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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Belts

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  • Ann Catelli
    ... Which are definitely not knitted. Off-hand, I would say that knitting is a technique not well-suited to belts. Even the not-stretchy sort of knitting, done
    Message 1 of 22 , Jul 5, 2007
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      --- Despair Bear <despairbear@...> wrote:

      >
      > --- Natasha Laity Snyder <tangwystel@...>
      > wrote:
      >
      > > What about knitted belts? A possiblility?
      > > Documented?
      > >
      > > Tangwystel
      >
      > Early period saxon comes to mind, card woven belts.
      > Say around 900 made from linen or wool, possibly
      > silk?. Not as long as the traditional "SCA belts"
      > and
      > 1 inch wide or less.
      >
      >
      > Godric

      Which are definitely not knitted.

      Off-hand, I would say that knitting is a technique not
      well-suited to belts.
      Even the not-stretchy sort of knitting, done very
      tightly, would not be a good candidate to my mind.
      Most, if not all, of the knitting done until the late
      eighteenth century was very tightly made and not a
      stretchy material.

      There exists a fragment of knitting from Egypt,
      13-14th century, that is a long, skinny tube fragment,
      which does suggest, at least, a belt. This is from my
      unreliable memory, try Tissus d'Egypt for a possible
      source.

      Ann in CT



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    • Ann Catelli
      ... What time frame, here, please? Ann in CT ____________________________________________________________________________________ Boardwalk for $500? In 2007?
      Message 2 of 22 , Jul 5, 2007
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        --- Amy Heilveil <amyheilveil@...> wrote:

        > Transylvanian, Walachian, and Moldavian belts - 6
        > inches wide and
        > wider. Not seen as long as they are tucked or held
        > in some manner
        > completely around the waist. No dangling.
        >
        > Smiles,
        > Despina de la who knew?
        >
        > On 7/4/07, Natasha Laity Snyder
        > <tangwystel@...> wrote:
        > > What about knitted belts? A possiblility?
        > Documented?
        > >
        > > Tangwystel

        What time frame, here, please?

        Ann in CT



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      • Amy Heilveil
        Okay, I messed up. After a bit of sleep and the cobwebs cleared... those of which I spoke aren t knitted, they re woven. My sincere apologies. Despina de la
        Message 3 of 22 , Jul 5, 2007
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          Okay, I messed up. After a bit of sleep and the cobwebs cleared...
          those of which I spoke aren't knitted, they're woven. My sincere
          apologies.

          Despina de la sleep deprivation coupled with packing is not a good
          mode to try thinking



          > What time frame, here, please?
          >
          > Ann in CT
        • borderlands15213
          ... Very curious am I, now. I don t knit, at least not much (I know knit stitch and purl stitch and that s great, except I haven t learned how to cast on
          Message 4 of 22 , Jul 6, 2007
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            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Ann Catelli <elvestoorder@...>
            wrote:
            >
            >
            > --- Despair Bear <despairbear@...> wrote:
            >
            > >
            > > --- Natasha Laity Snyder <tangwystel@...>
            > > wrote:
            > >
            > > > What about knitted belts? A possiblility?
            > > > Documented?
            > > >
            > > > Tangwystel
            > >
            > > Early period saxon comes to mind, card woven belts.
            > > Say around 900 made from linen or wool, possibly
            > > silk?. Not as long as the traditional "SCA belts"
            > > and
            > > 1 inch wide or less.
            > >
            > >
            > > Godric
            >
            > Which are definitely not knitted.
            >
            > Off-hand, I would say that knitting is a technique not
            > well-suited to belts.
            > Even the not-stretchy sort of knitting, done very
            > tightly, would not be a good candidate to my mind.
            > Most, if not all, of the knitting done until the late
            > eighteenth century was very tightly made and not a
            > stretchy material.
            <<<snipped>>>
            >
            > Ann in CT
            >

            Very curious am I, now.
            I don't knit, at least not much (I know knit stitch and purl stitch
            and that's great, except I haven't learned how to cast on correctly,
            no matter which method you talk about) so I admit there's a great
            deal I don't know.
            I recall, however, a lady in my town who was for a while doing
            volunteer work through a program with her church, in which various of
            the parish were engaged in knitting bandages for lepers (that's what
            she said--- ) and they *had* to be made of cotton yarn because they
            wouldn't stretch, despite being knitted.
            So, if a belt were knitted of linen? Of hemp? Of silk? None of
            those is stretchy?....

            Sort of ruminating, but without much base of knowledge...

            Yseult the Gentle
          • Ann Catelli
            ... But your t-shirts, say, are cotton and knit, and stretch. Non-stretchy fibers, such as silk, cotton, and linen can be knit. The knit fabric formed by most
            Message 5 of 22 , Jul 6, 2007
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              --- borderlands15213 <borderlands15213@...>
              wrote:

              > I don't knit, at least not much.
              > I recall, however, a lady in my town who was for a
              > while doing
              > volunteer work through a program with her church, in
              > which various of
              > the parish were engaged in knitting bandages for
              > lepers (that's what
              > she said--- ) and they *had* to be made of cotton
              > yarn because they
              > wouldn't stretch, despite being knitted.
              > So, if a belt were knitted of linen? Of hemp? Of
              > silk? None of those is stretchy?....
              >
              > Yseult the Gentle

              But your t-shirts, say, are cotton and knit, and
              stretch.

              Non-stretchy fibers, such as silk, cotton, and linen
              can be knit.
              The knit fabric formed by most modern knitters and
              knitting machines, too, is stretchy, no matter the
              fiber.

              My lone experience knitting with silk ('raw' silk) was
              very annoying, as it has no resiliance, which property
              makes knitting wool so much more of a pleasure for me.


              The non-stretchy behavior of early knitted fabrics is
              caused by very tight knitting, so far as I know.
              Even woolen knitting, which has potential stretch from
              fiber and the knit structure, was not meant to
              stretch.

              Fine gauge knitting is not 100%; some wool scoggers
              from the Mary Rose were knit coarsely; I don't know
              their other properties.

              Coarsely knit hats, at least, were then fulled to
              within an inch of their lives, and a nap raised and
              trimmed, like some woven woolens.

              I'd recommend find Richard Rutt A History of Hand
              Knitting (try local libraries &/or local fiber geeks)
              to get a good general background. Probably the best
              book out there on knitting history.


              Ann in CT



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            • borderlands15213
              ... Agreed... I was taking the lady s word for the lack of stretchiness, and if you ll review my post [above] I had said ...n t stretch, despite being
              Message 6 of 22 , Jul 9, 2007
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                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Ann Catelli <elvestoorder@...>
                wrote:
                >
                >
                > --- borderlands15213 <borderlands15213@...>
                > wrote:
                >
                > > I don't knit, at least not much.
                > > I recall, however, a lady in my town who was for a
                > > while doing
                > > volunteer work through a program with her church, in
                > > which various of
                > > the parish were engaged in knitting bandages for
                > > lepers (that's what
                > > she said--- ) and they *had* to be made of cotton
                > > yarn because they
                > > wouldn't stretch, despite being knitted.
                > > So, if a belt were knitted of linen? Of hemp? Of
                > > silk? None of those is stretchy?....
                > >
                > > Yseult the Gentle
                >
                > But your t-shirts, say, are cotton and knit, and
                > stretch.
                >
                Agreed... I was taking the lady's word for the lack of stretchiness,
                and if you'll review my post [above] I had said "...n't stretch,
                despite being knitted." In view of your observations, below,
                regarding early knitting, is it possible these "bandages" were also
                being very tightly knitted?

                > Non-stretchy fibers, such as silk, cotton, and linen
                > can be knit.
                > The knit fabric formed by most modern knitters and
                > knitting machines, too, is stretchy, no matter the
                > fiber.
                >
                ><<snipped>>>
                >
                > The non-stretchy behavior of early knitted fabrics is
                > caused by very tight knitting, so far as I know.
                > Even woolen knitting, which has potential stretch from
                > fiber and the knit structure, was not meant to
                > stretch.

                How would that be achieved, this very tight knitting? Gauge of
                needles, or tension, or both?
                >
                > Fine gauge knitting is not 100%; some wool scoggers
                > from the Mary Rose were knit coarsely; I don't know
                > their other properties.

                <<snipped>>
                >
                > I'd recommend find Richard Rutt A History of Hand
                > Knitting (try local libraries &/or local fiber geeks)
                > to get a good general background. Probably the best
                > book out there on knitting history.
                >

                ...another post-Pennsic project....

                Thank you, Ann, for your insights and thoughtful commentary.

                Yseult the Gentle
              • Rebecca Klingbeil
                ... She s probably thinking of the cotton crochet yarn that they make doillies out of - it is not particularly stretchy though the knitting would give it
                Message 7 of 22 , Jul 10, 2007
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                  >
                  > But your t-shirts, say, are cotton and knit, and
                  > stretch.
                  >
                  > Non-stretchy fibers, such as silk, cotton, and linen
                  > can be knit.
                  > The knit fabric formed by most modern knitters and
                  > knitting machines, too, is stretchy, no matter the
                  > fiber.

                  She's probably thinking of the cotton "crochet" yarn
                  that they make doillies out of - it is not
                  particularly "stretchy" though the knitting would give
                  it some "give". This is just a "guess", mind you.

                  [snip]
                  > >
                  > Ann in CT
                  >

                  My only comment on this, as a knitter rather than a
                  researcher, is that if you were going to "knit" a
                  belt, wouldn't it make sense to felt it afterwards?

                  Felting would remove most of the "sproing" and give
                  you a nice surface for decoration.

                  Leofwynn
                • Ann Catelli
                  ... know. ... to ... I d go with answer c, both. Some of the beautiful multi-colored relic bags, now in Switzerland, iirc, have gauges about modern t-shirts
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jul 10, 2007
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                    --- borderlands15213 <borderlands15213@...>
                    wrote:

                    > > The non-stretchy behavior of early knitted fabrics
                    > > is caused by very tight knitting, so far as I
                    know.
                    > > Even woolen knitting, which has potential stretch
                    > > from fiber and the knit structure, was not meant
                    to
                    > > stretch.
                    >
                    > How would that be achieved, this very tight
                    > knitting? Gauge of needles, or tension, or both?
                    >
                    > Yseult the Gentle

                    I'd go with answer c, "both."

                    Some of the beautiful multi-colored relic bags, now in
                    Switzerland, iirc, have gauges about modern t-shirts
                    number of stitches per inch. And were, of course,
                    hand-knit. :o
                    Tiny little wires for needles, tightly tensioned silk
                    on the needles.

                    Some wonderful people on the historic knit yahoo group
                    (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricKnit/) have
                    reproduced or been closely inspired by the relic bags.

                    I'll never do it, though. I used to knit quite
                    tightly and was working my way down through the 0
                    sizes in needles (0 is 2.25mm, 00 is smaller, and all
                    the way down to 11/0 (0.25mm) is available for sale)
                    when I developed Carpal Tunnel Syndrome from knitting
                    too much. bad plan.

                    Still smaller modern knitting may be seen at
                    <http://www.bugknits.com/>, and the supplies she has
                    includes the above-mentioned 11/0 needles; she sells
                    Up to size 5/0(1mm) steel double-pointed.
                    So it's still possible.

                    I recommend the historic knit list highly, as they do
                    try to document what/where/when as accurately as may
                    be. Their time period is up to 50 years ago, with
                    outposts of 19th, 18th, and medieval enthusiasts in
                    the group.

                    Ann in CT
                    stopping before I ramble even further



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                  • borderlands15213
                    ... You are a very wicked woman, you know, tempting me this way with yet another list *and* another set of skills to learn! And I ve been so good, lately,
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jul 11, 2007
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                      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Ann Catelli <elvestoorder@...>
                      wrote:
                      > >
                      > > How would that be achieved, this very tight
                      > > knitting? Gauge of needles, or tension, or both?
                      >
                      > I'd go with answer c, "both."
                      <<<<snipped>>>
                      >
                      > I recommend the historic knit list highly, as they do
                      > try to document what/where/when as accurately as may
                      > be. Their time period is up to 50 years ago, with
                      > outposts of 19th, 18th, and medieval enthusiasts in
                      > the group.
                      >
                      > Ann in CT
                      > stopping before I ramble even further
                      >

                      You are a very wicked woman, you know, tempting me this way with yet
                      another list *and* another set of skills to learn! And I've been so
                      good, lately, unsubscribing from many of those lists I haven't read or
                      don't read as often or as thoroughly as I ought!
                      *Especially* when I'm so far behind on so many projects in so many
                      other areas, already begun, too.
                      Very, very wicked....

                      Yseult the Gentle
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                      > Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your
                      story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
                      > http://sims.yahoo.com/
                      >
                    • Ann Catelli
                      ... Ann in CT makes a curtsey modestly p.s. I knit enough Monday night that my CTS is flaring up--don t go that far! ac
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jul 11, 2007
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                        --- borderlands15213 wrote:

                        > > Ann wrote
                        > > historic knit list
                        >
                        > You are a very wicked woman, you know, tempting me
                        > this way with yet
                        > another list *and* another set of skills to learn!
                        > And I've been so
                        > good, lately, unsubscribing from many of those lists
                        > I haven't read or
                        > don't read as often or as thoroughly as I ought!
                        > *Especially* when I'm so far behind on so many
                        > projects in so many
                        > other areas, already begun, too.
                        > Very, very wicked....
                        >
                        > Yseult the Gentle

                        Ann in CT makes a curtsey modestly

                        p.s. I knit enough Monday night that my CTS is flaring
                        up--don't go that far! ac



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                      • Rosie (aka Nawojka)
                        ... You know you want to! Actually it is a really good list. I ve been reading it for months now, and I can t even knit! But finally my grandmother is coming
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jul 12, 2007
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                          > > I recommend the historic knit list highly, as they do
                          > > try to document what/where/when as accurately as may
                          > > be. Their time period is up to 50 years ago, with
                          > > outposts of 19th, 18th, and medieval enthusiasts in
                          > > the group.
                          > >
                          > > Ann in CT
                          > You are a very wicked woman, you know, tempting me this way with yet
                          > another list *and* another set of skills to learn!
                          > Yseult the Gentle


                          You know you want to! Actually it is a really good list. I've been
                          reading it for months now, and I can't even knit! But finally my
                          grandmother is coming to our A&S meeting tomorrow to be our
                          first "guest lecturer" and start teaching us.
                          Rosie
                        • borderlands15213
                          ... wrote: ... *Another* wicked woman! And enabler... ... And sneaky, seductive, appealing-making.... What is this
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jul 13, 2007
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                            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Rosie (aka Nawojka)"
                            <Rosie_0801@...> wrote:
                            <<snipped>>
                            > > You are a very wicked woman, you know, tempting me this way with yet
                            > > another list *and* another set of skills to learn!
                            > > Yseult the Gentle
                            >
                            >
                            > You know you want to!

                            *Another* wicked woman! And enabler...

                            >Actually it is a really good list. <<snipped>>

                            And sneaky, seductive, appealing-making....
                            <shakes head> What is this Currently Medieval World coming to!!!

                            Yseult the Gentle
                          • Beth and Bob Matney
                            I am collecting images of period potter s wheels. There is, of course, the one on page 277 of Agricola, Georg, Herbert Hoover, and Lou Henry Hoover. De Re
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jul 13, 2007
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                              I am collecting images of period potter's wheels. There is, of
                              course, the one on page 277 of

                              Agricola, Georg, Herbert Hoover, and Lou Henry Hoover. De Re
                              Metallica. New York: Dover, 1986.

                              but I'm looking for any other images. If you know of any existing or
                              archaeological finds that would be even better.

                              TIA
                              Beth
                            • lenastrid
                              ... Is that the one of the female potter in her sleeveless shift? (seen here:http://it.geocities.com/a_pollett/cards23.htm) If not, there s another one for
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jul 16, 2007
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                                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Beth and Bob Matney <bmatney@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > I am collecting images of period potter's wheels. There is, of
                                > course, the one on page 277 of
                                >
                                > Agricola, Georg, Herbert Hoover, and Lou Henry Hoover. De Re
                                > Metallica. New York: Dover, 1986.
                                >

                                Is that the one of the female potter in her sleeveless shift? (seen
                                here:http://it.geocities.com/a_pollett/cards23.htm)

                                If not, there's another one for you.

                                /Lena
                              • Beth and Bob Matney
                                ... Lena, Thank you! I had not seen this site before and it is new potter image for me. Agricola s image is of a man and the wheel is a bit different. Beth
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jul 16, 2007
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                                  >Is that the one of the female potter in her sleeveless shift? (seen
                                  >here:http://it.geocities.com/a_pollett/cards23.htm

                                  Lena,

                                  Thank you! I had not seen this site before and it is new potter image
                                  for me. Agricola's image is of a man and the wheel is a bit different.

                                  Beth
                                • xina007eu
                                  ... or ... Hi Beth, here s a 16h century one: http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Eygentliche_Beschreibung_Aller_St%C3% A4nde_auff_Erden:Der_Hafner A Greek wheel, an
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jul 20, 2007
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                                    --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Beth and Bob Matney
                                    <bmatney@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I am collecting images of period potter's wheels. There is, of
                                    > course, the one on page 277 of
                                    >
                                    > Agricola, Georg, Herbert Hoover, and Lou Henry Hoover. De Re
                                    > Metallica. New York: Dover, 1986.
                                    >
                                    > but I'm looking for any other images. If you know of any existing
                                    or
                                    > archaeological finds that would be even better.
                                    >
                                    > TIA
                                    > Beth
                                    >

                                    Hi Beth,
                                    here's a 16h century one:
                                    http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Eygentliche_Beschreibung_Aller_St%C3%
                                    A4nde_auff_Erden:Der_Hafner

                                    A Greek wheel, an Egyptian one, and reconstructions of a Roman and a
                                    Meedieval one (basically the same type as in the woodcut from the
                                    Ständebuch).

                                    Hope that helps!

                                    Best regards,

                                    Christina
                                  • Beth and Bob Matney
                                    ... I could not find then from the link... it gave an empty page. What were your search words? (My German is a bit rusty) Beth
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jul 20, 2007
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                                      At 12:57 PM 7/20/2007, Christina wrote:
                                      >here's a 16h century one:
                                      >http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Eygentliche_Beschreibung_Aller_St%C3%4nde_auff_Erden:Der_Hafner
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >A Greek wheel, an Egyptian one, and reconstructions of a Roman and a
                                      >Meedieval one (basically the same type as in the woodcut from the
                                      >Ständebuch).

                                      I could not find then from the link... it gave an
                                      empty page. What were your search words? (My German is a bit rusty)

                                      Beth
                                    • xina007eu
                                      ... 4nde_auff_Erden:Der_Hafner ... a ... Go to http://de.wikisource.org then search for Ständebuch which should take you to
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jul 24, 2007
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                                        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Beth and Bob Matney
                                        <bmatney@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > At 12:57 PM 7/20/2007, Christina wrote:
                                        > >here's a 16h century one:
                                        > >http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Eygentliche_Beschreibung_Aller_St%C3%
                                        4nde_auff_Erden:Der_Hafner
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >A Greek wheel, an Egyptian one, and reconstructions of a Roman and
                                        a
                                        > >Meedieval one (basically the same type as in the woodcut from the
                                        > >Ständebuch).
                                        >
                                        > I could not find then from the link... it gave an
                                        > empty page. What were your search words? (My German is a bit rusty)
                                        >
                                        > Beth
                                        >

                                        Go to
                                        http://de.wikisource.org
                                        then search for
                                        Ständebuch
                                        which should take you to
                                        http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/St%C3%A4ndebuch
                                        then click
                                        Der Hafner
                                        (third column, 6th from bottom)

                                        Best regards,

                                        Christina
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