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looking for Documentation on leather drawstring pouches

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  • veann
    I m making a simple leather drawstring pouch like an alms purse to hange on my belt. and need to find Documentation so i can enter it in an a&s contest. and
    Message 1 of 22 , Aug 30, 2007
      I'm making a simple leather drawstring pouch like an alms purse to
      hange on my belt. and need to find Documentation so i can enter it in
      an a&s contest. and when i do a search i find a bunch of sites that
      sell them. I'm not good and the research side of things and would
      appreciate any help you could give.
      thanks Anna Zen
    • Lia de Thornegge
      ... Greetings Anna, There is a website with a search engine for the Royal Institute for the Artistic Heritage of Belgium. It is a splendid site and has many
      Message 2 of 22 , Aug 30, 2007
        On 8/30/07, veann <mother_snyder@...> wrote:
        >
        > I'm making a simple leather drawstring pouch like an alms purse to
        > hange on my belt. and need to find Documentation so i can enter it in
        > an a&s contest. and when i do a search i find a bunch of sites that
        > sell them. I'm not good and the research side of things and would
        > appreciate any help you could give.
        > thanks Anna Zen



        Greetings Anna,

        There is a website with a search engine for the Royal Institute for the
        Artistic Heritage of Belgium. It is a splendid site and has many splendid
        images of extant objects to satisfy many a researcher. For purses or bags,
        go to the search page:
        http://www.kikirpa.be/www2/wwwopac/en/object.html
        Under "Technical Data" there is a field "Object" type in beurs in that field
        and you will be given a list of 152 objects. Some of them are leather, other
        textile, but its been a while since I dove into them myself. Hmm, having
        just done so, you can combine object type beurs with Material leer and there
        you will find precisely what you are looking for, I believe.

        Best wishes,
        Lia

        --
        -'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~
        Lady Lia de Thornegge
        - http://www.geocities.com/lia_de_thornegge/
        Shire of Aros (Uppsala), Principality of Nordmark (Sweden), Kingdom of
        Drachenwald
        -'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Schrecht
        MODERATOR NOTE - Please do not top post to multiple messages. Please remove any portion of the previous message which does not need to be repeated as a
        Message 3 of 22 , Aug 30, 2007
          MODERATOR NOTE - Please do not "top post" to multiple messages. Please remove any portion of the previous message which does not need to be repeated as a courtesy to our many members who receive this list in digest form. Thank you. Jehanne de Wodeford, Pacific Time Zone Moderator. (Messages edited)

          Lia, what a wonderful resource, thanks. How do we use the engine to restrict in time? I see a control labelled "Styl/Period", but how should a time period be specified? I tried 1000-1600 and got "no record found", as did adding "1301 - 1325" to a search for "beurs".

          -- Cornelius / Jost
        • Lia de Thornegge
          ... Good question Cornelius. After a bit of poking around it seems Styl/Period means what stylistic period the object falls under, such at baroque or gothic
          Message 4 of 22 , Aug 30, 2007
            On 8/31/07, Schrecht <schrecht@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Lia, what a wonderful resource, thanks. How do we use the engine to
            > restrict in time? I see a control labelled "Styl/Period", but how should a
            > time period be specified? I tried 1000-1600 and got "no record found", as
            > did adding "1301 - 1325" to a search for "beurs".
            >
            > -- Cornelius / Jost


            Good question Cornelius.
            After a bit of poking around it seems "Styl/Period" means what stylistic
            period the object falls under, such at baroque or gothic etc. Not the date
            at all. I do know there used to be a field to restrict for dates, but as
            shown now, I can't find a way to accomplish it. The site is done in Dutch
            and French, I'm not actually conversant in either, I just fake my way
            through, so if someone who speaks either has a look they might have better
            luck than I did.

            On the other hand, the date is listed fairly prominently in the hit-list
            after a search.

            /Lia

            --
            -'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~
            Lady Lia de Thornegge
            - http://www.geocities.com/lia_de_thornegge/
            Shire of Aros (Uppsala), Principality of Nordmark (Sweden), Kingdom of
            Drachenwald
            -'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • veann
            ... for the ... splendid ... or bags, ... that field ... leather, other ... having ... and there ... Thank you i went to the site and did what you said. they
            Message 5 of 22 , Aug 30, 2007
              >
              > There is a website with a search engine for the Royal Institute
              for the
              > Artistic Heritage of Belgium. It is a splendid site and has many
              splendid
              > images of extant objects to satisfy many a researcher. For purses
              or bags,
              > go to the search page:
              > http://www.kikirpa.be/www2/wwwopac/en/object.html
              > Under "Technical Data" there is a field "Object" type in beurs in
              that field
              > and you will be given a list of 152 objects. Some of them are
              leather, other
              > textile, but its been a while since I dove into them myself. Hmm,
              having
              > just done so, you can combine object type beurs with Material leer
              and there
              > you will find precisely what you are looking for, I believe.
              >
              Thank you i went to the site and did what you said. they are not
              exactly what i was thinking of what i was making was basicly a
              leather circle that is drawn up with pull strings and hung of the
              belt like seen in the movies. but these are beuteful. most of them
              where one big bag with 2 smaller ones hanging on each side what was
              these smaller bags used for? thanks anna zen
            • Schrecht
              ... Indeed it is. My wish was to restrict the date range to the ranges corresponding to my period of concentration, but otherwise leave the search
              Message 6 of 22 , Aug 30, 2007
                Lia wrote:
                > On the other hand, the date is listed fairly prominently in the hit-list
                > after a search.

                Indeed it is. My wish was to restrict the date range to the ranges corresponding to my period of concentration, but otherwise leave the search unrestricted. I'll have to rethink my strategy.






                ____________________________________________________________________________________
                Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
              • Adele de Maisieres
                ... Um, I think the main problem you re having is that you ve decided what to make and now you re trying to ind a justification for it. -- Adele de Maisieres
                Message 7 of 22 , Aug 30, 2007
                  veann wrote:
                  > Thank you i went to the site and did what you said. they are not
                  > exactly what i was thinking of what i was making was basicly a
                  > leather circle that is drawn up with pull strings and hung of the
                  > belt like seen in the movies. but these are beuteful. most of them
                  > where one big bag with 2 smaller ones hanging on each side what was
                  > these smaller bags used for?

                  Um, I think the main problem you're having is that you've decided what
                  to make and now you're trying to ind a justification for it.


                  --
                  Adele de Maisieres

                  -----------------------------
                  Habeo metrum - musicamque,
                  hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
                  -Georgeus Gershwinus
                  -----------------------------
                • Lia de Thornegge
                  Cornelius, I had another look this morning, and although there is no way to restrict the search in time, you -can- sort the hits according to date. Scroll down
                  Message 8 of 22 , Aug 31, 2007
                    Cornelius,

                    I had another look this morning, and although there is no way to restrict
                    the search in time, you -can- sort the hits according to date. Scroll down
                    to the bottom of the search view, the heading Result shows two drop down
                    lists after the text Sort on. Choose Date in the first, and hit search and
                    the results will be neatly listed according to time period.

                    /Lia

                    --
                    -'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~
                    Lady Lia de Thornegge
                    - http://www.geocities.com/lia_de_thornegge/
                    Shire of Aros (Uppsala), Principality of Nordmark (Sweden), Kingdom of
                    Drachenwald
                    -'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~
                  • Elizabeth Walpole
                    ... From: veann To: Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 10:02 AM Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: looking for
                    Message 9 of 22 , Aug 31, 2007
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "veann" <mother_snyder@...>
                      To: <Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 10:02 AM
                      Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: looking for Documentation on leather drawstring
                      pouches


                      >>
                      >> There is a website with a search engine for the Royal Institute
                      > for the
                      >> Artistic Heritage of Belgium. It is a splendid site and has many
                      > splendid
                      >> images of extant objects to satisfy many a researcher. For purses
                      > or bags,
                      >> go to the search page:
                      >> http://www.kikirpa.be/www2/wwwopac/en/object.html
                      >> Under "Technical Data" there is a field "Object" type in beurs in
                      > that field
                      >> and you will be given a list of 152 objects. Some of them are
                      > leather, other
                      >> textile, but its been a while since I dove into them myself. Hmm,
                      > having
                      >> just done so, you can combine object type beurs with Material leer
                      > and there
                      >> you will find precisely what you are looking for, I believe.
                      >>
                      > Thank you i went to the site and did what you said. they are not
                      > exactly what i was thinking of what i was making was basicly a
                      > leather circle that is drawn up with pull strings and hung of the
                      > belt like seen in the movies. but these are beuteful. most of them
                      > where one big bag with 2 smaller ones hanging on each side what was
                      > these smaller bags used for? thanks anna zen
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ----------------------------------------------------
                      > This is the Authentic SCA eGroup
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Elizabeth Walpole
                      Thank you i went to the site and did what you said. they are not ... Sorry if people get this twice I accidentally double clicked on the reply button,
                      Message 10 of 22 , Aug 31, 2007
                        <snip> Thank you i went to the site and did what you said. they are not
                        > exactly what i was thinking of what i was making was basicly a
                        > leather circle that is drawn up with pull strings and hung of the
                        > belt like seen in the movies.

                        Sorry if people get this twice I accidentally double clicked on the reply
                        button, which turns into the send button once you've clicked on it once so
                        the second click was actually hitting send
                        Anyway, I'm pretty sure I've heard that we don't have any evidence for
                        pouches which are cut as a single circle with the edges gathered in period,
                        it's not the most efficient use of a piece of fabric or leather (you've got
                        to cut off all the corners and it's not very secure (easy for pickpockets to
                        gain access to). Of course this could be one of those costuming myths but I
                        think you need to start searching for circle pouches in any medium before
                        limiting yourself to just leather.
                        Elizabeth
                        --------------------------------------------
                        Elizabeth Walpole | Elizabeth Beaumont
                        Canberra, Australia | Politarchopolis, Lochac
                        http://au.geocities.com/amiperiodornot/
                      • Karen
                        You can find some more plain leather pouches (as well as other fancy styles) at http://www.larsdatter.com/pouches.htm too. :-) Karen
                        Message 11 of 22 , Aug 31, 2007
                          You can find some more plain leather pouches (as well as other fancy styles) at http://www.larsdatter.com/pouches.htm too. :-)

                          Karen
                        • Robert Van Rens
                          ... Nonsense. Offhand, I can think of two huntsmen from Gaston Phebus that have pouches like those described; some quick research will turn up others. Drew
                          Message 12 of 22 , Aug 31, 2007
                            >From: Adele de Maisieres <ladyadele@...>
                            >
                            >veann wrote:
                            > > Thank you i went to the site and did what you said. they are not
                            > > exactly what i was thinking of what i was making was basicly a
                            > > leather circle that is drawn up with pull strings and hung of the
                            > > belt like seen in the movies. but these are beuteful. most of them
                            > > where one big bag with 2 smaller ones hanging on each side what was
                            > > these smaller bags used for?
                            >
                            >Um, I think the main problem you're having is that you've decided what
                            >to make and now you're trying to ind a justification for it.
                            >

                            Nonsense. Offhand, I can think of two huntsmen from Gaston Phebus that have
                            pouches like those described; some quick research will turn up others. Drew
                            Shoemaker makes a similar type of pouch; chskc his website and see if he
                            lists his source there.

                            Eadric the Potter

                            _________________________________________________________________
                            Puzzles, trivia teasers, word scrambles and more. Play for your chance to
                            win! http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=CLUB_hotmailtextlink
                          • Nastasiia Ivanova Medvedeva
                            ... {snip} ... that have ... others. Drew ... if he ... Just because the original poster actually might be able to document this sort of pouch doesn t make
                            Message 13 of 22 , Aug 31, 2007
                              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Van Rens" <rvanrens@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > >From: Adele de Maisieres <ladyadele@...>
                              {snip}
                              > >
                              > >Um, I think the main problem you're having is that you've decided what
                              > >to make and now you're trying to ind a justification for it.
                              > >
                              >
                              > Nonsense. Offhand, I can think of two huntsmen from Gaston Phebus
                              that have
                              > pouches like those described; some quick research will turn up
                              others. Drew
                              > Shoemaker makes a similar type of pouch; chskc his website and see
                              if he
                              > lists his source there.
                              >
                              > Eadric the Potter

                              Just because the original poster actually might be able to document
                              this sort of pouch doesn't make stunt documentation the way to go when
                              choosing an A&S project.

                              Tasha
                            • gedney@OPTONLINE.NET
                              Darned Right. Reverse docuemtnation is the road to madness. You can slant and reinterpret documentation to justify just about ANYTHING. That is not sound
                              Message 14 of 22 , Aug 31, 2007
                                Darned Right.
                                "Reverse docuemtnation" is the road to madness.
                                You can slant and reinterpret documentation to "justify" just about ANYTHING. That is not sound recreation practice.

                                The basic rule:
                                Choose your project from the documntnation,
                                do not choose documentation from the project.

                                in other words:
                                Research first, build later.

                                If you already have a project in mind, you should not be so wedded to it that you are not ready to scrap it or redesign it if the documentation does not support it.
                                (lets say, for example you wanted to make a pair of boots for a 16th century Flemish seaman...
                                then you find that they rarely wore boots, but often wore leather slippers with wood sabots...
                                You'll be tempted to keep looking for pics of Flemish sailors in boots, even if the pictures are tertiary documentation or reinterpreted pics or fantasy.
                                What you should do is change the project to fit the research, or scrap it)

                                If you are hell bent on making something specific, you will be tempted to ignore or reinterpret documentation that does not support your project in order to "justify" it.

                                Capt Elias


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Adele de Maisieres
                                ... What is nonsense, exactly? The idea that you ll have more success if you do the research before the project? -- Adele de Maisieres ... Habeo metrum -
                                Message 15 of 22 , Aug 31, 2007
                                  Robert Van Rens wrote:
                                  >> Um, I think the main problem you're having is that you've decided what
                                  >> to make and now you're trying to ind a justification for it.
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  > Nonsense. Offhand, I can think of two huntsmen from Gaston Phebus that have
                                  > pouches like those described; some quick research will turn up others. Drew
                                  > Shoemaker makes a similar type of pouch; chskc his website and see if he
                                  > lists his source there.
                                  >

                                  What is nonsense, exactly? The idea that you'll have more success if
                                  you do the research before the project?

                                  --
                                  Adele de Maisieres

                                  -----------------------------
                                  Habeo metrum - musicamque,
                                  hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
                                  -Georgeus Gershwinus
                                  -----------------------------
                                • Schrecht
                                  ... Thanks, Lia. I do see the sort control you describe, but unfortunately, I have yet to get the engine to return results when I don t know what I m looking
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Aug 31, 2007
                                    Lia wrote:

                                    > I had another look this morning, and although there is no way to restrict
                                    > the search in time, you -can- sort the hits according to date. Scroll down
                                    > to the bottom of the search view, the heading Result shows two drop down
                                    > lists after the text Sort on. Choose Date in the first, and hit search and
                                    > the results will be neatly listed according to time period.


                                    Thanks, Lia. I do see the sort control you describe, but unfortunately, I have yet to get the engine to return results when I don't know what I'm looking for. I've tried restricting by place of origin and nothing else, and just nothing, but the only way I can find any results at all is to look for pouches, using the keyword you mentioned earlier.

                                    Do you have a suggestion for what I might be doing wrong? I'm quite sure that the fault is mine, but I have no idea what it might be.

                                    -- Jost







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                                  • Sandra Dodd
                                    -=-Just because the original poster actually might be able to document this sort of pouch doesn t make stunt documentation the way to go when choosing an A&S
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Sep 1, 2007
                                      -=-Just because the original poster actually might be able to document
                                      this sort of pouch doesn't make stunt documentation the way to go when
                                      choosing an A&S project.-=-

                                      Peace, please!

                                      Alms purses were common.
                                      They were common in many cultures.
                                      And the name purse itself describes a drawstring bag, like pursed lips.
                                      There were other kinds of bags with a purse built into them, like a
                                      side pocket.

                                      If a word exists that has a meaning, that's a huge clue that there
                                      was a reason for the object being called that. Some documentation
                                      can be done with dictionaries such as the OED, and through
                                      etymological evidence.

                                      As late as the 20th century, people used square bandanas or
                                      handkerchiefs to carry food and money in, putting the materials in
                                      the middle, gathering the cloth up, and tying it off. There was
                                      another way to carry money in a handkerchief that was common before
                                      disposable tissues. Kids with a small amount of money (milk money or
                                      bus money) sometimes laid it near the corner of the handkerchief and
                                      then tied the corner across in an overhand knot toward the middle of
                                      the handkerchief. Then they still had a useable part of handkerchief
                                      and the money was secured. So just from that, if nothing else, it
                                      seems clear that people could have, and would have, had storage or
                                      transportation bags that were made of a flat sheet of leather or
                                      cloth, gathered and tied by a range of methods.

                                      More modern pouches with cutting and re-sewing (like leather marble
                                      bags, or "medicine bags") are all well and good and historically
                                      followable, but so are single-sheet containers.

                                      The assumption that someone is trying to document something after the
                                      fact is common, but it's not as courteous or helpful as we can be.
                                      It's less common now that it once was, too, because for one thing,
                                      many more things are accessible--paintings, other people's research,
                                      images of archeological finds, etc.

                                      AElflaed of Duckford
                                      Outlands




                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Lia de Thornegge
                                      ... Jost, and others, As I said the site is done in Dutch and French, and the search terms have to be in either of those languages. However, they have a very
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Sep 1, 2007
                                        On 9/1/07, Schrecht <schrecht@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > >>http://www.kikirpa.be/www2/wwwopac/en/object.html
                                        > Thanks, Lia. I do see the sort control you describe, but unfortunately, I
                                        > have yet to get the engine to return results when I don't know what I'm
                                        > looking for. I've tried restricting by place of origin and nothing else,
                                        > and just nothing, but the only way I can find any results at all is to look
                                        > for pouches, using the keyword you mentioned earlier.
                                        >
                                        > Do you have a suggestion for what I might be doing wrong? I'm quite sure
                                        > that the fault is mine, but I have no idea what it might be.
                                        >
                                        > -- Jost
                                        >

                                        Jost, and others,

                                        As I said the site is done in Dutch and French, and the search terms have to
                                        be in either of those languages. However, they have a very nifty help for
                                        searching, such that if you type in one or two letters and click on the
                                        dictionary/question mark after the field you will get a list of suggestions
                                        for search terms matching those one or two letters. From there you can click
                                        your way to a likely search term and use that. I suggest bringing a
                                        dictionary to the task.

                                        Best of luck,
                                        Lia

                                        --
                                        -'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~
                                        Lady Lia de Thornegge
                                        - http://www.geocities.com/lia_de_thornegge/
                                        Shire of Aros (Uppsala), Principality of Nordmark (Sweden), Kingdom of
                                        Drachenwald
                                        -'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~-'*'-~


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Adele de Maisieres
                                        ... I don t think anyone is disputing that. But there s a huge leap between an etymological clue on the appearance purses and the materials and construction
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Sep 1, 2007
                                          Sandra Dodd wrote:
                                          > -=-Just because the original poster actually might be able to document
                                          > this sort of pouch doesn't make stunt documentation the way to go when
                                          > choosing an A&S project.-=-
                                          >
                                          > Peace, please!
                                          >
                                          > Alms purses were common.
                                          > They were common in many cultures.
                                          > And the name purse itself describes a drawstring bag, like pursed lips.
                                          > There were other kinds of bags with a purse built into them, like a
                                          > side pocket.
                                          >
                                          > If a word exists that has a meaning, that's a huge clue that there
                                          > was a reason for the object being called that. Some documentation
                                          > can be done with dictionaries such as the OED, and through
                                          > etymological evidence.
                                          >

                                          I don't think anyone is disputing that. But there's a huge leap between
                                          an etymological clue on the appearance purses and the materials and
                                          construction of a purse at any given time and place.

                                          > As late as the 20th century, people used square bandanas or
                                          > handkerchiefs to carry food and money in, putting the materials in
                                          > the middle, gathering the cloth up, and tying it off. There was
                                          > another way to carry money in a handkerchief that was common before
                                          > disposable tissues. Kids with a small amount of money (milk money or
                                          > bus money) sometimes laid it near the corner of the handkerchief and
                                          > then tied the corner across in an overhand knot toward the middle of
                                          > the handkerchief. Then they still had a useable part of handkerchief
                                          > and the money was secured. So just from that, if nothing else, it
                                          > seems clear that people could have, and would have, had storage or
                                          > transportation bags that were made of a flat sheet of leather or
                                          > cloth, gathered and tied by a range of methods.
                                          >

                                          Err... you just made a leap from 19th-century children tying things into
                                          their handkerchiefs to people at some unspecified point pre-17th century
                                          having sheets of leather for carrying things. That's an awfully big jump.
                                          > More modern pouches with cutting and re-sewing (like leather marble
                                          > bags, or "medicine bags") are all well and good and historically
                                          > followable, but so are single-sheet containers.
                                          >
                                          Documentation?

                                          > The assumption that someone is trying to document something after the
                                          > fact is common, but it's not as courteous or helpful as we can be.
                                          >


                                          Um, the OP was pretty explicit about having decided what to make and
                                          hunting for documentation to justify it. Aaaand... it's dicourteous or
                                          unhelpful to say "I think you're taking the wrong approach"?

                                          --
                                          Adele de Maisieres

                                          -----------------------------
                                          Habeo metrum - musicamque,
                                          hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
                                          -Georgeus Gershwinus
                                          -----------------------------
                                        • Sandra Dodd
                                          -=-I don t think anyone is disputing that. But there s a huge leap between an etymological clue on the appearance purses and the materials and construction of
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Sep 1, 2007
                                            -=-I don't think anyone is disputing that. But there's a huge leap
                                            between
                                            an etymological clue on the appearance purses and the materials and
                                            construction of a purse at any given time and place. -=-

                                            Not always so huge.
                                            Finding a term often produces a quote. Finding a quote often proves
                                            a date. It's not going to work with every single thing, nor will it
                                            fail or need to be dismissed with every single thing. Examples:
                                            ballad, carol, fillet (such terms as "metal fillet" proves the term
                                            was general and one of metal shared attributes with those of leather
                                            or fish).

                                            -=-> More modern pouches with cutting and re-sewing (like leather marble
                                            > bags, or "medicine bags") are all well and good and historically
                                            > followable, but so are single-sheet containers.
                                            >
                                            -=-Documentation?-=-

                                            Experience and confidence. Seen examples; didn't collect quotes or
                                            illustrations, but they're out there.

                                            -=-Aaaand... it's dicourteous or
                                            unhelpful to say "I think you're taking the wrong approach"?-=-

                                            Absolutely has the potential to be discourteous and unhelpful,
                                            especially when others have already provided help and when the person
                                            doesn't say "I think." It happens too often.

                                            Let's help people find things, instead of discouraging the search!

                                            =Err... you just made a leap from 19th-century children tying things
                                            into
                                            their handkerchiefs to people at some unspecified point pre-17th
                                            century =

                                            "Err.... aaaand...." Those things are discourtous.

                                            It's not "a leap" to say "the thing existed then and still exists,"
                                            or "the thing was in use then and still in use until recently.
                                            (Handkerchiefs; ink wells; butter churns; hammers.)

                                            Using handkerchiefs for such purposes was traditional in the SW U.S.
                                            until into the mid 20th century. There's no reason for it to have
                                            been some idea. As handkerchiefs and kerchiefs and muckinders are
                                            documented, and are are known to have been tied on sometimes (from
                                            reference and illustration and tradition), then it's highly unlikely
                                            that the idea of tying something up in one was some novel 19th
                                            century technological advance.

                                            Some kinds of traditions change only very, very slowly:
                                            christenings, weddings, funerals, for example.
                                            There is a tradition involving a handkerchief being used for the
                                            christening (chrism) being saved and buried with the baby if the baby
                                            died very early (kid of like a proof of Baptism), or worn by the
                                            bride (as a purse, at least some of the time; the first example I
                                            found was definitely that), and buried with the woman when she died.
                                            I don't know what they did with the cloths from the boys' baptisms.

                                            Gathering up information always seems more fun and useful to me than
                                            rejecting information. Some of the best discoveries come from
                                            seemingly disparate connections, not from intentional research.
                                            Accidental finds are always the most exciting stories in science,
                                            history, biology, archeology...

                                            AElflaed of Duckford
                                            Outlands



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                                          • NINacide@aol.com
                                            Viking Clothing, Thor Ewing Men s Viking Purse, with button. ...A form of purse with a horseshoe-shaped bronze frame is known from several graves at Birka,
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Sep 1, 2007
                                              Viking Clothing, Thor Ewing

                                              Men's Viking Purse, with button.

                                              "...A form of purse with a horseshoe-shaped bronze frame is known from
                                              several graves at Birka, and was worn under the left shoulder, where it would
                                              have been concealed by the cloak. At Birka, purses of both types were often
                                              closed with a bronze button."

                                              I know it's an entirely different kind of bag, but if you want a pouch and
                                              documented period, then this is the best I can give to you.

                                              M.K.



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                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • squire009
                                              If you look in Dover s The Complete Woodcuts of Albrecht Durer, I m sure you will find bags with drawstrings. I know that he shows purses with side-pockets
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Sep 2, 2007
                                                If you look in Dover's The Complete Woodcuts of Albrecht Durer, I'm
                                                sure you will find bags with drawstrings. I know that he shows purses
                                                with side-pockets that are closed with cords rather than buckles.

                                                Alcyoneus
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