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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Middle Eastern Question

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  • Janis James
    Terrific help Urtatim, thanks very much. From the email this morning my gentleman is Seljuk. So.... he is Turkish eh? hmmm.....he has a determination to
    Message 1 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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      Terrific help Urtatim, thanks very much.
      From the email this morning my gentleman is Seljuk. So....
      he is Turkish eh? hmmm.....he has a determination to
      follow Persian inspirations.
      So, having the strong Turkish influence there might
      be an opportunity for some minor changes.......more
      elaborate fabrics etc.?
      Thanks again for all your help. Sine

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    • Lilinah
      Greetings: Cool! I ve been admiring the 1186-583 website for quite a while. There s some excellent stuff on it. ... Yes!!! These are really useful pages on the
      Message 2 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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        Greetings:

        Cool! I've been admiring the 1186-583 website for quite a while.
        There's some excellent stuff on it.

        >We have made some seldjuk/turkish/arabic garbs from end of XIIth century here
        >http://www.1186-583.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=21
        >You can see some sharbush style hats here :
        >http://www.1186-583.org/article.php3?id_article=101
        >http://www.1186-583.org/article.php3?id_article=145

        Yes!!! These are really useful pages on the hat i mentioned. I've
        saved them and bookmarked them, but forgot about it when i made my
        recommendations :-(

        >(sorry it is just in French but pictures are useful)

        I can help translate...

        >An excellent article about it is here :
        >http://www.havenonline.com/moas/northstar/vol2no1/An%20Islamic%20Military%20Cap%20(Tarik).htm

        Alas, the illustrations are missing (and from most of the articles on
        this site)... did you (or someone else), by chance, save them?

        --
        Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
        the persona formerly known as Anahita
      • Per Braz
        ... Thanks a lot. I plan to upgrade the website to a new CMS engine before the end of the year, with the possibility to have foreign languages, including
        Message 3 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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          Le mardi 5 juin 2007, Lilinah a écrit :
          > Cool! I've been admiring the 1186-583 website for quite a while.
          > There's some excellent stuff on it.
          Thanks a lot. I plan to upgrade the website to a new CMS engine before the end
          of the year, with the possibility to have foreign languages, including
          English of course. And we haven't pusblished a lot recently as we are working
          hard on a book project to be released for next year. We should begin again to
          put stuff during Summer I think, we have quite some new things to show and a
          lot of ideas :)

          > >(sorry it is just in French but pictures are useful)
          > I can help translate...
          So do I of course :)

          > Alas, the illustrations are missing (and from most of the articles on
          > this site)... did you (or someone else), by chance, save them?
          I don't think
          I will ask on our internal forum, by chance.
          All the best
          Yann aka Per Braz

          --
          Per Braz - perbraz@...
          webmestre http://www.1186-583.org
        • Lilinah
          ... As did many Seljuks after they conquered much of Persia :-) Persian culture was THE culture to emulate - even the Abbasid Arabs copied many aspects of
          Message 4 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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            Sine wrote:
            >From the email this morning my gentleman is Seljuk. So....
            >he is Turkish eh? hmmm.....he has a determination to
            >follow Persian inspirations.

            As did many Seljuks after they conquered much of Persia :-) Persian
            culture was THE culture to emulate - even the 'Abbasid Arabs copied
            many aspects of Persian culture.

            >So, having the strong Turkish influence there might
            >be an opportunity for some minor changes...more
            >elaborate fabrics etc.?

            Unfortunately, the Mongols followed on the heels of the Seljuks and
            were quite destructive, so there's a very limited amount of clothing
            left. There are some garments in modern Turkey, in the Anatolian city
            of Konya, which was the capital city of the Seljuks of Rum in the
            12th& 13th centuries. They're in a museum, the Mevlana Museum,
            dedicated to the famous poet Rumi (so-called because he lived in Rum,
            i.e., a region that had formerly belonged to the "Romans", what the
            Byzantines called themselves). Mevlana Celaleddin (or Jalaluddin)
            Rumi was born in Balkh, a city in medieval Persia, now in
            Afghanistan. His family fled westward to escape the Mongols. He was a
            Sufi, the Mevlevi order, sometimes called "whirling dervishes".

            There are some not-terribly good photos from the museum on-line.
            [http://rubens.anu.edu.au/raid1/turkey2/cd10/konya/mevlana_tekke/MUSEUM/textiles/clothing/%5d
            the graphics are freakin' huge (mostly around 1mg!) but should be helpful.

            As for fabric to use to look royal in, some 2-color damask with small
            patterns might be good. Colors to go for are rich red, golden yellow,
            white, and various shades of indigo blue.

            Another typical early Persian motif is the roundel featuring either a
            mounted warrior (i.e., on horseback) or a "big cat" attacking an
            herbivore (deer, camel, bull, other) and often with a "pearl" border
            (i.e., having a circumference of small solid circles). From what i
            can tell, roundels were still featured on lampas weave fabric during
            the Seljuk period.

            These sorts of patterns are admittedly hard to find in modern fabric
            - but you never know, you might find some. A few years ago i actually
            found some white cellulose rayon with indigo printed cintamani (a
            typical royal Ottoman pattern). The scale was wrong (it was small and
            Ottomans liked BIG patterns) but i HAD to get some. It's the only
            time in 8 years i've seen modern commercial cintamani.

            --
            Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
            the persona formerly known as Anahita
          • Lilinah
            ... Here are a couple Seljuk period fabric fragments i found some time ago at the website of the Cleveland Museum of Art: -- Lampas weave fabric with animals
            Message 5 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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              I wrote:
              >As for fabric to use to look royal in, some 2-color damask with
              >small patterns might be good. Colors to go for are rich red, golden
              >yellow, white, and various shades of indigo blue.
              >
              >Another typical early Persian motif is the roundel featuring either
              >a mounted warrior (i.e., on horseback) or a "big cat" attacking an
              >herbivore (deer, camel, bull, other) and often with a "pearl" border
              >(i.e., having a circumference of small solid circles). From what i
              >can tell, roundels were still featured on lampas weave fabric during
              >the Seljuk period.

              Here are a couple Seljuk period fabric fragments i found some time
              ago at the website of the Cleveland Museum of Art:
              -- Lampas weave fabric with animals in roundels
              [http://www.clevelandart.org/Explore/departmentWork.asp?deptgroup=3&recNo=299]
              -- Lampas weave fabric of simurghs in medium indigo blue silk and metallic gold
              [http://www.clevelandart.org/Explore/work.asp?searchText=1945%2E14&recNo=0&tab=2&display=]

              --
              Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
              the persona formerly known as Anahita
            • Lilinah
              Whew! I finally found the thumbnail pages for those huge Mevlana Tekke files.
              Message 6 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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                Whew! I finally found the "thumbnail" pages for those huge Mevlana Tekke files.
                http://rubens.anu.edu.au/turkey/konya/mevlana_tekke/museum/textiles/clothing/index.php?page=1
                and
                http://rubens.anu.edu.au/turkey/konya/mevlana_tekke/museum/textiles/clothing/index.php?page=2

                So, if you've been holding back, now you can preview before clicking...
                --
                Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                the persona formerly known as Anahita
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