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Wedding and Engagement Rings

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  • Sarah
    For curiosities sake were there any symbols that declared one as wed or unwed? I know in some cultures for women at least it was how their hair was worn but
    Message 1 of 19 , Nov 26, 2007
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      For curiosities sake were there any symbols that declared one as wed
      or unwed? I know in some cultures for women at least it was how their
      hair was worn but what about for men? Was there any such existance of
      period wedding rings or engagement rings? I have read that wedding
      rings for women were originally worn by roman women more as a sign of
      possesion (them being owned) than as a sign of commitment but that the
      idea faded out and nobody wore wedding rings up until the Victorians
      popularized it with women but that men did not start wearing wedding
      rings until WWI. Is that an accurate statement? I don't really need
      the whole history of the wedding customs/symbols/I can't find the word
      I'm looking for lol just for SCA time period.

      Thanks, Sarah
    • John Groseclose
      ... In which part of the world? It would be helpful to narrow the search as far as possible. Iain -- Inter spem curamque, timores inter et iras Omnem crede
      Message 2 of 19 , Nov 26, 2007
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        At 1:45 PM +0000 11/26/07, Sarah wrote:

        >I don't really need
        >the whole history of the wedding customs/symbols/I can't find the word
        >I'm looking for lol just for SCA time period.
        >
        >Thanks, Sarah

        In which part of the world? It would be helpful to narrow the search
        as far as possible.

        Iain
        --
        Inter spem curamque, timores inter et iras
        Omnem crede diem tibi diluxisse supremum:
        Grata supervenient, quae non sperabitur hora.
        De inimico non loquaris sed cogites
        Spam Delenda Est
      • Sarah Stovall
        RE: In which part of the world? Well really mostly interested in what would be modern western Europe. Great Britain, France, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Germany
        Message 3 of 19 , Nov 26, 2007
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          RE: In which part of the world?



          Well really mostly interested in what would be modern western Europe. Great Britain, France, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Germany mostly. Particularly what would be modern day Great Britain and France as those are the areas I'm primarily interested in. Regards, Sarah









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        • Beth and Bob Matney
          There is an incredible collection of rings at the Ashmolean Museum in Oxford (UK). They had Italian betrothal rings back to the 15th C as well as Jewish
          Message 4 of 19 , Nov 26, 2007
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            There is an incredible collection of rings at the Ashmolean Museum in
            Oxford (UK). They had Italian betrothal rings back to the 15th C as
            well as Jewish ceremonial wedding rings (also back to 15th C) on
            display, but there are published catalogues that your inter-library
            loan Librarian should be able to find or you could send a note to
            them.. they are quite helpful.

            Beth
          • Sandra Dodd
            I went looking for images of the Ashmolean rings and found a tile page! http://tileweb.ashmolean.org/ The only rings images I found were things for sale in
            Message 5 of 19 , Nov 26, 2007
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              I went looking for images of the Ashmolean rings and found a tile
              page! http://tileweb.ashmolean.org/

              The only rings images I found were things for sale in the gift shop,
              but still, the site is fun!
              http://www.ashmolean.org/collections/?type=highlights

              I poked around a while looking for images of period rings, without
              success.

              Found another cool thing, a combination of heraldy, theology and art:
              http://www.answers.com/topic/shield-of-the-trinity

              Sorry I can't help with the wedding ring question, but the Ashmolean
              museum clue is yielding lots of side fun.

              AElflaed of Duckford
            • julian wilson
              Sandra, what a wonderful Link you have given us. The Tile Web will be of very great value to those of use wanting to create medieval or gothick style
              Message 6 of 19 , Nov 26, 2007
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                Sandra,
                what a wonderful Link you have given us.
                The Tile Web will be of very great value to those of use wanting to create medieval or "gothick" style floorcloths for our medieval tents

                in humble Service to Drachenwald and to The Light,
                Matthew Baker,
                dwelling in "old" Jersey, in the Anglo-Norman isles

                Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
                I went looking for images of the Ashmolean rings and found a tile
                page! http://tileweb.ashmolean.org/

                The only rings images I found were things for sale in the gift shop,
                but still, the site is fun!
                http://www.ashmolean.org/collections/?type=highlights

                I poked around a while looking for images of period rings, without
                success.

                Found another cool thing, a combination of heraldy, theology and art:
                http://www.answers.com/topic/shield-of-the-trinity

                Sorry I can't help with the wedding ring question, but the Ashmolean
                museum clue is yielding lots of side fun.

                AElflaed of Duckford





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              • Beth and Bob Matney
                I can send you a photo of some of the rings, but the photo is very large (hi-res). Beth
                Message 7 of 19 , Nov 26, 2007
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                  I can send you a photo of some of the rings, but the photo is very
                  large (hi-res).

                  Beth

                  At 10:47 AM 11/26/2007, you wrote:
                  >I went looking for images of the Ashmolean rings and found a tile
                  >page! http://tileweb.ashmolean.org/
                  >
                  >The only rings images I found were things for sale in the gift shop,
                  >but still, the site is fun!
                  >http://www.ashmolean.org/collections/?type=highlights
                  >
                  >I poked around a while looking for images of period rings, without
                  >success.
                  >
                  >Found another cool thing, a combination of heraldy, theology and art:
                  >http://www.answers.com/topic/shield-of-the-trinity
                  >
                  >Sorry I can't help with the wedding ring question, but the Ashmolean
                  >museum clue is yielding lots of side fun.
                  >
                  >AElflaed of Duckford
                • Beth and Bob Matney
                  So sorry about the top post (senor moment). I can send you a photo of some of the rings, but the photo is very large (hi-res). Beth
                  Message 8 of 19 , Nov 26, 2007
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                    So sorry about the top post (senor moment).

                    I can send you a photo of some of the rings, but the photo is very
                    large (hi-res).

                    Beth
                  • Sandra Dodd
                    -=I can send you a photo of some of the rings, but the photo is very large (hi-res).-=- Thanks, but I was hoping more to be able to bring a link for the
                    Message 9 of 19 , Nov 26, 2007
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                      -=I can send you a photo of some of the rings, but the photo is very
                      large (hi-res).-=-

                      Thanks, but I was hoping more to be able to bring a link for the
                      benefit of the person who first inquired.

                      AElflaed

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • wodeford
                      ... Try A History of Private Life by Phillippe Ariès, Georges Duby, and Arthur Goldhammer. Volume 2 is specific to the Middle Ages. (Sadly, mine is in an
                      Message 10 of 19 , Nov 26, 2007
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                        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Sarah" <thswildcats@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > For curiosities sake were there any symbols that declared one as wed
                        > or unwed?

                        Try "A History of Private Life" by Phillippe Ariès, Georges Duby, and
                        Arthur Goldhammer. Volume 2 is specific to the Middle Ages. (Sadly,
                        mine is in an attic on the other side of the continent!)

                        Jehanne de Wodeford
                        West Kingdom
                      • Chris Laning
                        Well, I have one data point, FWIW: Queen Mary Tudor had a wedding ring when she was married to Philip II of Spain. That s mid-1500s. I *think* I remember that
                        Message 11 of 19 , Nov 26, 2007
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                          Well, I have one data point, FWIW: Queen Mary Tudor had a wedding
                          ring when she was married to Philip II of Spain. That's mid-1500s. I
                          *think* I remember that it was a plain gold band, and something is
                          teasing the back of my brain that she wanted one specifically because
                          it was traditional. Now I have to figure out where on earth I would
                          have seen that.

                          (I have a mind like a lint trap: lots of interesting fluff, no idea
                          where any of it came from.... :)
                          ____________________________________________________________

                          O (Dame) Christian de Holacombe, OL - Shire of Windy Meads
                          + Kingdom of the West - Chris Laning <claning@...>
                          http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com
                          ____________________________________________________________
                        • Sharon L. Krossa
                          ... No, that s not all that accurate. This is a summary of what I found for Scotland (taken from an email I sent to someone a while ago): Just as modernly,
                          Message 12 of 19 , Nov 26, 2007
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                            At 1:45 PM +0000 11/26/07, Sarah wrote:
                            >Was there any such existance of
                            >period wedding rings or engagement rings? I have read that wedding
                            >rings for women were originally worn by roman women more as a sign of
                            >possesion (them being owned) than as a sign of commitment but that the
                            >idea faded out and nobody wore wedding rings up until the Victorians
                            >popularized it with women but that men did not start wearing wedding
                            >rings until WWI. Is that an accurate statement?

                            No, that's not all that accurate. This is a summary of what I found
                            for Scotland (taken from an email I sent to someone a while ago):

                            Just as modernly, often the bride was given a "spousing
                            ring". Sometimes this was given during the betrothal ceremony rather
                            than the wedding, sometimes as part of the marriage ceremony. (The term
                            "spousing ring" is ambiguous, and so the term itself doesn't indicate
                            when it was given.)

                            It seems that at least in the late Middle Ages, men also were given
                            spousing rings by their brides, but apparently not during the marriage
                            ceremony itself.

                            For more info on historical Scottish wedding rings (including photos),
                            see:

                            Marshall, Rosaline K. "The Wearing of Wedding Rings in Scotland." Review
                            of Scottish Culture 2: 1-12.

                            I believe that rings were used in some way in other cultures as well,
                            though I don't know the details offhand (nor do I have handy
                            references to paste!)

                            Affrick
                            --
                            Sharon Krossa, PhD - skrossa-yg@...
                            Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
                            Medieval Scotland - http://MedievalScotland.org/
                            Shopping Online? Help support! - http://MedievalScotland.org/patron/
                            The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
                            The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/
                          • Karen
                            Chaucer refers to rings seven times in The Canterbury Tales. (See http://www.larsdatter.com/chaucer.htm for these and other references to clothing and
                            Message 13 of 19 , Nov 27, 2007
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                              Chaucer refers to rings seven times in "The Canterbury Tales." (See http://www.larsdatter.com/chaucer.htm for these and other references to clothing and accessories in "The Canterbury Tales.") Of those references, three refer to weddings:
                              - To folk that han ywedded hem with rynges (The Man of Law's Tale, 712)
                              - This markys hath hir spoused with a ryng / Broght for the same cause (The Clerk's Tale, 386-387)
                              - And eek my weddyng ryng for everemore. (The Clerk's Tale, 868)
                              Two of the other references are to magic or legendary rings (The Squire's Tale, 146-155 and 242-244), and the two others are fairly generic references.

                              Some wedding rings made in Italy and worn by Jews in Amsterdam:
                              http://www.insecula.com/oeuvre/O0023595.html
                              http://www.insecula.com/oeuvre/O0023596.html
                              http://www.insecula.com/oeuvre/O0023597.html
                              http://www.insecula.com/oeuvre/O0023598.html

                              See http://www.larsdatter.com/rings.htm for more images of rings from the 6th-16th centuries,

                              Karen
                            • quokkaqueen
                              ... ... While in a library today, I found a big book that might be helpful: Diana Scarisbrick Rings: Symbols of wealth, power and affection (London:
                              Message 14 of 19 , Dec 3, 2007
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                                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Sarah" <thswildcats@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > For curiosities sake were there any symbols that declared one as wed
                                > or unwed?

                                <<snip>>
                                > Thanks, Sarah
                                >

                                While in a library today, I found a big book that might be helpful:
                                Diana Scarisbrick "Rings: Symbols of wealth, power and affection"
                                (London: Thames & Hudson, 1993) ISBN: 0-8109-3775-1


                                It mentions rings being worn by nuns as a symbol of their marriage to
                                Jesus, as well as rings being worn by widows.
                                I didn't have much loose change on me, so I didn't get to photocopy
                                everything I wanted to, but I copied some of the more interesting parts.

                                p.49-50 Mentions diamond rings.

                                "In 1518 when the infant Mary Tudor, daughter of Henry VIII, was
                                married by proxy to the baby Dauphin of France, Cardinal Wolsey, who
                                was officiating, put a diamond ring on her finger. This contract being
                                annulled, she was again betrothed, at the age of six, in 1522 to her
                                cousin... Emporer Charles V who sent her a ring with a diamond....
                                Another diamond ring was used at the marriage of Marguerite of
                                Angouleme to Henry II of Navarre in 1527 was explained by Typotius:
                                the round hoop signifying eternity and the diamond bezel signifying
                                glory represented a king and queen bound together by everlasting love."

                                There is a little bit more information about diamond wedding rings in
                                George E. Harlow "The Nature of Diamonds" (Cambridge University Press,
                                1998) ISBN: 0521629357
                                Online:
                                http://books.google.com/books?id=VO_dDD0mWmMC&pg=PA164&lpg=PA164&dq=typotius+wedding+ring&source=web&ots=UQk-EuIvfm&sig=zsGHgi9xSCaYawkDTxsG2YJ_tTA
                                or http://snipurl.com/1ulnu

                                Another style of ring is the Gimmel ring, which is sort of like a
                                puzzle ring, with two or more rings attached together to make one big
                                ring.
                                http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/history/material_culture/plasket/meth.html

                                There is also a book co-authored by Scarisbrick about the rings at the
                                Ashmolean museum, "Finger Rings"
                                Google books version with colour pictures:
                                http://books.google.com/books?id=3HFEeYhdRmoC&pg=PA48&lpg=PA48&dq=renaissance+fede+ring&source=web&ots=Eoe4ba3uYQ&sig=EufHW596l2r8PjavzC32FxnXN1M#PPA48,M1
                                or
                                http://snipurl.com/1uloi

                                Some photos of wedding rings:
                                Byzantine
                                http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Wedding_ring_Louvre_AC924.jpg
                                Jewish betrothal ring?
                                http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Jewish_wedding_ring_MNMA_Cl20658.jpg
                                Posy rings at Oxford:
                                http://www.flickr.com/photos/stuartyeates/54892553/in/set-72057594075223093/
                                Pairs of 15th century posy rings:
                                http://www.24hourmuseum.org.uk/nwh_gfx_en/ART26227.html
                                A Fede (hand-clasp design) ring from Italy:
                                http://www.vam.ac.uk/vastatic/microsites/1487_renaissance/qtvr_fede.html

                                It seems that wedding and betrothal rings were used as a sign of
                                relationship status, which I thought became quite clear when looking
                                at the rings worn by nuns as 'brides of Christ' and widows, I just
                                wish I had photocopied that page so I could give you a better
                                reference. Also, the sort of lovey-dovey messages on the rings might
                                indicate that the rings are symbols of affection and love rather than
                                ownership. Or it's a way of showing how hip you were when it came to
                                your credentials in courtly love.

                                Hope the information helps,
                                ~Asfridhr
                              • Sarah Stovall
                                From: quokkaqueen To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2007 12:39:01 AM Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Wedding
                                Message 15 of 19 , Dec 4, 2007
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                                  From: quokkaqueen <quokkaqueen@...>
                                  To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2007 12:39:01 AM
                                  Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Wedding and Engagement Rings
                                  <snip>

                                  Hope the information helps,

                                  ~Asfridhr



                                  Thanks for all the resources that was extremely helpful!!! I'll definitely look up the books. I don't think our local library has them but I might be able to get them on interlibrary loan. Thanks again, Sarah













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                                • Michael Hurley
                                  ... I d be interested in a copy of that photo if you d still care to send it. My fiancee and I are getting married in a somewhat medieval ceremony next fall.
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Dec 6, 2007
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                                    At 12:32 PM -0600 on 11/26/07, Beth and Bob Matney wrote:

                                    >So sorry about the top post (senor moment).
                                    >
                                    >I can send you a photo of some of the rings, but the photo is very
                                    >large (hi-res).

                                    I'd be interested in a copy of that photo if you'd still care to send
                                    it. My fiancee and I are getting married in a somewhat medieval
                                    ceremony next fall.
                                    --
                                    Auf wiedersehen!
                                    Michael
                                    ______________________________________________________
                                    "..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."

                                    "Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
                                    of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
                                    women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"

                                    "..No."

                                    "Why am I the only person that has that dream?"

                                    -Real Genius
                                  • Beth and Bob Matney
                                    Hi Michael Sure. I ll be glad to send you a copy. I ll break it up in several pieces so that each is not so large. (We use a 12.8Mp camera). As someone posted
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Dec 7, 2007
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                                      Hi Michael

                                      Sure. I'll be glad to send you a copy. I'll break it up in several
                                      pieces so that each is not so large. (We use a 12.8Mp camera). As
                                      someone posted later in the thread, there is a book that you can ILL as well.

                                      Take care,
                                      Beth

                                      At 07:27 PM 12/6/2007, you wrote:
                                      >At 12:32 PM -0600 on 11/26/07, Beth and Bob Matney wrote:
                                      >
                                      > >So sorry about the top post (senor moment).
                                      > >
                                      > >I can send you a photo of some of the rings, but the photo is very
                                      > >large (hi-res).
                                      >
                                      >I'd be interested in a copy of that photo if you'd still care to send
                                      >it. My fiancee and I are getting married in a somewhat medieval
                                      >ceremony next fall.
                                      >--
                                      > Auf wiedersehen!
                                      > Michael
                                    • Michael Hurley
                                      ... Thanks for them muchly. They ll be quite handy. -- Auf wiedersehen! Michael ______________________________________________________ ..Um..Something strange
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Dec 7, 2007
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                                        At 6:15 AM -0600 on 12/7/07, Beth and Bob Matney wrote:

                                        >Hi Michael
                                        >
                                        >Sure. I'll be glad to send you a copy. I'll break it up in several
                                        >pieces so that each is not so large. (We use a 12.8Mp camera). As
                                        >someone posted later in the thread, there is a book that you can ILL as well.

                                        Thanks for them muchly. They'll be quite handy.
                                        --
                                        Auf wiedersehen!
                                        Michael
                                        ______________________________________________________
                                        "..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."

                                        "Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
                                        of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
                                        women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"

                                        "..No."

                                        "Why am I the only person that has that dream?"

                                        -Real Genius
                                      • balanttina
                                        hello! I found an interesting document among my collection that mentiones what we would call an engagement ring. it dates to February 17, 1476 and was issued
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Dec 9, 2007
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                                          hello!

                                          I found an interesting document among my 'collection' that mentiones
                                          what we would call an engagement ring. it dates to February 17, 1476
                                          and was issued in a village of Vesina, in the parish of Jugo, in the
                                          bishopric of Trident, in the castle of Henry (in present-day Carinthia
                                          in Austria, I think)

                                          my loose translation is as folows:

                                          'Odorik, sun of William of Brezio, an imperial public notary in
                                          Trident, makes a nuptial contract for Paul, sun of the late John
                                          Alouisia of Petra plana near Trident, and a bride Dorothea, dauther of
                                          Henry de Jugo. Before the notary, bride and groom have declared to wed
                                          each other, and the groom has put on a bride's finger a golden ring as
                                          a sign of true and valid matrimony. The father gave the bride a dowry
                                          of 500 florins, the groom gave her 'jutrna' (husband's present to his
                                          wife on the morning after the first night spent together, the morning
                                          after the wedding) of 150 florins.'


                                          lp, celestina
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