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Belts

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  • Park McKellop
    ... especially white knight s belts in the SCA and why some are big and long, some times to the point of having to be hitched up over the waist to prevent
    Message 1 of 22 , Jul 3, 2007
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      >Anyone care to document the current fashion of arming belts -
      especially white knight's belts in the SCA and why some are big and
      long, some times to the point of having to be hitched up over the
      waist to prevent tripping?

      Henrik of Havn

      Long belts, even as long as are worn here, are certainly documentable. There are plenty of effigies showing them from the 13thC, and I think I can find pictures into at least the late 15thC with long belts. The broad loops ("Reenactors Knots" ;-) ) are fairly common as well. Considering the number of very decorated buckles and straps, that would be the simplest way to show them off. Woven belts (inkle/card) are probably way underrepresented in the SCA. Leather belts probably weren't as common as they are now.

      I've been thinking about this since you posted, and I think that belts were roughly equivalent to ties today.

      I ran across a reference to white belts for knights, and red for squires in (I think) 15thC French literature. Unfortunately, it was only logged in the 'that's cool, we're doing something right' portion of the brain instead of the "document the source" section. ;-)

      Alcyoneus


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    • Natasha Laity Snyder
      What about knitted belts? A possiblility? Documented? Tangwystel
      Message 2 of 22 , Jul 4, 2007
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        What about knitted belts? A possiblility? Documented?

        Tangwystel
      • Despair Bear
        ... Early period saxon comes to mind, card woven belts. Say around 900 made from linen or wool, possibly silk?. Not as long as the traditional SCA belts and
        Message 3 of 22 , Jul 4, 2007
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          --- Natasha Laity Snyder <tangwystel@...>
          wrote:

          > What about knitted belts? A possiblility?
          > Documented?
          >
          > Tangwystel
          >


          Early period saxon comes to mind, card woven belts.
          Say around 900 made from linen or wool, possibly
          silk?. Not as long as the traditional "SCA belts" and
          1 inch wide or less.


          Godric




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        • Amy Heilveil
          Transylvanian, Walachian, and Moldavian belts - 6 inches wide and wider. Not seen as long as they are tucked or held in some manner completely around the
          Message 4 of 22 , Jul 4, 2007
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            Transylvanian, Walachian, and Moldavian belts - 6 inches wide and
            wider. Not seen as long as they are tucked or held in some manner
            completely around the waist. No dangling.

            Smiles,
            Despina de la who knew?

            On 7/4/07, Natasha Laity Snyder <tangwystel@...> wrote:
            > What about knitted belts? A possiblility? Documented?
            >
            > Tangwystel
            >
            >
            > ----------------------------------------------------
            > This is the Authentic SCA eGroup
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >


            --
            www.theskilledquill.com
            Beautiful documents for joyous occasions
          • Ann Catelli
            ... Which are definitely not knitted. Off-hand, I would say that knitting is a technique not well-suited to belts. Even the not-stretchy sort of knitting, done
            Message 5 of 22 , Jul 5, 2007
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              --- Despair Bear <despairbear@...> wrote:

              >
              > --- Natasha Laity Snyder <tangwystel@...>
              > wrote:
              >
              > > What about knitted belts? A possiblility?
              > > Documented?
              > >
              > > Tangwystel
              >
              > Early period saxon comes to mind, card woven belts.
              > Say around 900 made from linen or wool, possibly
              > silk?. Not as long as the traditional "SCA belts"
              > and
              > 1 inch wide or less.
              >
              >
              > Godric

              Which are definitely not knitted.

              Off-hand, I would say that knitting is a technique not
              well-suited to belts.
              Even the not-stretchy sort of knitting, done very
              tightly, would not be a good candidate to my mind.
              Most, if not all, of the knitting done until the late
              eighteenth century was very tightly made and not a
              stretchy material.

              There exists a fragment of knitting from Egypt,
              13-14th century, that is a long, skinny tube fragment,
              which does suggest, at least, a belt. This is from my
              unreliable memory, try Tissus d'Egypt for a possible
              source.

              Ann in CT



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            • Ann Catelli
              ... What time frame, here, please? Ann in CT ____________________________________________________________________________________ Boardwalk for $500? In 2007?
              Message 6 of 22 , Jul 5, 2007
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                --- Amy Heilveil <amyheilveil@...> wrote:

                > Transylvanian, Walachian, and Moldavian belts - 6
                > inches wide and
                > wider. Not seen as long as they are tucked or held
                > in some manner
                > completely around the waist. No dangling.
                >
                > Smiles,
                > Despina de la who knew?
                >
                > On 7/4/07, Natasha Laity Snyder
                > <tangwystel@...> wrote:
                > > What about knitted belts? A possiblility?
                > Documented?
                > >
                > > Tangwystel

                What time frame, here, please?

                Ann in CT



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              • Amy Heilveil
                Okay, I messed up. After a bit of sleep and the cobwebs cleared... those of which I spoke aren t knitted, they re woven. My sincere apologies. Despina de la
                Message 7 of 22 , Jul 5, 2007
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                  Okay, I messed up. After a bit of sleep and the cobwebs cleared...
                  those of which I spoke aren't knitted, they're woven. My sincere
                  apologies.

                  Despina de la sleep deprivation coupled with packing is not a good
                  mode to try thinking



                  > What time frame, here, please?
                  >
                  > Ann in CT
                • borderlands15213
                  ... Very curious am I, now. I don t knit, at least not much (I know knit stitch and purl stitch and that s great, except I haven t learned how to cast on
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jul 6, 2007
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                    --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Ann Catelli <elvestoorder@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > --- Despair Bear <despairbear@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    > > --- Natasha Laity Snyder <tangwystel@...>
                    > > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > What about knitted belts? A possiblility?
                    > > > Documented?
                    > > >
                    > > > Tangwystel
                    > >
                    > > Early period saxon comes to mind, card woven belts.
                    > > Say around 900 made from linen or wool, possibly
                    > > silk?. Not as long as the traditional "SCA belts"
                    > > and
                    > > 1 inch wide or less.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Godric
                    >
                    > Which are definitely not knitted.
                    >
                    > Off-hand, I would say that knitting is a technique not
                    > well-suited to belts.
                    > Even the not-stretchy sort of knitting, done very
                    > tightly, would not be a good candidate to my mind.
                    > Most, if not all, of the knitting done until the late
                    > eighteenth century was very tightly made and not a
                    > stretchy material.
                    <<<snipped>>>
                    >
                    > Ann in CT
                    >

                    Very curious am I, now.
                    I don't knit, at least not much (I know knit stitch and purl stitch
                    and that's great, except I haven't learned how to cast on correctly,
                    no matter which method you talk about) so I admit there's a great
                    deal I don't know.
                    I recall, however, a lady in my town who was for a while doing
                    volunteer work through a program with her church, in which various of
                    the parish were engaged in knitting bandages for lepers (that's what
                    she said--- ) and they *had* to be made of cotton yarn because they
                    wouldn't stretch, despite being knitted.
                    So, if a belt were knitted of linen? Of hemp? Of silk? None of
                    those is stretchy?....

                    Sort of ruminating, but without much base of knowledge...

                    Yseult the Gentle
                  • Ann Catelli
                    ... But your t-shirts, say, are cotton and knit, and stretch. Non-stretchy fibers, such as silk, cotton, and linen can be knit. The knit fabric formed by most
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jul 6, 2007
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                      --- borderlands15213 <borderlands15213@...>
                      wrote:

                      > I don't knit, at least not much.
                      > I recall, however, a lady in my town who was for a
                      > while doing
                      > volunteer work through a program with her church, in
                      > which various of
                      > the parish were engaged in knitting bandages for
                      > lepers (that's what
                      > she said--- ) and they *had* to be made of cotton
                      > yarn because they
                      > wouldn't stretch, despite being knitted.
                      > So, if a belt were knitted of linen? Of hemp? Of
                      > silk? None of those is stretchy?....
                      >
                      > Yseult the Gentle

                      But your t-shirts, say, are cotton and knit, and
                      stretch.

                      Non-stretchy fibers, such as silk, cotton, and linen
                      can be knit.
                      The knit fabric formed by most modern knitters and
                      knitting machines, too, is stretchy, no matter the
                      fiber.

                      My lone experience knitting with silk ('raw' silk) was
                      very annoying, as it has no resiliance, which property
                      makes knitting wool so much more of a pleasure for me.


                      The non-stretchy behavior of early knitted fabrics is
                      caused by very tight knitting, so far as I know.
                      Even woolen knitting, which has potential stretch from
                      fiber and the knit structure, was not meant to
                      stretch.

                      Fine gauge knitting is not 100%; some wool scoggers
                      from the Mary Rose were knit coarsely; I don't know
                      their other properties.

                      Coarsely knit hats, at least, were then fulled to
                      within an inch of their lives, and a nap raised and
                      trimmed, like some woven woolens.

                      I'd recommend find Richard Rutt A History of Hand
                      Knitting (try local libraries &/or local fiber geeks)
                      to get a good general background. Probably the best
                      book out there on knitting history.


                      Ann in CT



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                    • borderlands15213
                      ... Agreed... I was taking the lady s word for the lack of stretchiness, and if you ll review my post [above] I had said ...n t stretch, despite being
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jul 9, 2007
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                        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Ann Catelli <elvestoorder@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > --- borderlands15213 <borderlands15213@...>
                        > wrote:
                        >
                        > > I don't knit, at least not much.
                        > > I recall, however, a lady in my town who was for a
                        > > while doing
                        > > volunteer work through a program with her church, in
                        > > which various of
                        > > the parish were engaged in knitting bandages for
                        > > lepers (that's what
                        > > she said--- ) and they *had* to be made of cotton
                        > > yarn because they
                        > > wouldn't stretch, despite being knitted.
                        > > So, if a belt were knitted of linen? Of hemp? Of
                        > > silk? None of those is stretchy?....
                        > >
                        > > Yseult the Gentle
                        >
                        > But your t-shirts, say, are cotton and knit, and
                        > stretch.
                        >
                        Agreed... I was taking the lady's word for the lack of stretchiness,
                        and if you'll review my post [above] I had said "...n't stretch,
                        despite being knitted." In view of your observations, below,
                        regarding early knitting, is it possible these "bandages" were also
                        being very tightly knitted?

                        > Non-stretchy fibers, such as silk, cotton, and linen
                        > can be knit.
                        > The knit fabric formed by most modern knitters and
                        > knitting machines, too, is stretchy, no matter the
                        > fiber.
                        >
                        ><<snipped>>>
                        >
                        > The non-stretchy behavior of early knitted fabrics is
                        > caused by very tight knitting, so far as I know.
                        > Even woolen knitting, which has potential stretch from
                        > fiber and the knit structure, was not meant to
                        > stretch.

                        How would that be achieved, this very tight knitting? Gauge of
                        needles, or tension, or both?
                        >
                        > Fine gauge knitting is not 100%; some wool scoggers
                        > from the Mary Rose were knit coarsely; I don't know
                        > their other properties.

                        <<snipped>>
                        >
                        > I'd recommend find Richard Rutt A History of Hand
                        > Knitting (try local libraries &/or local fiber geeks)
                        > to get a good general background. Probably the best
                        > book out there on knitting history.
                        >

                        ...another post-Pennsic project....

                        Thank you, Ann, for your insights and thoughtful commentary.

                        Yseult the Gentle
                      • Rebecca Klingbeil
                        ... She s probably thinking of the cotton crochet yarn that they make doillies out of - it is not particularly stretchy though the knitting would give it
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jul 10, 2007
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                          >
                          > But your t-shirts, say, are cotton and knit, and
                          > stretch.
                          >
                          > Non-stretchy fibers, such as silk, cotton, and linen
                          > can be knit.
                          > The knit fabric formed by most modern knitters and
                          > knitting machines, too, is stretchy, no matter the
                          > fiber.

                          She's probably thinking of the cotton "crochet" yarn
                          that they make doillies out of - it is not
                          particularly "stretchy" though the knitting would give
                          it some "give". This is just a "guess", mind you.

                          [snip]
                          > >
                          > Ann in CT
                          >

                          My only comment on this, as a knitter rather than a
                          researcher, is that if you were going to "knit" a
                          belt, wouldn't it make sense to felt it afterwards?

                          Felting would remove most of the "sproing" and give
                          you a nice surface for decoration.

                          Leofwynn
                        • Ann Catelli
                          ... know. ... to ... I d go with answer c, both. Some of the beautiful multi-colored relic bags, now in Switzerland, iirc, have gauges about modern t-shirts
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jul 10, 2007
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                            --- borderlands15213 <borderlands15213@...>
                            wrote:

                            > > The non-stretchy behavior of early knitted fabrics
                            > > is caused by very tight knitting, so far as I
                            know.
                            > > Even woolen knitting, which has potential stretch
                            > > from fiber and the knit structure, was not meant
                            to
                            > > stretch.
                            >
                            > How would that be achieved, this very tight
                            > knitting? Gauge of needles, or tension, or both?
                            >
                            > Yseult the Gentle

                            I'd go with answer c, "both."

                            Some of the beautiful multi-colored relic bags, now in
                            Switzerland, iirc, have gauges about modern t-shirts
                            number of stitches per inch. And were, of course,
                            hand-knit. :o
                            Tiny little wires for needles, tightly tensioned silk
                            on the needles.

                            Some wonderful people on the historic knit yahoo group
                            (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricKnit/) have
                            reproduced or been closely inspired by the relic bags.

                            I'll never do it, though. I used to knit quite
                            tightly and was working my way down through the 0
                            sizes in needles (0 is 2.25mm, 00 is smaller, and all
                            the way down to 11/0 (0.25mm) is available for sale)
                            when I developed Carpal Tunnel Syndrome from knitting
                            too much. bad plan.

                            Still smaller modern knitting may be seen at
                            <http://www.bugknits.com/>, and the supplies she has
                            includes the above-mentioned 11/0 needles; she sells
                            Up to size 5/0(1mm) steel double-pointed.
                            So it's still possible.

                            I recommend the historic knit list highly, as they do
                            try to document what/where/when as accurately as may
                            be. Their time period is up to 50 years ago, with
                            outposts of 19th, 18th, and medieval enthusiasts in
                            the group.

                            Ann in CT
                            stopping before I ramble even further



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                          • borderlands15213
                            ... You are a very wicked woman, you know, tempting me this way with yet another list *and* another set of skills to learn! And I ve been so good, lately,
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jul 11, 2007
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                              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Ann Catelli <elvestoorder@...>
                              wrote:
                              > >
                              > > How would that be achieved, this very tight
                              > > knitting? Gauge of needles, or tension, or both?
                              >
                              > I'd go with answer c, "both."
                              <<<<snipped>>>
                              >
                              > I recommend the historic knit list highly, as they do
                              > try to document what/where/when as accurately as may
                              > be. Their time period is up to 50 years ago, with
                              > outposts of 19th, 18th, and medieval enthusiasts in
                              > the group.
                              >
                              > Ann in CT
                              > stopping before I ramble even further
                              >

                              You are a very wicked woman, you know, tempting me this way with yet
                              another list *and* another set of skills to learn! And I've been so
                              good, lately, unsubscribing from many of those lists I haven't read or
                              don't read as often or as thoroughly as I ought!
                              *Especially* when I'm so far behind on so many projects in so many
                              other areas, already begun, too.
                              Very, very wicked....

                              Yseult the Gentle
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                              > Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your
                              story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
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                              >
                            • Ann Catelli
                              ... Ann in CT makes a curtsey modestly p.s. I knit enough Monday night that my CTS is flaring up--don t go that far! ac
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jul 11, 2007
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                                --- borderlands15213 wrote:

                                > > Ann wrote
                                > > historic knit list
                                >
                                > You are a very wicked woman, you know, tempting me
                                > this way with yet
                                > another list *and* another set of skills to learn!
                                > And I've been so
                                > good, lately, unsubscribing from many of those lists
                                > I haven't read or
                                > don't read as often or as thoroughly as I ought!
                                > *Especially* when I'm so far behind on so many
                                > projects in so many
                                > other areas, already begun, too.
                                > Very, very wicked....
                                >
                                > Yseult the Gentle

                                Ann in CT makes a curtsey modestly

                                p.s. I knit enough Monday night that my CTS is flaring
                                up--don't go that far! ac



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                              • Rosie (aka Nawojka)
                                ... You know you want to! Actually it is a really good list. I ve been reading it for months now, and I can t even knit! But finally my grandmother is coming
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jul 12, 2007
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                                  > > I recommend the historic knit list highly, as they do
                                  > > try to document what/where/when as accurately as may
                                  > > be. Their time period is up to 50 years ago, with
                                  > > outposts of 19th, 18th, and medieval enthusiasts in
                                  > > the group.
                                  > >
                                  > > Ann in CT
                                  > You are a very wicked woman, you know, tempting me this way with yet
                                  > another list *and* another set of skills to learn!
                                  > Yseult the Gentle


                                  You know you want to! Actually it is a really good list. I've been
                                  reading it for months now, and I can't even knit! But finally my
                                  grandmother is coming to our A&S meeting tomorrow to be our
                                  first "guest lecturer" and start teaching us.
                                  Rosie
                                • borderlands15213
                                  ... wrote: ... *Another* wicked woman! And enabler... ... And sneaky, seductive, appealing-making.... What is this
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jul 13, 2007
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                                    --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Rosie (aka Nawojka)"
                                    <Rosie_0801@...> wrote:
                                    <<snipped>>
                                    > > You are a very wicked woman, you know, tempting me this way with yet
                                    > > another list *and* another set of skills to learn!
                                    > > Yseult the Gentle
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > You know you want to!

                                    *Another* wicked woman! And enabler...

                                    >Actually it is a really good list. <<snipped>>

                                    And sneaky, seductive, appealing-making....
                                    <shakes head> What is this Currently Medieval World coming to!!!

                                    Yseult the Gentle
                                  • Beth and Bob Matney
                                    I am collecting images of period potter s wheels. There is, of course, the one on page 277 of Agricola, Georg, Herbert Hoover, and Lou Henry Hoover. De Re
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jul 13, 2007
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                                      I am collecting images of period potter's wheels. There is, of
                                      course, the one on page 277 of

                                      Agricola, Georg, Herbert Hoover, and Lou Henry Hoover. De Re
                                      Metallica. New York: Dover, 1986.

                                      but I'm looking for any other images. If you know of any existing or
                                      archaeological finds that would be even better.

                                      TIA
                                      Beth
                                    • lenastrid
                                      ... Is that the one of the female potter in her sleeveless shift? (seen here:http://it.geocities.com/a_pollett/cards23.htm) If not, there s another one for
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jul 16, 2007
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                                        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Beth and Bob Matney <bmatney@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I am collecting images of period potter's wheels. There is, of
                                        > course, the one on page 277 of
                                        >
                                        > Agricola, Georg, Herbert Hoover, and Lou Henry Hoover. De Re
                                        > Metallica. New York: Dover, 1986.
                                        >

                                        Is that the one of the female potter in her sleeveless shift? (seen
                                        here:http://it.geocities.com/a_pollett/cards23.htm)

                                        If not, there's another one for you.

                                        /Lena
                                      • Beth and Bob Matney
                                        ... Lena, Thank you! I had not seen this site before and it is new potter image for me. Agricola s image is of a man and the wheel is a bit different. Beth
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jul 16, 2007
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                                          >Is that the one of the female potter in her sleeveless shift? (seen
                                          >here:http://it.geocities.com/a_pollett/cards23.htm

                                          Lena,

                                          Thank you! I had not seen this site before and it is new potter image
                                          for me. Agricola's image is of a man and the wheel is a bit different.

                                          Beth
                                        • xina007eu
                                          ... or ... Hi Beth, here s a 16h century one: http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Eygentliche_Beschreibung_Aller_St%C3% A4nde_auff_Erden:Der_Hafner A Greek wheel, an
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Jul 20, 2007
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                                            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Beth and Bob Matney
                                            <bmatney@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > I am collecting images of period potter's wheels. There is, of
                                            > course, the one on page 277 of
                                            >
                                            > Agricola, Georg, Herbert Hoover, and Lou Henry Hoover. De Re
                                            > Metallica. New York: Dover, 1986.
                                            >
                                            > but I'm looking for any other images. If you know of any existing
                                            or
                                            > archaeological finds that would be even better.
                                            >
                                            > TIA
                                            > Beth
                                            >

                                            Hi Beth,
                                            here's a 16h century one:
                                            http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Eygentliche_Beschreibung_Aller_St%C3%
                                            A4nde_auff_Erden:Der_Hafner

                                            A Greek wheel, an Egyptian one, and reconstructions of a Roman and a
                                            Meedieval one (basically the same type as in the woodcut from the
                                            Ständebuch).

                                            Hope that helps!

                                            Best regards,

                                            Christina
                                          • Beth and Bob Matney
                                            ... I could not find then from the link... it gave an empty page. What were your search words? (My German is a bit rusty) Beth
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Jul 20, 2007
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                                              At 12:57 PM 7/20/2007, Christina wrote:
                                              >here's a 16h century one:
                                              >http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Eygentliche_Beschreibung_Aller_St%C3%4nde_auff_Erden:Der_Hafner
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >A Greek wheel, an Egyptian one, and reconstructions of a Roman and a
                                              >Meedieval one (basically the same type as in the woodcut from the
                                              >Ständebuch).

                                              I could not find then from the link... it gave an
                                              empty page. What were your search words? (My German is a bit rusty)

                                              Beth
                                            • xina007eu
                                              ... 4nde_auff_Erden:Der_Hafner ... a ... Go to http://de.wikisource.org then search for Ständebuch which should take you to
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Jul 24, 2007
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                                                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Beth and Bob Matney
                                                <bmatney@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > At 12:57 PM 7/20/2007, Christina wrote:
                                                > >here's a 16h century one:
                                                > >http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Eygentliche_Beschreibung_Aller_St%C3%
                                                4nde_auff_Erden:Der_Hafner
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >A Greek wheel, an Egyptian one, and reconstructions of a Roman and
                                                a
                                                > >Meedieval one (basically the same type as in the woodcut from the
                                                > >Ständebuch).
                                                >
                                                > I could not find then from the link... it gave an
                                                > empty page. What were your search words? (My German is a bit rusty)
                                                >
                                                > Beth
                                                >

                                                Go to
                                                http://de.wikisource.org
                                                then search for
                                                Ständebuch
                                                which should take you to
                                                http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/St%C3%A4ndebuch
                                                then click
                                                Der Hafner
                                                (third column, 6th from bottom)

                                                Best regards,

                                                Christina
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