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Re: Elizabethan era bedding

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  • Labhaoise O'Beachain
    I supposed silk filled quilts would be too expensive for even a King in period? Labhaoise ... quilts, ... were often
    Message 1 of 23 , Jan 4, 2008
      I supposed silk filled quilts would be too expensive for even a King in
      period?
      Labhaoise
      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, kittencat3@... wrote:
      > Henry VIII's death inventory gives some clues. Linen or cotton
      quilts,
      > stuffed with wool, were used *on* the beds. Quilted silk coverlets
      were often
      > used as the topper. These were stuffed with cotton, oddly enough.
      >
      > Sarah Davies
    • borderlands15213
      I know Sarah can and will elucidate further on the subject of quilted bedding, since it s one of her areas of expertise, but I m going to jump in here, anyway.
      Message 2 of 23 , Jan 4, 2008
        I know Sarah can and will elucidate further on the subject of quilted
        bedding, since it's one of her areas of expertise, but I'm going to
        jump in here, anyway. In Henry VIII's time, *cotton* was rather
        expensive. Any common man might have wool bedding to warm his
        slumbers. Wool was produced in England and in many countries, but in
        England cotton had to be imported, I believe.
        And Henry doesn't seem to have been a man to be balked when it came to
        his personal comfort, pleasure, or splendor.

        Yseult the Gentle

        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Labhaoise O'Beachain"
        <labhaoise_obeachain@...> wrote:
        >
        > I supposed silk filled quilts would be too expensive for even a King in
        > period?
      • kittencat3@aol.com
        Silk was not used for quilt batting in period, and as far as I know, silk batts are modern (as in, within the last ten years or so). Japanese sashiko work
        Message 3 of 23 , Jan 4, 2008
          Silk was not used for quilt batting in period, and as far as I know, silk
          batts are modern (as in, within the last ten years or so). Japanese sashiko
          work (which is post-period) is stuffed exclusively with cotton, as are Turkish
          yorgan (heavily stuffed quilts), Turkish quilted coats, and all the surviving
          European bedquilts from the 14th, 15th, and 16th centuries.

          Sarah Davies, OL
          East



          **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • kittencat3@aol.com
          Yseult - you re absolutely right about Henry. Check out his death inventory for the shock of your life - he had EVERYTHING imaginable, including silver
          Message 4 of 23 , Jan 4, 2008
            Yseult - you're absolutely right about Henry. Check out his death inventory
            for the shock of your life - he had EVERYTHING imaginable, including silver
            knitting needles and two small linen quilts used as bathmats. It's almost
            terrifying to read.

            Sarah Davies



            **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Lorine Horvath
            Somehow I ve been fascinated by this thread, despite my usual interest falling 1000 years earlier. Are there any down-filled blankets? Really only cotton?
            Message 5 of 23 , Jan 4, 2008
              Somehow I've been fascinated by this thread, despite my usual interest
              falling 1000 years earlier. Are there any down-filled blankets? Really
              only cotton? No wool? Inquiring minds...

              Fina

              --
              Also? I can kill you with my brain.

              River
              Firefly


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • wodeford
              ... silk ... sashiko ... are Turkish ... surviving ... While this doesn t help in terms of English bedclothes, descriptions of padded silk robes are found
              Message 6 of 23 , Jan 4, 2008
                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, kittencat3@... wrote:
                >
                > Silk was not used for quilt batting in period, and as far as I know,
                silk
                > batts are modern (as in, within the last ten years or so). Japanese
                sashiko
                > work (which is post-period) is stuffed exclusively with cotton, as
                are Turkish
                > yorgan (heavily stuffed quilts), Turkish quilted coats, and all the
                surviving
                > European bedquilts from the 14th, 15th, and 16th centuries.

                While this doesn't help in terms of English bedclothes, descriptions
                of "padded" silk robes are found in the literature of Heian Japan
                (794-1185 CE). Mawata were made simply by stretching out a silk cocoon
                into a flat pad. Since these still had the gummy sericin in them, they
                could be laid between a lining and outer fabric for winter garments. I
                have not been able to find any description (admittedly in translations
                of documents into English from Japanese) of anything resembling
                quilting stitches to hold the mawata in place. Presumably the sericin
                was sufficient to do the job.

                Sashiko doesn't even begin as a quilting technique - it starts as
                darning: adding stitches to give strength to the work clothes of Edo
                period Japanese peasants. The quilted aspect evolves out of that.

                Saionji no Hanae
                West Kingdom
              • kittencat3@aol.com
                No down comforters as we know them, although there s the equivalent of a bed-in-a-bag (actually, several quilts plus a red cotton travel bag for carrying them
                Message 7 of 23 , Jan 5, 2008
                  No down comforters as we know them, although there's the equivalent of a
                  bed-in-a-bag (actually, several quilts plus a red cotton travel bag for carrying
                  them in for the "The Bedde of Allensown" (bed of Alencon). There were over
                  sixty linen quilts, all stuffed with wool, and about thirty silk quilts, all
                  stuffed with cotton.

                  An essay about the quilts (especially one I believe was originally Catherine
                  of Aragon's wedding quilt) will be in the forthcoming volume of Medieval
                  Clothing and Textiles, published in April. I just mailed off the galley proofs
                  on Monday...:)

                  Sarah Davies



                  **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
                  http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • kittencat3@aol.com
                  That sounds fascinating! Can you point out any books that describe this? Someone on the Quilt History List was interested in silk batting a while back and
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jan 5, 2008
                    That sounds fascinating! Can you point out any books that describe this?
                    Someone on the Quilt History List was interested in silk batting a while back
                    and will be very interested.

                    Also, how common was yosegire work? I know about the 16th century kimono
                    and would love to know more.

                    Sarah Davies



                    **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • wodeford
                    ... this? Sorry, I m about to dash out the door to Twelfth Night and I ll have to try to remember which diaries it s mentioned in. ... Pieced garments? It
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jan 5, 2008
                      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, kittencat3@... wrote:
                      >
                      > That sounds fascinating! Can you point out any books that describe
                      this?

                      Sorry, I'm about to dash out the door to Twelfth Night and I'll have
                      to try to remember which diaries it's mentioned in.

                      > Also, how common was yosegire work?

                      Pieced garments? It starts with kesa, a sort of shawl worn by Buddhist
                      monks. Originally as a sign of their poverty, these were pieced
                      together from rags and sewn into a mantle big enough for the mendicant
                      to wear. As time went on, these "rags" were often the finery of the
                      deceased, donated to the monks. Some kesa of this sort are quite opulent.

                      Again, I'll have to get back to you with more, but Seiroku Noma's
                      Japanese Costume and Textile Arts has there's a good discussion of
                      when and why piecing becomes fashionable in the 16th century. I have a
                      few examples on my web page (scroll down, they're toward the bottom):
                      http://www.wodefordhall.com/kosode.htm

                      Saionji no Hanae
                      West
                    • i_odlin
                      ... A word of caution on research in this subject: Throughout much of period, the word cotton meant fluffy wool. As with corn or scarlet, this can
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jan 5, 2008
                        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "borderlands15213"
                        <borderlands15213@...> wrote:
                        > In Henry VIII's time, *cotton* was rather expensive. Any common man
                        > might have wool bedding to warm his slumbers.

                        A word of caution on research in this subject:

                        Throughout much of period, the word "cotton" meant 'fluffy wool.'

                        As with 'corn' or 'scarlet,' this can cause a bit of confusion if you
                        are careless or simply didn't know.

                        [This is not meant to imply that I think anyone in the thread thus far
                        has got it wrong. It is simply and only meant as an FYI for anyone who
                        might not already know. C'd my A enough yet? :) ]

                        -Iain of Malagentia
                      • Labhaoise O'Beachain
                        (MODERATOR NOTE: please sign all posts to this list. Thank you, Despina) ... Corn means simply grain.... but scarlet???
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jan 5, 2008
                          (MODERATOR NOTE: please sign all posts to this list. Thank you, Despina)

                          > As with 'corn' or 'scarlet,' this can cause a bit of confusion if you
                          > are careless or simply didn't know. *SNIP*

                          Corn means simply grain.... but scarlet???
                        • kittencat3@aol.com
                          The context of the entries in the death inventory made it very clear that the silk quilts were stuffed with cotton, not wool. Also, *every* surviving quilt
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jan 5, 2008
                            The context of the entries in the death inventory made it very clear that
                            the silk quilts were stuffed with cotton, not wool. Also, *every* surviving
                            quilt from prior to 1700, without exception, is stuffed with cotton batting. I
                            think it's pretty safe to say that in this case, cotton was cotton and not
                            wool. :D

                            Sarah Davies



                            **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
                            http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • kittencat3@aol.com
                            **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 [Non-text portions
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jan 5, 2008
                              **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
                              http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • kittencat3@aol.com
                              Scarlet originally meant a particular grade of fine wool cloth. It was often dyed with expensive cochineal or madder reds, so the name of the cloth
                              Message 14 of 23 , Jan 5, 2008
                                "Scarlet" originally meant a particular grade of fine wool cloth. It was
                                often dyed with expensive cochineal or madder reds, so the name of the cloth
                                gradually transferred to the color.

                                Sarah Davies



                                **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
                                http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Labhaoise O'Beachain
                                Some things NEVER change... LOL It makes sense tho, you wouldn t waste expensive or complex dying processes on cheap or poor wearing cloth. And you might even
                                Message 15 of 23 , Jan 6, 2008
                                  Some things NEVER change...
                                  LOL

                                  It makes sense tho, you wouldn't waste expensive or complex dying
                                  processes on cheap or poor wearing cloth. And you might even
                                  (personnally or culturally) choose to use the rare/expensive dyes to
                                  accent and display your ownership of this fine wool cloth
                                  Labhaoise(who often asks why)


                                  kittencat3@... wrote:
                                  > "Scarlet" originally meant a particular grade of fine wool cloth.
                                  It was
                                  > often dyed with expensive cochineal or madder reds, so the name of
                                  the cloth
                                  > gradually transferred to the color.
                                  >
                                  > Sarah Davies
                                • sue_clemenger
                                  ... you ... Yup. Scarlet refers to some specific kinds of wool cloth, and not just the color that we associate with the word. --Maire
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Jan 6, 2008
                                    --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Labhaoise O'Beachain"
                                    <labhaoise_obeachain@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > As with 'corn' or 'scarlet,' this can cause a bit of confusion if
                                    you
                                    > > are careless or simply didn't know. *SNIP*
                                    >
                                    > Corn means simply grain.... but scarlet???
                                    >

                                    Yup. "Scarlet" refers to some specific kinds of wool cloth, and not
                                    just the color that we associate with the word.
                                    --Maire
                                  • kittencat3@aol.com
                                    Conspicuous consumption has always been with us. Henry s death inventory includes a note of a patchwork quilt of orange and purple, almost certainly as a
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Jan 6, 2008
                                      Conspicuous consumption has always been with us. Henry's death inventory
                                      includes a note of a patchwork quilt of orange and purple, almost certainly as
                                      a means of showing that he was rich enough to afford these colors.

                                      Sarah



                                      **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
                                      http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Chris Laning
                                      ... Documents describing such things as a green scarlet are certainly a clue here :) ____________________________________________________________ O (Dame)
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Jan 14, 2008
                                        On Jan 6, 2008, at 7:42 AM, sue_clemenger wrote:

                                        > Yup. "Scarlet" refers to some specific kinds of wool cloth, and not
                                        > just the color that we associate with the word.
                                        > --Maire


                                        Documents describing such things as "a green scarlet" are certainly a
                                        clue here :)
                                        ____________________________________________________________

                                        O (Dame) Christian de Holacombe, OL - Shire of Windy Meads
                                        + Kingdom of the West - Chris Laning <claning@...>
                                        http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com
                                        ____________________________________________________________
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