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  • Voron
    MODERATOR NOTE: Welcome to our list. Please be sure to sign your posts so we know who you are. Thank you. Jehanne de Wodeford, Pacific Time Zone Moderator OK
    Message 1 of 14 , Oct 9, 2007
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      MODERATOR NOTE: Welcome to our list. Please be sure to sign your posts so we know who you are. Thank you. Jehanne de Wodeford, Pacific Time Zone Moderator


      OK I have a stupid question but I can't see to find an answer. So
      does any one know what period the Viking name Dufnial is? I know its
      OK for the SCA but the best information other then that I can get
      about it is that it is in the G.B. page 6 (I think). I would like to
      know because I am trying to figure out what types of armour and
      weapons are right for my persona.

      Also I was wondering if unique or unusual Weapon are allowed
      because I have a design that I really like but I have never seen
      anyone use a weapon like the one I have in mind. Basically it's a 7
      1/2 foot long spear with a thrusting tip on both ends and a small ax
      like head on the bottom. kinda like this <------------> with each - =
      1/2 foot and the ax head being a little smaller /__\ then my asci
      art makes it look. it would be held so that the left side is forward.

      Well this is where the newbie shuts up to let the people who know
      what they are talking about... well ... talk :p
    • Roxanne Price
      Sounds to me like you are discribing something kind of like a Mahdu(sp?)Last I heard it was and indian or african style spear and ax combo. A fighter would be
      Message 2 of 14 , Oct 9, 2007
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        Sounds to me like you are discribing something kind of like a Mahdu(sp?)Last I heard it was and indian or african style spear and ax combo.
        A fighter would be able to tell you more.
        Molly
      • Katherine Throckmorton
        ... There are no stupid questions, only unhelpful answers. ... I was able to find at least a partial answer to your question in Talan Gwynek s article Old
        Message 3 of 14 , Oct 9, 2007
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          Voron wrote:

          > >OK I have a stupid question but I can't see to find an answer.
          >



          There are no stupid questions, only unhelpful answers.

          >So does any one know what period the Viking name Dufnial is?

          I was able to find at least a partial answer to your question in Talan
          Gwynek's article "Old Norse forms of Early Irish Names". Which can be found
          here:
          http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/drafts/irish-norse.html
          As you can guess from the title, the issue here isn't just time period, but
          culture, since Dufnall is a Norse adaptation of a Irish name. The following
          is what Talan has to say about the name Dufnall:

          "Lind takes Dufniall as his headword. His three examples are Dufnall Erps
          son, the son of an early settler, a Dufniall 12th c. in Orkney, and a
          Dufnalldur 1405 in the Shetlands. Arnórsson (38) adds Dufníall Kjarvals son,
          the son of an Irish king and grandfather of a settler, who would seem to
          have been Irish himself. Dufnall Erps son had both Irish and Scottish
          ancestry. For future reference I summarize from (Arnórsson 128-32):

          Óleifr inn hvíti took Dublin and became king there. He married Auðr in
          djúpúðga; Þorsteinn rauði was their son. Óleifr was killed in battle, and
          Auðr and Þorsteinn went to the Hebrides, where Þorsteinn married (his son
          was Óláfr feilan; see Feilan below) and became a king. With Sigurðr jarl inn
          ríki he won Caithness, Sutherland, Ross, and Moray ('and more than half of
          Scotland'), becoming king over these lands. But he was betrayed and killed
          in battle by the Scots, so Auðr, who was at Caithness, took ship to Orkney,
          where she married off Gróa, one of Þorsteinn's daughters. Gróa was mother of
          Grel{o,}ð (or Gjafl{o,}ð) (q.v.). Then Auðr went to Iceland with 20 or 30
          free men.

          Erpr was Auðr's freedman. He was the son of Meldun jarl af Skotlandi,
          who was killed by Sigurðr inn ríki, and Mýrgj{o,}l, daughter of Gljómall
          Írakonungs. He and his mother were taken captive and enslaved by Sigurðr;
          she became bondwoman to Sigurðr's wife, whom she served faithfully. Auðr
          freed them and took them to Iceland on condition that Mýrgj{o,}l serve
          Þorsteinn's widow as well as she'd served Sigurðr's wife.

          De Vries takes the name to represent an EIr Dubniall but offers no
          references, and I can find no evidence of such a name. Dufnall and
          Dufnalldur could easily be from the common EIr Domnall; cf. such 12th and
          13th c. Scottish spellings as Dofnaldus, Dufenaldus (Black s.n. Donald). I'm
          inclined to agree with Black that Dufniall results from confusion with ON
          Njáll (q.v.)."

          Although most of the dates that are given for Dufnall are just after the
          Viking period, it appears that a few people with the name were alive during
          the Viking period. It appears that Dufnall, in some spelling would be a
          reasonable given name for a person from some time after the Viking invasion
          of Ireland up into the 12th or 13th century. It looks like a person who
          would be named Dufnall would be of mixed Irish and Norse ancestry, likely
          living in Ireland, Scotland or Iceland. I'm guessing that parts of England
          would also be a possibility. The precise spelling of the name might vary a
          bit depending on time period and location, so if you want to have a really
          firm persona it might be worthwhile to pick one of the places where the name
          was used and find the most appropriate spelling.

          >I know it isOK for the SCA but the best information other then that I can
          get about it is that it is in the G.B. page 6 (I think).

          This isn't directed at you, as much as it is a general statement, but it is
          generally helpful to say *why* you think that something is appropriate for
          the SCA, and exactly where your found it. Based on the citation, I'm
          guessing that you found the name on the Viking Answer Lady website, which is
          a generally reliable source. But it would be helpful to know for sure,
          since there are lots of sources of suspect information floating around the
          SCA.
          Also, as a general statement, if you are interested in situating your
          persona in a specific time and place, it is usually a good idea to pick the
          place first and then go for the name, not the other way around. Using
          this case as an example, picking Dufnall locks you pretty firmly into a
          Hiberno-Norse, or possibly Icelandic persona. Which is, of course, a fine
          thing to be. But if you were hoping to do Kievian Rus, the name won't work
          as well.

          in service,
          Katherine


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Despair Bear
          ... Well to start with you can not use a two handed weapon with a slashing or smashing head on both ends. Thrusting on both ends is OK. Check out your kingdom
          Message 4 of 14 , Oct 9, 2007
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            --- Voron <voron_20@...> wrote:


            >
            > Also I was wondering if unique or unusual
            > Weapon are allowed
            > because I have a design that I really like but I
            > have never seen
            > anyone use a weapon like the one I have in mind.
            > Basically it's a 7
            > 1/2 foot long spear with a thrusting tip on both
            > ends and a small ax
            > like head on the bottom. kinda like this
            > <------------> with each - =
            > 1/2 foot and the ax head being a little smaller
            > /__\ then my asci
            > art makes it look. it would be held so that the left
            > side is forward.


            Well to start with you can not use a two handed weapon
            with a slashing or smashing head on both ends.
            Thrusting on both ends is OK. Check out your kingdom
            heavy weapon rules.

            As for non combat applications, I know of "hewing
            spears" that where used in the "viking period" they
            are assumed to have been smiler to the glaive of the
            latter periods. There are some references in poetry of
            the period to what may be a type of Scandinavian
            halberd or polearm but I do not know of any surviving
            examples, if any one knows of any I would love to hear
            about it. Most viking type personna would have access
            to the common weapons; sword, shield, knife/seax,
            javelin, spear, bow, hand-axe, large axe (dane axe),
            longseax/shortsword. Less common weapons include;
            mace, sling, two handed sword, halberd, crossbow.
            There are probably variations on each of these but I
            would say that is the basics. Welcome to a really fun
            hobby, where are you located?


            Godric




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          • Voron
            In order: Yes I got that from the Viking Answer lady sorry for the lack of citation. I am in Misty Highlands in the Æthelmearc Kingdom. As for the name I
            Message 5 of 14 , Oct 9, 2007
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              In order:
              Yes I got that from the Viking Answer lady sorry for the lack of citation.

              I am in Misty Highlands in the Æthelmearc Kingdom.

              As for the name I wanted to be Viking so I looked up Viking names and
              found Dufnial/dufnall and really liked it it wasn't untill after I
              realized that I forgot to look up what time and exact area it was from
              (I feel kinda stupid about that). As I said I really like it so I was
              hoping it was from a period and area I would enjoy for my persona.
              Though I may rethink it as a lot of my nonSCA friends that I am
              getting into the SCA with me are all doing late era English personas.
              I am torn on weather or not I should change I like the viking era but
              they and the English didn't really get along too well lol.

              Randomly I was told that you can have a chopping head on pole arms up
              to 7 1/2 feet long (I will double check this later) and really the
              main point of the ax head on the weapon I was designing was to catch
              the edge of shields and pull them aside then I could use the but spike
              to score my hit. Also I realize that what I am talking about is really
              just a 7 1/2 foot long pole ax with a trusting tip on both ends held
              backwards. So I guess it is period though used weirdly.

              On a different topic I was also considering doing a just after the
              fall of Rome era persona (I believe that is as early as it goes though
              I would prefer to do a true roman persona). I was wondering if any one
              knew a good site to get late roman or just after the fall names for my
              persona. I just love the Roman empire and I love the whole Lorica
              Segmentata, Short sword and/or sort spear, and shield look.

              Grrr so indecisive. Well thanks for the help given already and I am
              sorry if I am completely nub sauce.

              Dufnall Saxonbane (for now at least)
            • henrikofhavn
              PBS program tonight about Japanese Swords - how they are made, etc. For anyone who may be interested in blacksmithing and soft metal (Copper, silver, gold,
              Message 6 of 14 , Oct 9, 2007
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                PBS program tonight about Japanese Swords - how they are made, etc.

                For anyone who may be interested in blacksmithing and soft metal
                (Copper, silver, gold, alloys)working techniques that were used in
                Asia
                and are similar to some used in various European locations - in
                period,
                The sword construction methods are similar to some Viking era swords
                in terms of forging and working the metal in a charcoal fire.
                Although most Samurai Swords are different in shape to Viking swords,
                the ancient Japanese also made straight double edged sword blades (
                called "Ken" or "Tsurugi" swords ) that are similar to Viking sword
                shapes ( see the film "Rashomon" for an example of such a sword
                wielded by the "Bandit" character in the story.) The forging
                techniques presented apply to all blade shapes and are useful to know.

                I recommend watching the NOVA program tonight on PBS. Channel 9 (
                local San Francisco channel) at 8:00
                PM is presenting this program , which is about historical Japanese
                Swords. This program details how they were made ( blades and hilt and
                scabbards and associated fittings) and used.

                Henrik



                Nova October 9, 2007


                Episode: "Secrets of the Samurai Sword"

                The craft of the traditional swordsmiths; samurai fighting school and
                the discipline of sword making.
              • Kareina Talvi Tytär
                ... [snip] One of the beauties of the SCA is that we do *not* all have the same persona! Because I, personally, have no interest in the late periods, I used to
                Message 7 of 14 , Oct 9, 2007
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                  Dufnall Saxonbane (for now at least) wrote:
                  >[snip]
                  >Though I may rethink it as a lot of my nonSCA friends that I am
                  >getting into the SCA with me are all doing late era English personas.
                  >I am torn on weather or not I should change I like the viking era but
                  >they and the English didn't really get along too well lol.
                  [snip]

                  One of the beauties of the SCA is that we do *not* all have the same persona!

                  Because I, personally, have no interest in the late periods, I used
                  to agree when people sitting around the camp fire late at night said
                  things like "I wish the SCA-cut off period was moved up by (insert
                  some # of centuries here) to get rid of all the late-period stuff".

                  But then I went to the 21 birthday party of the son of one of the
                  local SCA folk. Except for the three or four of us who are friends
                  of his parents, the attendees, all very, very trendy young people
                  (the boy in question works as a DJ at one of the city's most popular
                  night-clubs), looked to be cut from the exact same cooky-cutter
                  pattern. There was simply no variety to the look of any of them.

                  Ever since that day, I've loved the variety inherent within the SCA.
                  We may not be recreating any *one* time and place, but to me the
                  value in not everyone looking the same is more than worth it! So, if
                  you like the Viking Era, by all means, do what *you* like and don't
                  worry about what your friends & loved ones choose. (though, if you
                  all agree to do so, you can have fun interacting with one another
                  once in a while *as your personas would have*, just be careful not to
                  over do it!)

                  --Kareina, in Ynys Fawr, Lochac
                  (Tasmania, Australia)
                • Katherine Throckmorton
                  ... Don t feel bad about that. It happens all of the time, and most people *never* worry about figuring out exactly what time and place their name is from. .
                  Message 8 of 14 , Oct 9, 2007
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                    Voron wrote:
                    >
                    > >As for the name I wanted to be Viking so I looked up Viking names and
                    > >found Dufnial/dufnall and really liked it it wasn't untill after I
                    > >realized that I forgot to look up what time and exact area it was from
                    > >(I feel kinda stupid about that).
                    >






                    Don't feel bad about that. It happens all of the time, and most people
                    *never* worry about figuring out exactly what time and place their name is
                    from.
                    .
                    >I am torn on weather or not I should change I like the viking era but
                    >they and the English didn't really get along too well lol.

                    If you like doing Viking then do it and enjoy it. If you are minority
                    persona in your area, it might be worthwhile to see if there are any Viking
                    mailing lists that you can get on, since you can get the support there that
                    you aren't getting in your local area. Also, if you continue to do Viking
                    and do it well, you may find that people in your area develop a interest in
                    doing Viking stuff.

                    >
                    > >On a different topic I was also considering doing a just after the
                    > >fall of Rome era persona (I believe that is as early as it goes though
                    > > I would prefer to do a true roman persona). I was wondering if any one
                    > >knew a good site to get late roman or just after the fall names for my
                    > >persona.
                    >








                    Technically speaking, the SCA has no early cut off. How acceptable Roman
                    personas are varies depending on where you are, but at least in my area
                    there are a fair number of people doing Roman with few raised eyebrows. A
                    good source for Roman names are the articles at the Academy of St. Gabriel,
                    which can be found here:
                    www.s-gabriel.org/names
                    If you want to change your persona entirely, that is a fine and valid
                    choice. On the other hand, it is also possible to have two personas, if you
                    don't want to give up your Viking life.

                    -Katherine


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Folo Watkins
                    ... Yeah. Not like the English themselves of earlier, current and later eras... :) Cheers, Folo
                    Message 9 of 14 , Oct 9, 2007
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                      > > I like the viking era but
                      > >they and the English didn't really get along too well lol.

                      Yeah. Not like the English themselves of earlier, current and later eras... :)

                      Cheers, Folo
                    • Despair Bear
                      ... A single cutting/smashing head is OK, I had got the impression that you where looking to have one on each end of the weapon which is not allowed. You may
                      Message 10 of 14 , Oct 9, 2007
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                        --- Voron <voron_20@...> wrote:

                        > Randomly I was told that you can have a chopping
                        > head on pole arms up
                        > to 7 1/2 feet long (I will double check this later)
                        > and really the
                        > main point of the ax head on the weapon I was
                        > designing was to catch
                        > the edge of shields and pull them aside then I could
                        > use the but spike
                        > to score my hit. Also I realize that what I am
                        > talking about is really
                        > just a 7 1/2 foot long pole ax with a trusting tip
                        > on both ends held
                        > backwards. So I guess it is period though used
                        > weirdly.
                        >

                        A single cutting/smashing head is OK, I had got the
                        impression that you where looking to have one on each
                        end of the weapon which is not allowed. You may also
                        encounter in some places what is referred to as a 90
                        degree rule, meaning that a two handed weapon can not
                        be swung threw a 90 degree arc. Check with your
                        kingdoms conventions of combat.


                        Godric



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                      • wodeford
                        ... Thanks for the heads-up, Your Grace. It was well worth a look, especially the metallurgical details. If you missed it tonight, go to http://www.pbs.org and
                        Message 11 of 14 , Oct 9, 2007
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                          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "henrikofhavn" <duke_henrik@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > PBS program tonight about Japanese Swords - how they are made, etc.


                          Thanks for the heads-up, Your Grace. It was well worth a look,
                          especially the metallurgical details.

                          If you missed it tonight, go to http://www.pbs.org and see when/if
                          repeat broadcasts are scheduled for your local area.

                          Jehanne de Wodeford (who is sometimes Saionji no Hanae)
                          West Kingdom
                        • Voron
                          ... Is there an Oriental Section of the SCA? I am curious because I have a friend that thought the SCA sounded kinda neat but doesn t want to join since he is
                          Message 12 of 14 , Oct 10, 2007
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                            ... Is there an Oriental Section of the SCA? I am curious because I
                            have a friend that thought the SCA sounded kinda neat but doesn't want
                            to join since he is only really interested in Asian Weapons and stuff.
                            I told him I didn't think that the SCA covers Asian stuff but I of
                            course could be wrong about that. I is the Noob :p


                            thanks for all the help btw
                            Dufnial Saxonbane/Titus Volcatius Lanatus Pallidus (Still torn
                            about my persona...)
                          • wodeford
                            ... This language appears in the Introduction to the Society For Creative Anachronism Organizational Handbook and may be found on page 9 of the PDF at
                            Message 13 of 14 , Oct 10, 2007
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                              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Voron" <voron_20@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > ... Is there an Oriental Section of the SCA? I am curious because I
                              > have a friend that thought the SCA sounded kinda neat but doesn't want
                              > to join since he is only really interested in Asian Weapons and stuff.
                              > I told him I didn't think that the SCA covers Asian stuff but I of
                              > course could be wrong about that. I is the Noob :p

                              This language appears in the Introduction to the Society For Creative
                              Anachronism Organizational Handbook and may be found on page 9 of the
                              PDF at http://sca.org/docs/govdocs.pdf

                              "For Society members, most of the world, and all of the centuries
                              prior to the 17th, can serve as a source for personal research.
                              However, the further you go from the core of Medieval and Renaissance
                              Europe, the less the environment we offer will resemble what someone
                              of your time and country would find natural or homelike. For example,
                              you can be an Asian or African guest at a European court, but you
                              cannot expect others to share your special interests - like any
                              long-term visitor in a foreign land, you are the one who will have to
                              adapt to the customs you find around you. Since members have free
                              choice of what areas they will explore, it follows that Society
                              branches cannot decide to specialize in a specific time and place,
                              since that would make it hard for members there to pursue their own
                              interests in other times and places."

                              I know a number of people with East Asian persona and (split my time
                              as both Jehanne de Wodeford and Saionji no Hanae).

                              If your friend is interested in pursing a Japanese persona,
                              sca-jml@yahoogroups.com and the Tousando forum at
                              http://tousando.proboards18.com/ may be of interest.

                              Jehanne de Wodeford
                              West Kingdom
                            • Voron
                              MODERATOR NOTE: As a courtesy to our members, please sign your posts so we know who you are. Thank you! Jehanne de Wodeford, Pacific Time Zone Moderator.
                              Message 14 of 14 , Oct 14, 2007
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                                MODERATOR NOTE: As a courtesy to our members, please sign your posts so we know who you are. Thank you! Jehanne de Wodeford, Pacific Time Zone Moderator.



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