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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: looking for Documentation on leather drawstring pouches

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  • Elizabeth Walpole
    Thank you i went to the site and did what you said. they are not ... Sorry if people get this twice I accidentally double clicked on the reply button,
    Message 1 of 22 , Aug 31, 2007
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      <snip> Thank you i went to the site and did what you said. they are not
      > exactly what i was thinking of what i was making was basicly a
      > leather circle that is drawn up with pull strings and hung of the
      > belt like seen in the movies.

      Sorry if people get this twice I accidentally double clicked on the reply
      button, which turns into the send button once you've clicked on it once so
      the second click was actually hitting send
      Anyway, I'm pretty sure I've heard that we don't have any evidence for
      pouches which are cut as a single circle with the edges gathered in period,
      it's not the most efficient use of a piece of fabric or leather (you've got
      to cut off all the corners and it's not very secure (easy for pickpockets to
      gain access to). Of course this could be one of those costuming myths but I
      think you need to start searching for circle pouches in any medium before
      limiting yourself to just leather.
      Elizabeth
      --------------------------------------------
      Elizabeth Walpole | Elizabeth Beaumont
      Canberra, Australia | Politarchopolis, Lochac
      http://au.geocities.com/amiperiodornot/
    • Adele de Maisieres
      ... What is nonsense, exactly? The idea that you ll have more success if you do the research before the project? -- Adele de Maisieres ... Habeo metrum -
      Message 2 of 22 , Aug 31, 2007
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        Robert Van Rens wrote:
        >> Um, I think the main problem you're having is that you've decided what
        >> to make and now you're trying to ind a justification for it.
        >>
        >
        > Nonsense. Offhand, I can think of two huntsmen from Gaston Phebus that have
        > pouches like those described; some quick research will turn up others. Drew
        > Shoemaker makes a similar type of pouch; chskc his website and see if he
        > lists his source there.
        >

        What is nonsense, exactly? The idea that you'll have more success if
        you do the research before the project?

        --
        Adele de Maisieres

        -----------------------------
        Habeo metrum - musicamque,
        hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
        -Georgeus Gershwinus
        -----------------------------
      • Sandra Dodd
        -=-Just because the original poster actually might be able to document this sort of pouch doesn t make stunt documentation the way to go when choosing an A&S
        Message 3 of 22 , Sep 1, 2007
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          -=-Just because the original poster actually might be able to document
          this sort of pouch doesn't make stunt documentation the way to go when
          choosing an A&S project.-=-

          Peace, please!

          Alms purses were common.
          They were common in many cultures.
          And the name purse itself describes a drawstring bag, like pursed lips.
          There were other kinds of bags with a purse built into them, like a
          side pocket.

          If a word exists that has a meaning, that's a huge clue that there
          was a reason for the object being called that. Some documentation
          can be done with dictionaries such as the OED, and through
          etymological evidence.

          As late as the 20th century, people used square bandanas or
          handkerchiefs to carry food and money in, putting the materials in
          the middle, gathering the cloth up, and tying it off. There was
          another way to carry money in a handkerchief that was common before
          disposable tissues. Kids with a small amount of money (milk money or
          bus money) sometimes laid it near the corner of the handkerchief and
          then tied the corner across in an overhand knot toward the middle of
          the handkerchief. Then they still had a useable part of handkerchief
          and the money was secured. So just from that, if nothing else, it
          seems clear that people could have, and would have, had storage or
          transportation bags that were made of a flat sheet of leather or
          cloth, gathered and tied by a range of methods.

          More modern pouches with cutting and re-sewing (like leather marble
          bags, or "medicine bags") are all well and good and historically
          followable, but so are single-sheet containers.

          The assumption that someone is trying to document something after the
          fact is common, but it's not as courteous or helpful as we can be.
          It's less common now that it once was, too, because for one thing,
          many more things are accessible--paintings, other people's research,
          images of archeological finds, etc.

          AElflaed of Duckford
          Outlands




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Lia de Thornegge
          ... Jost, and others, As I said the site is done in Dutch and French, and the search terms have to be in either of those languages. However, they have a very
          Message 4 of 22 , Sep 1, 2007
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            On 9/1/07, Schrecht <schrecht@...> wrote:
            >
            > >>http://www.kikirpa.be/www2/wwwopac/en/object.html
            > Thanks, Lia. I do see the sort control you describe, but unfortunately, I
            > have yet to get the engine to return results when I don't know what I'm
            > looking for. I've tried restricting by place of origin and nothing else,
            > and just nothing, but the only way I can find any results at all is to look
            > for pouches, using the keyword you mentioned earlier.
            >
            > Do you have a suggestion for what I might be doing wrong? I'm quite sure
            > that the fault is mine, but I have no idea what it might be.
            >
            > -- Jost
            >

            Jost, and others,

            As I said the site is done in Dutch and French, and the search terms have to
            be in either of those languages. However, they have a very nifty help for
            searching, such that if you type in one or two letters and click on the
            dictionary/question mark after the field you will get a list of suggestions
            for search terms matching those one or two letters. From there you can click
            your way to a likely search term and use that. I suggest bringing a
            dictionary to the task.

            Best of luck,
            Lia

            --
            -'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~
            Lady Lia de Thornegge
            - http://www.geocities.com/lia_de_thornegge/
            Shire of Aros (Uppsala), Principality of Nordmark (Sweden), Kingdom of
            Drachenwald
            -'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~


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          • Adele de Maisieres
            ... I don t think anyone is disputing that. But there s a huge leap between an etymological clue on the appearance purses and the materials and construction
            Message 5 of 22 , Sep 1, 2007
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              Sandra Dodd wrote:
              > -=-Just because the original poster actually might be able to document
              > this sort of pouch doesn't make stunt documentation the way to go when
              > choosing an A&S project.-=-
              >
              > Peace, please!
              >
              > Alms purses were common.
              > They were common in many cultures.
              > And the name purse itself describes a drawstring bag, like pursed lips.
              > There were other kinds of bags with a purse built into them, like a
              > side pocket.
              >
              > If a word exists that has a meaning, that's a huge clue that there
              > was a reason for the object being called that. Some documentation
              > can be done with dictionaries such as the OED, and through
              > etymological evidence.
              >

              I don't think anyone is disputing that. But there's a huge leap between
              an etymological clue on the appearance purses and the materials and
              construction of a purse at any given time and place.

              > As late as the 20th century, people used square bandanas or
              > handkerchiefs to carry food and money in, putting the materials in
              > the middle, gathering the cloth up, and tying it off. There was
              > another way to carry money in a handkerchief that was common before
              > disposable tissues. Kids with a small amount of money (milk money or
              > bus money) sometimes laid it near the corner of the handkerchief and
              > then tied the corner across in an overhand knot toward the middle of
              > the handkerchief. Then they still had a useable part of handkerchief
              > and the money was secured. So just from that, if nothing else, it
              > seems clear that people could have, and would have, had storage or
              > transportation bags that were made of a flat sheet of leather or
              > cloth, gathered and tied by a range of methods.
              >

              Err... you just made a leap from 19th-century children tying things into
              their handkerchiefs to people at some unspecified point pre-17th century
              having sheets of leather for carrying things. That's an awfully big jump.
              > More modern pouches with cutting and re-sewing (like leather marble
              > bags, or "medicine bags") are all well and good and historically
              > followable, but so are single-sheet containers.
              >
              Documentation?

              > The assumption that someone is trying to document something after the
              > fact is common, but it's not as courteous or helpful as we can be.
              >


              Um, the OP was pretty explicit about having decided what to make and
              hunting for documentation to justify it. Aaaand... it's dicourteous or
              unhelpful to say "I think you're taking the wrong approach"?

              --
              Adele de Maisieres

              -----------------------------
              Habeo metrum - musicamque,
              hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
              -Georgeus Gershwinus
              -----------------------------
            • Sandra Dodd
              -=-I don t think anyone is disputing that. But there s a huge leap between an etymological clue on the appearance purses and the materials and construction of
              Message 6 of 22 , Sep 1, 2007
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                -=-I don't think anyone is disputing that. But there's a huge leap
                between
                an etymological clue on the appearance purses and the materials and
                construction of a purse at any given time and place. -=-

                Not always so huge.
                Finding a term often produces a quote. Finding a quote often proves
                a date. It's not going to work with every single thing, nor will it
                fail or need to be dismissed with every single thing. Examples:
                ballad, carol, fillet (such terms as "metal fillet" proves the term
                was general and one of metal shared attributes with those of leather
                or fish).

                -=-> More modern pouches with cutting and re-sewing (like leather marble
                > bags, or "medicine bags") are all well and good and historically
                > followable, but so are single-sheet containers.
                >
                -=-Documentation?-=-

                Experience and confidence. Seen examples; didn't collect quotes or
                illustrations, but they're out there.

                -=-Aaaand... it's dicourteous or
                unhelpful to say "I think you're taking the wrong approach"?-=-

                Absolutely has the potential to be discourteous and unhelpful,
                especially when others have already provided help and when the person
                doesn't say "I think." It happens too often.

                Let's help people find things, instead of discouraging the search!

                =Err... you just made a leap from 19th-century children tying things
                into
                their handkerchiefs to people at some unspecified point pre-17th
                century =

                "Err.... aaaand...." Those things are discourtous.

                It's not "a leap" to say "the thing existed then and still exists,"
                or "the thing was in use then and still in use until recently.
                (Handkerchiefs; ink wells; butter churns; hammers.)

                Using handkerchiefs for such purposes was traditional in the SW U.S.
                until into the mid 20th century. There's no reason for it to have
                been some idea. As handkerchiefs and kerchiefs and muckinders are
                documented, and are are known to have been tied on sometimes (from
                reference and illustration and tradition), then it's highly unlikely
                that the idea of tying something up in one was some novel 19th
                century technological advance.

                Some kinds of traditions change only very, very slowly:
                christenings, weddings, funerals, for example.
                There is a tradition involving a handkerchief being used for the
                christening (chrism) being saved and buried with the baby if the baby
                died very early (kid of like a proof of Baptism), or worn by the
                bride (as a purse, at least some of the time; the first example I
                found was definitely that), and buried with the woman when she died.
                I don't know what they did with the cloths from the boys' baptisms.

                Gathering up information always seems more fun and useful to me than
                rejecting information. Some of the best discoveries come from
                seemingly disparate connections, not from intentional research.
                Accidental finds are always the most exciting stories in science,
                history, biology, archeology...

                AElflaed of Duckford
                Outlands



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              • NINacide@aol.com
                Viking Clothing, Thor Ewing Men s Viking Purse, with button. ...A form of purse with a horseshoe-shaped bronze frame is known from several graves at Birka,
                Message 7 of 22 , Sep 1, 2007
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                  Viking Clothing, Thor Ewing

                  Men's Viking Purse, with button.

                  "...A form of purse with a horseshoe-shaped bronze frame is known from
                  several graves at Birka, and was worn under the left shoulder, where it would
                  have been concealed by the cloak. At Birka, purses of both types were often
                  closed with a bronze button."

                  I know it's an entirely different kind of bag, but if you want a pouch and
                  documented period, then this is the best I can give to you.

                  M.K.



                  ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
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                • squire009
                  If you look in Dover s The Complete Woodcuts of Albrecht Durer, I m sure you will find bags with drawstrings. I know that he shows purses with side-pockets
                  Message 8 of 22 , Sep 2, 2007
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                    If you look in Dover's The Complete Woodcuts of Albrecht Durer, I'm
                    sure you will find bags with drawstrings. I know that he shows purses
                    with side-pockets that are closed with cords rather than buckles.

                    Alcyoneus
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