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RE: [Authentic_SCA] What do you consider essential?

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  • Jessica
    MODERATOR NOTE - As a courtesy to our many members who receive this list in digest form, we request that you not top post and that you trim any text from
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 27, 2008
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      MODERATOR NOTE - As a courtesy to our many members who receive this list in digest form, we request that you not top post and that you trim any text from previous posts that does not require repetition. Thank you. Jehanne de Wodeford, Pacific Time Zone Moderator.

      Message order reversed:

      From: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com On Behalf Of pandora_heinlein

      When someone is getting started in the SCA and is wishing to remain on
      the authentic side of things what do you consider essential
      gear/garb/persona information?

      This is such a HUGE question to ask, that I'm sure a lot of people will want
      to chime in on this. Most will tell you to choose a time period first. I
      say start at the beginning - do some reading. I have to admit, I love to
      research. (yeah, a little bit of a geek here - but who's surprised?) If you
      have friends that are into a particular time period, start there - ask them
      what they do. If you have a particular time period that you love, start
      there - either you'll continue to love it, and want to learn more, or you'll
      move on to a different period. The joy of the SCA is that we all take out
      of it what we put into it. Most new people start with some fantasy garb and
      a love of either fighting or watching others fight. I have to congratulate
      you on your interest in authenticity!

      As far as essentials, you would start with the garb - and remember that an
      outfit needs to be built from the skin out, not from the gown in. If you
      are wearing Tudor garb, you will have to wear a corset (as a woman) or a
      codpiece (as a man). On the other hand, a corset is not a good choice for
      12th Century Aquitaine, as the outer garments won't look right. Talk to
      your local garb Laurels, or simply to those that have fabulous garb. Once
      you are dressed properly, everything else should start to fall into place.

      YIS,

      Findabhair

      _____
    • wodeford
      ... An open mind and a library card. Seriously. When you re new, how do you know what you want to pursue in the SCA? How do you know what time period/culture
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 27, 2008
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        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "pandora_heinlein" <Deb@...> wrote:
        >
        > When someone is getting started in the SCA and is wishing to remain on
        > the authentic side of things what do you consider essential
        > gear/garb/persona information?

        An open mind and a library card.

        Seriously. When you're new, how do you know what you want to pursue in
        the SCA? How do you know what time period/culture you want to immerse
        yourself in? Most newcomers don't. Figuring that out takes time.
        Investing in kit that turns out to be all wrong for you gets wasteful
        and expensive.

        OK. Bare minimum:

        Clothing. One tunic or tunic type dress of period construction, shirt
        or shift to wear under it, a belt, a veil (ladies, headcoverings!) or
        hat. Footwear that is not glaringly modern (because medieval shoes are
        something of an investment, whether you learn to make your own or
        purchase from the growing number of vendors catering to the SCA and
        other re-enactment communities).
        http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/beginners.php?s=&c=8&d=141&e=&f=&g=&a=126&w=2
        has a nice "beginner" article.

        Feastware: A bowl. A cup. A knife. A spoon. A plate or platter. A
        cloth napkin. A basket or box to keep it in. You may be able to kit
        yourself out at the nearest thrift shop. Again, start with things that
        are not glaringly modern and will get the job done until you are SURE
        that you absolutely must have 15th century prunted glassware or a 9th
        century drinking horn with which to slake your thirst.

        Camping is a whole 'nother ball of wax and period camp accoutrements
        can involve some investment, either in cash or time and skill if you
        try to make them yourself.

        Good luck,
        Jehanne de Wodeford
        West Kingdom
      • Melisende Fitzwalter
        I have found that you can get by for years on the following: - Authentic name - researched online or in a library - nothing too fancy and that can span a
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 28, 2008
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          I have found that you can get by for years on the
          following:

          - Authentic name - researched online or in a library -
          nothing too fancy and that can span a couple of
          centuries if necessary in case of change in period -
          with a broad outline of the type of person your
          persona was in case anyone asks.
          - A standard period fabric undergarment for the chosen
          period
          - Standard period fabric leg garments for the period
          - standard overgarment in period fabric
          - Standard Head covering in period fabric.
          - Common shoe-type for the period
          - Belt and pouch
          - Wooden bowl/platter
          - Spoon and knife (and fork if slightly later period)
          - Tankard or beaker
          - Wicker/wooden recepticle to hold the above.

          The above in my estimation is the bare minimum to
          maintain an authentic "look" and feel, and can be
          built upon and added to over time and increased
          research/knowledge.

          YIS,
          Melisende
        • Rosie (aka Nawojka)
          ... I actually don t think that is the right thing to be aiming for when getting started. I believe the first thing to do is to un-modernise. Some sort of
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 28, 2008
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            > When someone is getting started in the SCA and is wishing to remain on
            > the authentic side of things what do you consider essential
            > gear/garb/persona information?
            >
            > In Service
            > Deborah
            >

            I actually don't think that is the right thing to be aiming for when
            getting started. I believe the first thing to do is to "un-modernise."
            Some sort of garb obviously, but I mean taking bread and cheese instead
            of sandwiches, a basket instead of your backpack, a calico bag to hide
            your mobile and keys in, a wooden stool instead of your plastic one
            from the camping shop, that sort of thing. By the time you've done
            that, you'll have been around long enough to have some aims, and a
            lengthy list of projects to work towards.
            The only real essentials, as far as I can see, are some form of garb,
            and some feast gear. The rest can wait until you've found the direction
            you want to persue. It's a journey, remember. No one is supposed to
            have it right immediately. Like I said, once you've un-modernised,
            you'll have far more idea of what you want to do. It's a game not work!
            If you've got op-shop feast gear and a tunic, then get side tracked
            onto a fabulous embroidery project, who is anyone else to tell you you
            shouldn't? If you have a borrowed tunic and spend your entire first
            event in the kitchen, I assure you no one will complain!
            At risk of sounding poetic/ corny, we all have our own road to follow
            and detours are not a waste of time.
            :)
            Rosie/Nawojka
          • bronwynmgn@aol.com
            In a message dated 2/28/2008 4:39:21 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com writes:
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 28, 2008
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              In a message dated 2/28/2008 4:39:21 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
              Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com writes:

              <<When someone is getting started in the SCA and is wishing to remain on
              the authentic side of things what do you consider essential
              gear/garb/persona information? >>

              A historically appropriate name is important. It's going to be hard to even
              think about being a medieval person if everyone is calling you Trish or
              Daeshawn, and regardless of how accurate your clothing is, as soon as you
              introduce yourself, you will break the spell. Finding a good name takes research,
              but not a lot of money. When you hear yourself being called by a name that's
              appropriate to the persona you want, it's much easier to remember to stay
              away from modern topics like your computer and such, I think.

              Brangwayna Morgan



              **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living.
              (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/
              2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)
            • Natalie W.
              ... ,_._,___ At my first SCA event I was awfully proud of myself for having made a high medieval dress out of an old curtain with a matching drop-waist tie
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 28, 2008
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                > When someone is getting started in the SCA and is wishing to remain on
                > the authentic side of things what do you consider essential
                > gear/garb/persona information?
                >
                > In Service
                > Deborah.
                ,_._,___
                At my first SCA event I was awfully proud of myself for having made a high medieval dress out of an old curtain with a matching drop-waist tie belt. Proud until some high n mighty ninny announced to me that as the fabric was poly-blend and more of a high Victorian design, I was completely off the mark. I was crestfallen. Fortunately, my local Baron (who I hadn't yet met at that point) swooped in and wagged his Laurel/Knight/Pelican finger at the ne'er do well and reminded her that "No one is expected to step from the head of Zeus fully garbed in documented fashion their first time out!".....He also reminded the individual that as I'd made the dress myself, the local Chatelaine had been able to give the barony's loaner garb to someone else and that I should be commended for "trying" hard to be un-modern!

                Never forget that the SCA is a "Living History" group...one joins in order to learn. It's a journey. Few newcomers have their personnae yet. (Took me a year to figure mine out and I'm still tweaking 4 years later...which is tough because every time I change something, it costs me a fortune in garb! LOL). I'd echo the advice of others here to "un modernize" as much as possible. If you only have the modern equivalent of something, be creative about "covering it up" or "disguising" modern things. Don't sew? A pair of curtain panels pinned together will make a simple Greek dress. Who hasn't made a toga out of a bed sheet? Contact your local chatelaine and ask what loaner garb might be available. HIDE your phone, keys, wallet in a basket if you're female. Make a pouch out of a hankie and string and tie it to a leather belt around your waist if you're male. Bring a cushion to sit on if you don't have a wooden stool. If you only have a modern camping chair,
                throw a blanket over it.

                Still worried you can't hid your non-authentic appearance or lack of knowledge, VOLUNTEER for something! All will be overlooked! LOL

                Lead by example all ye authenticos! Lead on.

                YIS
                Ariadne
                Caid

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • i_odlin
                ... I am confused by the message you are trying to convey. You say you were proud of your high medieval dress. Except it evidently wasn t. When someone
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 29, 2008
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                  --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Natalie W." <equigal_99@...> wrote:

                  > At my first SCA event I was awfully proud of myself for having made
                  > a high medieval dress out of an old curtain with a matching
                  > drop-waist tie belt. Proud until some high n mighty ninny announced
                  > to me that as the fabric was poly-blend and more of a high Victorian
                  > design, I was completely off the mark. [...]

                  I am confused by the message you are trying to convey.

                  You say you were proud of your "high medieval dress." Except it
                  evidently wasn't.

                  When someone points out that it is in fact high Victorian and off-
                  target by several centuries, you appear to have gotten mad about it.
                  You call this person a "high n mighty ninny" and a "ne'er do well"
                  even now and delight in the solace provided by a dressing-down of
                  this gentle by your local Baron-with-Many-Danglies.

                  Then you close your tale with:

                  > Never forget that the SCA is a "Living History" group...one joins
                  > in order to learn.

                  Granted, I was not there. I did not experience your particular
                  dressing down and I don't know what led into it. Perhaps you were
                  showing it off and telling folks how proud you were of your medieval
                  dress and someone felt moved to correct your misapprehension. And
                  perhaps it was -- as you present it -- an unwarranted out-of-the-blue
                  attack by a Genuine Authenticity Fascist {tm}.

                  Regardless, you seem to be arguing that because you felt pride in
                  your dress it warranted neither correction nor improvement.

                  This makes your story as presented seem antithetical to your
                  statement that learning is the point of the SCA.

                  I was similarly accosted at my first event by someone who felt
                  compelled for whatever reason to comment on my garb. I pointed out
                  his shoes weren't contemporary with the rest of what he was wearing
                  and then asked him what he felt I had gotten wrong. Turns out he was
                  right. And so was I. We talked and learned a few things about our
                  clothing from each other.

                  Proud as I was of what I had made, I didn't let that pride stand in
                  the way of learning something from someone else.

                  Surely we must learn from our mistakes instead of clinging to them,
                  no matter how we learn of them?

                  -Iain of Malagentia
                • mary_m_haselbauer
                  If someone is determined to be authentic I d first make sure they aren t pursuing it soley out of fear of being snarked. Next I d advise them to follow the
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 29, 2008
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                    If someone is determined to be authentic I'd first make sure they
                    aren't pursuing it soley out of fear of being snarked. Next I'd advise
                    them to follow the evidence and choose an area that is particularly
                    well documented with archaeological finds (published in a language the
                    newcomer reads) and/or has an abundance of naturalistic and detailed
                    artwork.

                    While thinking of clothing from the innermost layer out is a good idea
                    I wonder if starting with accessories be better. There seems to be a
                    lot more surviving pouches than tunics. Shoes are more difficult as a
                    previous post mentioned but a good hood and belt can make an otherwise
                    sad tunic look really sharp.

                    Cheers,
                    Slaine
                  • jentien@aol.com
                    Just thought I might ad a little something here......I would suggest keeping it simple at first, and perhaps opting for the more simple clothing of the lower
                    Message 9 of 16 , Feb 29, 2008
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                      Just thought I might ad a little something here......I would suggest keeping it simple at first, and perhaps opting for the more simple clothing of the lower classes,?rather that jumping right into Elizabethan and the like. I'm kind of jaded, but I'm a big fan of 14th century duds.??There is so much information available from extant finds and illuminations that patterns aren't terribly difficult to obtain......or, if you aren't into making things yourself, there are several good merchants that sell clothing and accessories from that time period.

                      Jantien de Groet



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Rebecca Klingbeil
                      I m kind of ... If you gentles will bear with me, can I side track this (now somewhat old) conversation to ask something? I am merchant and while I am in the
                      Message 10 of 16 , Mar 22, 2008
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                        I'm kind of
                        > jaded, but I'm a big fan of 14th century
                        > duds.??There is so much information available from
                        > extant finds and illuminations that patterns aren't
                        > terribly difficult to obtain......or, if you aren't
                        > into making things yourself, there are several good
                        > merchants that sell clothing and accessories from
                        > that time period.
                        >
                        > Jantien de Groet
                        >

                        If you gentles will bear with me, can I side track
                        this (now somewhat old) conversation to ask something?

                        I am merchant and while I am in the business of
                        selling things things to the SCA, it is not my only
                        reason for being in SCA. That said, I still need to
                        make a living. Which has to do with my question:

                        I had an idea for a product that is essentially a
                        research help - or at least, that is the concept. I
                        found myself wondering that since many of us use
                        period paintings and illuminations in our research,
                        would having a large number of such images in one
                        place be useful? For example, if you wanted to make
                        15th c. Italian shoes, would a collection of images
                        from the 15th c. that had accompanying text that let
                        you know which ones were from Italy so you could
                        easily view a large number of images by 15th c.
                        Italians showed shoes be useful?

                        In essence, it would be a series of CD-ROMs with
                        images that were sorted by what was shown in them
                        (men's clothing, women's clothing, jewelry, armor,
                        shoes, household goods, furniture, musical
                        instruments, etc.).

                        I want to do this project, because I think it would be
                        useful, but, it requires a monetary investment to
                        acquire the legal right to reproduce certain images.
                        So I would have to charge for the CDs because I simply
                        could not afford to create them otherwise. (Granted, I
                        would not charge a lot - maybe $4-$5 a CD-ROM).

                        I suppose why I am posting this is: Am I off base? Is
                        this a crazy idea or a truly useful one? Should I
                        scrap it now before I invest the time (to find,
                        categorize, and sort the images) and money to creat
                        these?

                        I'm asking this list because SCAdians like yourselves
                        would, frankly, be a target market for such an idea,
                        since it is aimed at helping the re-enactor visually
                        reverence period items.

                        Thanks for letting me ask this,
                        Leofwynn Marchaunt
                        (mka Rebecca Klingbeil)
                      • Ingvarr �rrabein
                        ... If you gentles will bear with me, can I side track this (now somewhat old) conversation to ask something? I m asking this list because SCAdians like
                        Message 11 of 16 , Mar 23, 2008
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                          -----Original Message-----

                          If you gentles will bear with me, can I side track
                          this (now somewhat old) conversation to ask something?

                          <snip>

                          I'm asking this list because SCAdians like yourselves
                          would, frankly, be a target market for such an idea,
                          since it is aimed at helping the re-enactor visually
                          reverence period items.

                          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

                          I think that you would have no problem selling them, especially at $5+/-
                          each. I would buy a few.

                          Ingvarr
                        • i_odlin
                          ... It would be very useful. It is also very, very unlikely -- sadly -- that it could be done. Copyright law is an ugly and dangerous subject, and I highly
                          Message 12 of 16 , Mar 23, 2008
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                            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Klingbeil
                            <bekkamom2001@...> wrote:
                            > I suppose why I am posting this is: Am I off base? Is
                            > this a crazy idea or a truly useful one? Should I
                            > scrap it now before I invest the time (to find,
                            > categorize, and sort the images) and money to creat
                            > these?

                            It would be very useful. It is also very, very unlikely -- sadly --
                            that it could be done.

                            Copyright law is an ugly and dangerous subject, and I highly suggest
                            you sit down with an international copyright specialist (or two)
                            before taking a single step further down this path.

                            Despite the original authors and artists being deceased for centuries
                            (or millennia), modern museums and trusts are mostly of the
                            opinion that if the item is in their possession, they have the
                            inalienable right to say how, when and if you can use depictions of
                            it. And, more to the heart of the matter, that they can charge you
                            for it. Often extravagantly.

                            Perhaps this will inspire me to finally write that book review of
                            "Medieval Building Techniques" by Gunther Binding; horribly and
                            fatally ham-strung by this very problem...

                            -Iain of Malagentia
                          • Michael Hurley
                            ... I would certainly be interested in something like this. Basically, it would be a visual encyclopedia of medieval goods. -- Auf wiedersehen! Michael
                            Message 13 of 16 , Mar 23, 2008
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                              >In essence, it would be a series of CD-ROMs with
                              >images that were sorted by what was shown in them
                              >(men's clothing, women's clothing, jewelry, armor,
                              >shoes, household goods, furniture, musical
                              >instruments, etc.).
                              >
                              >I'm asking this list because SCAdians like yourselves
                              >would, frankly, be a target market for such an idea,
                              >since it is aimed at helping the re-enactor visually
                              >reverence period items.

                              I would certainly be interested in something like this. Basically, it
                              would be a visual encyclopedia of medieval goods.
                              --
                              Auf wiedersehen!
                              Michael
                              ______________________________________________________
                              "..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."

                              "Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
                              of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
                              women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"

                              "..No."

                              "Why am I the only person that has that dream?"

                              -Real Genius
                            • julian wilson
                              Coming from a very isolated little Island where two SCAdian families are hoping to recruit and start a branch eventually, I d certainly be interested in buying
                              Message 14 of 16 , Mar 24, 2008
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                                Coming from a very isolated little Island where two SCAdian families are hoping to recruit and start a branch eventually, I'd certainly be interested in buying some.
                                Matthew Baker,
                                Ile d'Orgeuil,
                                Anglo-norman Isles,
                                Realm fo Drachenwald


                                --- On Sun, 23/3/08, Ingvarr �rrabein <orrabein@...> wrote:

                                > From: Ingvarr �rrabein <orrabein@...>
                                > Subject: RE: [Authentic_SCA] Research and paintings / illuminations [was: What do you consider essential?]
                                > To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
                                > Date: Sunday, 23 March, 2008, 9:44 PM
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                >
                                > If you gentles will bear with me, can I side track
                                > this (now somewhat old) conversation to ask something?
                                >
                                > <snip>
                                >
                                > I'm asking this list because SCAdians like
                                > yourselves
                                > would, frankly, be a target market for such an idea,
                                > since it is aimed at helping the re-enactor visually
                                > reverence period items.
                                >
                                > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
                                >
                                > I think that you would have no problem selling them,
                                > especially at $5+/-
                                > each. I would buy a few.
                                >
                                > Ingvarr
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > ----------------------------------------------------
                                > This is the Authentic SCA eGroupYahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • Rebecca Klingbeil
                                ... Actually, m lord, I am in discussions with a large organization that has fine art images available for licensing. Since many of the projects they provide
                                Message 15 of 16 , Mar 24, 2008
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                                  --- i_odlin <i_odlin@...> wrote:

                                  > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Rebecca
                                  > Klingbeil
                                  > <bekkamom2001@...> wrote:
                                  > > I suppose why I am posting this is: Am I off base?
                                  > Is
                                  > > this a crazy idea or a truly useful one? Should I
                                  > > scrap it now before I invest the time (to find,
                                  > > categorize, and sort the images) and money to
                                  > creat
                                  > > these?
                                  >
                                  > It would be very useful. It is also very, very
                                  > unlikely -- sadly --
                                  > that it could be done.
                                  >
                                  > Copyright law is an ugly and dangerous subject, and
                                  > I highly suggest
                                  > you sit down with an international copyright
                                  > specialist (or two)
                                  > before taking a single step further down this path.
                                  >
                                  > Despite the original authors and artists being
                                  > deceased for centuries
                                  > (or millennia), modern museums and trusts are mostly
                                  > of the
                                  > opinion that if the item is in their possession,
                                  > they have the
                                  > inalienable right to say how, when and if you can
                                  > use depictions of
                                  > it. And, more to the heart of the matter, that they
                                  > can charge you
                                  > for it. Often extravagantly.
                                  >
                                  > Perhaps this will inspire me to finally write that
                                  > book review of
                                  > "Medieval Building Techniques" by Gunther Binding;
                                  > horribly and
                                  > fatally ham-strung by this very problem...
                                  >
                                  > -Iain of Malagentia

                                  Actually, m'lord, I am in discussions with a large
                                  organization that has fine art images available for
                                  licensing. Since many of the projects they provide
                                  images for are educational, they are willing to give
                                  me a large number of image licenses for a lump sum. I
                                  AM following copyright law. I will likely contact
                                  specific museums if I need a specific image not
                                  available with the larger service I am currently
                                  dealing with.

                                  I am quite aware of copyright, and intend to make sure
                                  I pay for the rights. That the main reason why I
                                  cannot do this for free. While the image source I have
                                  is willing to cut me a price break because I am a
                                  small producer of a very limited run intended mostly
                                  for research and education, I do still have to pay for
                                  the right to use their images.

                                  Sincerely,
                                  Leofwynn Marchaunt
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