


                          On Tue, 04 Mar 2008 01:18:25 -0000 "oisswafford" <oisswafford@...>
                          writes:
                          > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Kammy" <klchinnock@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I have a question dealing with table carpets, how big were they?
                          > Did they
                          > > just fit the top of the table, or did they hang over the sides
                          > like
                          > table
                          > > cloths?
                          > >
                          > > Also, what types of designs were used? Were they geometric
                          > designs? Or the
                          > > floral types that we think of in Turkish carpets today? Would it
                          > have been
                          > > feasible for a Scottish household to have table carpets that were
                          > panels of
                          > > knotwork?
                          > >
                          > > Any help or pointers to books would be helpful.
                          > >
                          > > In Service to the Dream;
                          > >
                          > > Anne Cameron
                          > >
                          > > . . . when are you going to understand that being normal is not a
                          > virtue, it
                          > > rather denotes a lack of courage. -- Aunt Franny, Practical Magic
                          >
                          >
                          > Wow, I had no idea so many people would be interested. Here are
                          > some
                          > links I could find - they are mostly images. The info I could find
                          > about how they were made mostly covered tent stitch, there was only
                          > one or two sources that talked about turkey stitch.
                          >
                          > http://www.sca.org.au/pipermail/wcob/2003-October/002217.html - info
                          >
                          > on the Lochac carpet and links about half way down
                          >
                          > http://www.geocities.com/keridwenthemouse/rowanycarpet.htm - info
                          > about the Rowany Carpet done in Lochac
                          >
                          > http://www.bayrose.org/wkneedle/Articles/Canvaswork1.html - info on
                          > how to do turkey work and bibliography for the book I first found
                          > mention of the carpets in: Elizabethan Treasures: The Hardwick Hall
                          >
                          > Textiles
                          >
                          > I'm sure Arlys has more documentation but that may get you started.
                          >
                          > It's what got me started.
                          >
                          > YIS
                          > Gwenlliana
                          >
                          >
                          >
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