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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Remember, remember the Fifth of November

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  • Amy Heilveil
    ... If it s period and appropriate for the date, yes I would. This is not a religious list, this is a list dedicated to authenticity in the SCA and history.
    Message 1 of 21 , Nov 6, 2007
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      > Um... some members of this list are Catholic...
      >
      > Would you presume to post anti-Muslim poetry on the anniversary of the Battle of Tours?

      If it's period and appropriate for the date, yes I would. This is not
      a religious list, this is a list dedicated to authenticity in the SCA
      and history.

      Cu respectivo,

      Despina de la I'd also (were the poetry period) post anti-English
      poetry on the anniversary of Agincourt, and anti-Spanish poetry on the
      anniversary of the English defeat of the Spanish Armada despite there
      being English, French, and Spanish people and persona on this list
    • cathal@mindspring.com
      ... Then there is thought that in the narrowest consideration Msr. Fawkes is not period for the SCA. 1605 is not pre-17th century...(and, yes, I do hear the
      Message 2 of 21 , Nov 6, 2007
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        >
        >> Um... some members of this list are Catholic...
        >>
        >> Would you presume to post anti-Muslim poetry on the anniversary of the Battle of Tours?
        >
        >If it's period and appropriate for the date, yes I would. This is not
        >a religious list, this is a list dedicated to authenticity in the SCA
        >and history.
        >
        >Cu respectivo,
        >
        >Despina de la I'd also (were the poetry period) post anti-English
        >poetry on the anniversary of Agincourt, and anti-Spanish poetry on the
        >anniversary of the English defeat of the Spanish Armada despite there
        >being English, French, and Spanish people and persona on this list

        Then there is thought that in the narrowest consideration Msr. Fawkes is not 'period' for the SCA. 1605 is not pre-17th century...(and, yes, I do hear the rustling of ruffs and piquing of periwigs among the cavaliers in the attic...). But other than in the matter of chronological application, I must agree with Dispnia.

        Cathal.

        >
      • Sandra Dodd
        -=-Um... some members of this list are Catholic... -=-Would you presume to post anti-Muslim poetry on the anniversary of the Battle of Tours?-=- Assuming the
        Message 3 of 21 , Nov 6, 2007
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          -=-Um... some members of this list are Catholic...

          -=-Would you presume to post anti-Muslim poetry on the anniversary of
          the Battle of Tours?-=-

          Assuming the world is represented in sub-sets of the world, should we
          totally sanitize everything to avoid the possibility of offending
          anyone? Should we not even talk about battles when religion was
          involved?

          That doesn't seem to be a good stance for people sharing an interest
          in history.

          AElflaed of Duckford
          Outlands

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • cathal@mindspring.com
          ... Indeed not. Why that could even lead to the separation of the association between Stag s blood and Duke Trelon...;-} Cathal.
          Message 4 of 21 , Nov 6, 2007
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            >Assuming the world is represented in sub-sets of the world, should we
            >totally sanitize everything to avoid the possibility of offending
            >anyone? Should we not even talk about battles when religion was
            >involved?
            >
            >That doesn't seem to be a good stance for people sharing an interest
            >in history.

            Indeed not. Why that could even lead to the separation of the association between 'Stag's blood' and Duke Trelon...;-}

            Cathal.
          • kazoshea@aol.com
            Then there is thought that in the narrowest consideration Msr. Fawkes is not period for the SCA. 1605 is not pre-17th century...(and, yes, I do hear the
            Message 5 of 21 , Nov 6, 2007
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              Then there is thought that in the narrowest consideration Msr. Fawkes is not
              'period' for the SCA. 1605 is not pre-17th century...(and, yes, I do hear the
              rustling of ruffs and piquing of periwigs among the cavaliers in the attic...).
              But other than in the matter of chronological application, I must agree with
              Dispnia.

              Cathal.

              Not quite true actually,Guy Fawkes was born in 1570 and had lived most of his life in the SCA time period. His involvement with individuals that precipitated the gunpowder plot also occurred within the SCA timeframe.? The end result of it, the attempt to blow up James I and parliament does not occur in the timeframe. However all the politics from the Church of Rome and their plots to end protestant rule in England all date from within the SCA timeframe.

              Iago



              ________________________________________________________________________
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            • Sandra Dodd
              -=-Why that could even lead to the separation of the association between Stag s blood and Duke Trelon...;-}-=- Neither one of those is my religion. I see the
              Message 6 of 21 , Nov 6, 2007
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                -=-Why that could even lead to the separation of the association
                between 'Stag's blood' and Duke Trelon...;-}-=-

                Neither one of those is my religion.


                I see the smiley, but if there's an association, it must be somewhere
                outside the Outlands. I probably wouldn't have said a thing if the
                order hadn't been instituted during Gunwaldt's first reign as king (I
                was queen) and if I hadn't asked Artan (the premier Stag's Blood) if
                he knew a Trelon story I didn't know.

                I suppose it might've been just a stage-prop example.

                If someone's told you a story that's not true, though, that DOES kind
                of touch on my religion.

                AElflaed
                Outlands

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              • Cathal
                ... No argument on any of those points. However his incendiary act was outside the frame and that is what the day remembers. Cathal.
                Message 7 of 21 , Nov 6, 2007
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                  >
                  > Not quite true actually,Guy Fawkes was born in 1570 and had lived most of
                  > his life in the SCA time period. His involvement with individuals that
                  > precipitated the gunpowder plot also occurred within the SCA timeframe.?
                  > The end result of it, the attempt to blow up James I and parliament does
                  > not occur in the timeframe. However all the politics from the Church of
                  > Rome and their plots to end protestant rule in England all date from
                  > within the SCA timeframe.
                  >
                  > Iago
                  >
                  No argument on any of those points. However his incendiary act was outside
                  the frame and that is what the day remembers.

                  Cathal.
                • Cathal
                  ... As I recall Stag s Blood was/is one of the Outlandish battle slogans. The association dates from some of the battles twixt Atenveldt and the Outlands.
                  Message 8 of 21 , Nov 6, 2007
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                    >
                    > If someone's told you a story that's not true, though, that DOES kind
                    > of touch on my religion.
                    >
                    > AElflaed
                    > Outlands

                    As I recall 'Stag's Blood' was/is one of the Outlandish battle slogans. The
                    association dates from some of the battles twixt Atenveldt and the Outlands.
                    There is even a song of the same name that mentions the Treeish Duke.

                    Cathal.
                  • Carrie Barnes
                    Um... some members of this list are Catholic... Would you presume to post anti-Muslim poetry on the anniversary of the Battle of Tours? Ceindrych merch
                    Message 9 of 21 , Nov 7, 2007
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                      "Um... some members of this list are Catholic...

                      Would you presume to post anti-Muslim poetry on the anniversary of the Battle of Tours?"

                      Ceindrych merch Riacat
                      Wales, 607 AD
                      ~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~
                      Chatelaine
                      Shire of Drakelaw
                      Middle Kingdom
                      2007 AD

                      Well some of us are Catholic (and as one who is very active in Church activities) I am neither offended nor upset by placing the poem here. As a matter of fact would you like to recount the attrocities that were commited in the name of the church. Don't try to sanitize history, the Catholic church did some horrible things in the name of politics.

                      Lady Grainne mhic Niell
                      Trimaris

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • mgpig@aug.com
                      ... As a Catholic, I was not offended - the poem was posted in the context of the historical event under discussion, and as such, reflected sentiments of the
                      Message 10 of 21 , Nov 7, 2007
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                        Quoting the list:

                        > -=-Um... some members of this list are Catholic...
                        >
                        > -=-Would you presume to post anti-Muslim poetry on the anniversary of
                        > the Battle of Tours?-=-
                        >
                        > Assuming the world is represented in sub-sets of the world, should we
                        > totally sanitize everything to avoid the possibility of offending
                        > anyone? Should we not even talk about battles when religion was
                        > involved?
                        >
                        > That doesn't seem to be a good stance for people sharing an interest
                        > in history.


                        As a Catholic, I was not offended - the poem was posted in the context of the
                        historical event under discussion, and as such, reflected sentiments of the
                        time. Why take offense when none was intended?

                        Marie
                        Trimaris
                      • sparklingeyes1974@yahoo.com
                        I wasn t offended .... An I m pagan. I thought it was a wonderful poem. I was also not offended either. Besides I must have missed the orginal message didn t
                        Message 11 of 21 , Nov 7, 2007
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                          I wasn't offended .... An I'm pagan. I thought it was a wonderful poem. I was also not offended either. Besides I must have missed the orginal message didn't even know about the battle.

                          Lady Elizabeth
                          Outlands
                          Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
                        • gedney@OPTONLINE.NET
                          ... Wasn t a battle. It was an attempt by Catholic insurgents to blow up and overthrow the very Protestant government of England. Google the Gunpowder Plot
                          Message 12 of 21 , Nov 7, 2007
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                            > I wasn't offended .... An I'm pagan. I thought it was a
                            > wonderful poem. I was also not offended either. Besides I must
                            > have missed the orginal message didn't even know about the
                            > battle.

                            Wasn't a battle.
                            It was an attempt by Catholic insurgents to blow up and overthrow the very Protestant government of England.
                            Google "the Gunpowder Plot" to find out more.

                            Capt Elias


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • cathal@mindspring.com
                            ... It was then one of those occasions in history that the judgement of he blew it would have been correct in either success or failure? Cathal.
                            Message 13 of 21 , Nov 7, 2007
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                              >
                              >Wasn't a battle.
                              >It was an attempt by Catholic insurgents to blow up and overthrow the very Protestant government of England.
                              >Google "the Gunpowder Plot" to find out more.
                              >
                              >Capt Elias
                              >
                              It was then one of those occasions in history that the judgement of 'he blew it' would have been correct in either success or failure?

                              Cathal.
                            • Roz Corwin
                              (MODERATOR NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT TOP-POST TO THIS LIST. THANK YOU) I would wager a guess that the demand for Politically Correct commentary is decidedly
                              Message 14 of 21 , Nov 8, 2007
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                                (MODERATOR NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT TOP-POST TO THIS LIST. THANK YOU)

                                I would wager a guess that the demand for Politically Correct
                                commentary is decidedly post-period.

                                The denial of events or opinions that are counter to our own beliefs
                                merely due to their status as "other" can be a very dangerous
                                behavior. "I don't like it; therefore I don't want you to remind me
                                of it," is a very risky attitude to take, especially when one is
                                dealing with historical events. If we cannot acknowledge and accept
                                history (whether you choose to embrace those viewpoints expressed, or
                                not), then we are ever the more apt to repeat our species' past
                                mistakes. Remember, even Hitler was an important figure in history.

                                It is important that we be respectful of one another, here. But it is
                                equally important that we do not censor historical events as a way of
                                shielding ourselves from the reality of the path that brought us to
                                our present status as human beings.

                                Fin.

                                -Roz of Korsvag
                              • Ceindrych merch Riacat
                                Carrie Barnes wrote:
                                Message 15 of 21 , Nov 10, 2007
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                                  Carrie Barnes <cbarne3@...> wrote: << Well some of us are Catholic (and as one who is very active in Church activities) I am neither offended nor upset by placing the poem here. As a matter of fact would you like to recount the attrocities that were commited in the name of the church. Don't try to sanitize history, the Catholic church did some horrible things in the name of politics. >>


                                  Perhaps it is more accurate to say that those who were fortunate enough to attain a position of political power did some horrible things in the name of their respective religions (Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, whatever).


                                  <<The denial of events or opinions that are counter to our own beliefs merely due to their status as "other" can be a very dangerous behavior. >>


                                  I do not deny historical events or opinions. I merely expressed my surprise at seeing such violently hateful (not quite period) propaganda reproduced without comment or credit on a Yahoo message board in 2007. Perhaps I am sensitized to the perpetuation of religious bigotry because of the abuse our Indian Sikh neighbors (no connection whatsoever to Islam) and our Muslim friends endured after 9-11 from persons who couldn't (or didn't want to) understand the difference between radical Taliban terrorists and those who practice true Islam (or not even Islam at all).



                                  << If we cannot acknowledge and accept history (whether you choose to embrace those viewpoints expressed, or not), then we are ever the more apt to repeat our species' past
                                  mistakes. Remember, even Hitler was an important figure in history. >>


                                  But I would not post anti-semitic Nazi propaganda on a WWII reenactors' message board.


                                  << It is important that we be respectful of one another, here. But it is equally important that we do not censor historical events as a way of shielding ourselves from the reality of the path that brought us to our present status as human beings.>>


                                  Which, considering institutions such as Nazism, Communism, and the Taliban -- 400 years after the Gunpowder Plot -- doesn't exactly testify positively to the advancement and dignity of our present status as human beings.

                                  Sorry to rile so many feathers with my initial reaction.



                                  Ceindrych merch Riacat
                                  Wales, 607 AD
                                  ~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~
                                  Chatelaine
                                  Shire of Drakelaw
                                  Middle Kingdom
                                  2007 AD
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                                • Edwin Hewitt
                                  ... Edwin of Runedun, Caid, replies: I am RC mundanely, and yet historically-based and researched poetry such as posted recently bothers me not a pin. Indeed,
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Nov 23, 2007
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                                    --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
                                    > Assuming the world is represented in sub-sets of the world, should we
                                    > totally sanitize everything to avoid the possibility of offending
                                    > anyone? Should we not even talk about battles when religion was
                                    > involved?
                                    > AElflaed of Duckford
                                    > Outlands

                                    Edwin of Runedun, Caid, replies:
                                    I am RC mundanely, and yet historically-based and researched poetry
                                    such as posted recently bothers me not a pin. Indeed, I find it
                                    refreshing that we can acknowledge the troubled past in an amicable
                                    present. That is the way of the SCA isn't it?

                                    One of my favorite memories is of a "discussion" presented at a
                                    Collegium between a Crusader and a Muslim warrior, both of whom told
                                    the story of a particular battle from their side of the conflict. The
                                    two folks in particular were quite good friends - and the discussion
                                    quite lively.

                                    I far prefer these "biased" but researched poems and discussions to
                                    the "innocuous" Mel Brooks / Monty Pythonesque parodies of the
                                    Medieval Church which I more often see.

                                    All the best,
                                    Edwin
                                  • julian wilson
                                    Gentles of the List following this thread, Sanitising everything is simply a mealy-mouthed way of saying one approves censoring everything that you don t- or
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Nov 24, 2007
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                                      Gentles of the List following this thread,
                                      "Sanitising" everything is simply a mealy-mouthed way of saying one approves censoring everything that you don't- or someone else doesn't- agree with.
                                      That way lies the Tyranny of "Them". And who authorises "Them" the power to ultimately control our thoughts and our freedom of speech?
                                      "Quis ipsos custodies?" And who appoints and gives "oversight" to such "guardians of the public Weal"?
                                      . The 20th Century should be our lesson here - the Western World fought hot and "Cold" wars to preserve freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of democracy - for nations too politically- or militarily-weak to protect themselves from tyranny - either political or religious.
                                      The West hasn't been perfect at doing this, - but the results have been a great deal better for the ultimate good of Humanity - than would have been dictatorship by Imperial Germany, the Nazi State, the Italian Facisti, the Soviets and their Satellites, the Khmer Rouge - to name only a few of the obscene Regimes which would ultimately have controlled the thoughts and freedom of speech of the citizenry under their power.

                                      I was baptised and raised "High Anglican" Church of England.
                                      My re-enactment Persona is in re-creating a minor English noble, who lived between 1458 and 1509; and was therefore a member of the Catholic Church of Rome, before the Schism.
                                      I have no problems in reconciling the two differing mindsets; - because I believe that God knows the Secrets of my Heart, and therefore knows I intend no blasphemies.

                                      In humble service to the Kingdom of Drachenwald, and to The Light,
                                      Matthew Baker


                                      Edwin Hewitt <brogoose@...> wrote:
                                      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Sandra Dodd wrote:
                                      > Assuming the world is represented in sub-sets of the world, should we
                                      > totally sanitize everything to avoid the possibility of offending
                                      > anyone? Should we not even talk about battles when religion was
                                      > involved?
                                      > AElflaed of Duckford
                                      > Outlands

                                      Edwin of Runedun, Caid, replies:
                                      I am RC mundanely, and yet historically-based and researched poetry
                                      such as posted recently bothers me not a pin. Indeed, I find it
                                      refreshing that we can acknowledge the troubled past in an amicable
                                      present. That is the way of the SCA isn't it?

                                      One of my favorite memories is of a "discussion" presented at a
                                      Collegium between a Crusader and a Muslim warrior, both of whom told
                                      the story of a particular battle from their side of the conflict. The
                                      two folks in particular were quite good friends - and the discussion
                                      quite lively.

                                      I far prefer these "biased" but researched poems and discussions to
                                      the "innocuous" Mel Brooks / Monty Pythonesque parodies of the
                                      Medieval Church which I more often see.

                                      All the best,
                                      Edwin



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                                    • Maxamillan Wolfram von Schleuter
                                      ... wrote: ultimate good of Humanity - than would have been dictatorship by Imperial Germany, What dictorship? Your history is very poor if you really belive
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Nov 26, 2007
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                                        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, julian wilson <smnco37@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        ultimate good of Humanity - than would have been dictatorship by
                                        Imperial Germany,

                                        What dictorship? Your history is very poor if you really belive there
                                        was an Imperial Dictatorship!

                                        Imperial Germany was a far more liberal than America of the day. There
                                        was no color bar to vote, free schooling for ALL, and in fact they had
                                        a slightly left of center government in 1914.

                                        Please do not whitewash a war with fake good Vs wrong!

                                        Maks
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