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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Middle Eastern Question

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  • Lilinah
    ... Also called selHam in Morocco (i use the capital H to indicate a strong H sound). I ve found evidence for them in North Africa going back to Roman times,
    Message 1 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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      Unsigned wrote:
      >You might look at Burnoose. In my research for a play they are a
      >popular alternative to the turban. Though I dont know if they go so
      >far back to 1000 ce.

      Also called selHam in Morocco (i use the capital H to indicate a
      strong H sound). I've found evidence for them in North Africa going
      back to Roman times, but i haven't read about or seen them outside
      North Africa.

      And in art from Central Asia - original home of the Seljuks, this
      gentleman's culture - i've seen no suggestion that a hooded cloak was
      part of the clothing system. Nor have i seen any in any Persian
      culture from Greco-Roman times to the 17th century. What i see over
      and over are front-opening "coats".

      If you have an historical source for Central Asian hooded cloaks,
      please share, because i've got one that would be comfy to wear for
      those times i'm wearing Persian rather than North African clothing at
      events.

      --
      Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
      the persona formerly known as Anahita
    • Per Braz
      Greetings ! We have made some seldjuk/turkish/arabic garbs from end of XIIth century here http://www.1186-583.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=21 You can see some
      Message 2 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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        Greetings !
        We have made some seldjuk/turkish/arabic garbs from end of XIIth century here
        http://www.1186-583.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=21
        You can see some sharbush style hats here :
        http://www.1186-583.org/article.php3?id_article=101
        http://www.1186-583.org/article.php3?id_article=145
        (sorry it is just in French but pictures are useful)
        An excellent article about it is here :
        http://www.havenonline.com/moas/northstar/vol2no1/An%20Islamic%20Military%20Cap%20
        (Tarik).htm
        Atakan al Vefa is an a Seldjuk character, Zahr is Turkish but with some
        Arabic/Kurdish/Turkmen influences.
        Hope it can help.
        Yann aka Per Braz aka Abu Hamir

        --
        Per Braz - perbraz@...
        webmestre http://www.1186-583.org
      • Janis James
        Terrific help Urtatim, thanks very much. From the email this morning my gentleman is Seljuk. So.... he is Turkish eh? hmmm.....he has a determination to
        Message 3 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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          Terrific help Urtatim, thanks very much.
          From the email this morning my gentleman is Seljuk. So....
          he is Turkish eh? hmmm.....he has a determination to
          follow Persian inspirations.
          So, having the strong Turkish influence there might
          be an opportunity for some minor changes.......more
          elaborate fabrics etc.?
          Thanks again for all your help. Sine

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        • Lilinah
          Greetings: Cool! I ve been admiring the 1186-583 website for quite a while. There s some excellent stuff on it. ... Yes!!! These are really useful pages on the
          Message 4 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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            Greetings:

            Cool! I've been admiring the 1186-583 website for quite a while.
            There's some excellent stuff on it.

            >We have made some seldjuk/turkish/arabic garbs from end of XIIth century here
            >http://www.1186-583.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=21
            >You can see some sharbush style hats here :
            >http://www.1186-583.org/article.php3?id_article=101
            >http://www.1186-583.org/article.php3?id_article=145

            Yes!!! These are really useful pages on the hat i mentioned. I've
            saved them and bookmarked them, but forgot about it when i made my
            recommendations :-(

            >(sorry it is just in French but pictures are useful)

            I can help translate...

            >An excellent article about it is here :
            >http://www.havenonline.com/moas/northstar/vol2no1/An%20Islamic%20Military%20Cap%20(Tarik).htm

            Alas, the illustrations are missing (and from most of the articles on
            this site)... did you (or someone else), by chance, save them?

            --
            Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
            the persona formerly known as Anahita
          • Per Braz
            ... Thanks a lot. I plan to upgrade the website to a new CMS engine before the end of the year, with the possibility to have foreign languages, including
            Message 5 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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              Le mardi 5 juin 2007, Lilinah a écrit :
              > Cool! I've been admiring the 1186-583 website for quite a while.
              > There's some excellent stuff on it.
              Thanks a lot. I plan to upgrade the website to a new CMS engine before the end
              of the year, with the possibility to have foreign languages, including
              English of course. And we haven't pusblished a lot recently as we are working
              hard on a book project to be released for next year. We should begin again to
              put stuff during Summer I think, we have quite some new things to show and a
              lot of ideas :)

              > >(sorry it is just in French but pictures are useful)
              > I can help translate...
              So do I of course :)

              > Alas, the illustrations are missing (and from most of the articles on
              > this site)... did you (or someone else), by chance, save them?
              I don't think
              I will ask on our internal forum, by chance.
              All the best
              Yann aka Per Braz

              --
              Per Braz - perbraz@...
              webmestre http://www.1186-583.org
            • Lilinah
              ... As did many Seljuks after they conquered much of Persia :-) Persian culture was THE culture to emulate - even the Abbasid Arabs copied many aspects of
              Message 6 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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                Sine wrote:
                >From the email this morning my gentleman is Seljuk. So....
                >he is Turkish eh? hmmm.....he has a determination to
                >follow Persian inspirations.

                As did many Seljuks after they conquered much of Persia :-) Persian
                culture was THE culture to emulate - even the 'Abbasid Arabs copied
                many aspects of Persian culture.

                >So, having the strong Turkish influence there might
                >be an opportunity for some minor changes...more
                >elaborate fabrics etc.?

                Unfortunately, the Mongols followed on the heels of the Seljuks and
                were quite destructive, so there's a very limited amount of clothing
                left. There are some garments in modern Turkey, in the Anatolian city
                of Konya, which was the capital city of the Seljuks of Rum in the
                12th& 13th centuries. They're in a museum, the Mevlana Museum,
                dedicated to the famous poet Rumi (so-called because he lived in Rum,
                i.e., a region that had formerly belonged to the "Romans", what the
                Byzantines called themselves). Mevlana Celaleddin (or Jalaluddin)
                Rumi was born in Balkh, a city in medieval Persia, now in
                Afghanistan. His family fled westward to escape the Mongols. He was a
                Sufi, the Mevlevi order, sometimes called "whirling dervishes".

                There are some not-terribly good photos from the museum on-line.
                [http://rubens.anu.edu.au/raid1/turkey2/cd10/konya/mevlana_tekke/MUSEUM/textiles/clothing/%5d
                the graphics are freakin' huge (mostly around 1mg!) but should be helpful.

                As for fabric to use to look royal in, some 2-color damask with small
                patterns might be good. Colors to go for are rich red, golden yellow,
                white, and various shades of indigo blue.

                Another typical early Persian motif is the roundel featuring either a
                mounted warrior (i.e., on horseback) or a "big cat" attacking an
                herbivore (deer, camel, bull, other) and often with a "pearl" border
                (i.e., having a circumference of small solid circles). From what i
                can tell, roundels were still featured on lampas weave fabric during
                the Seljuk period.

                These sorts of patterns are admittedly hard to find in modern fabric
                - but you never know, you might find some. A few years ago i actually
                found some white cellulose rayon with indigo printed cintamani (a
                typical royal Ottoman pattern). The scale was wrong (it was small and
                Ottomans liked BIG patterns) but i HAD to get some. It's the only
                time in 8 years i've seen modern commercial cintamani.

                --
                Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                the persona formerly known as Anahita
              • Lilinah
                ... Here are a couple Seljuk period fabric fragments i found some time ago at the website of the Cleveland Museum of Art: -- Lampas weave fabric with animals
                Message 7 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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                  I wrote:
                  >As for fabric to use to look royal in, some 2-color damask with
                  >small patterns might be good. Colors to go for are rich red, golden
                  >yellow, white, and various shades of indigo blue.
                  >
                  >Another typical early Persian motif is the roundel featuring either
                  >a mounted warrior (i.e., on horseback) or a "big cat" attacking an
                  >herbivore (deer, camel, bull, other) and often with a "pearl" border
                  >(i.e., having a circumference of small solid circles). From what i
                  >can tell, roundels were still featured on lampas weave fabric during
                  >the Seljuk period.

                  Here are a couple Seljuk period fabric fragments i found some time
                  ago at the website of the Cleveland Museum of Art:
                  -- Lampas weave fabric with animals in roundels
                  [http://www.clevelandart.org/Explore/departmentWork.asp?deptgroup=3&recNo=299]
                  -- Lampas weave fabric of simurghs in medium indigo blue silk and metallic gold
                  [http://www.clevelandart.org/Explore/work.asp?searchText=1945%2E14&recNo=0&tab=2&display=]

                  --
                  Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                  the persona formerly known as Anahita
                • Lilinah
                  Whew! I finally found the thumbnail pages for those huge Mevlana Tekke files.
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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                    Whew! I finally found the "thumbnail" pages for those huge Mevlana Tekke files.
                    http://rubens.anu.edu.au/turkey/konya/mevlana_tekke/museum/textiles/clothing/index.php?page=1
                    and
                    http://rubens.anu.edu.au/turkey/konya/mevlana_tekke/museum/textiles/clothing/index.php?page=2

                    So, if you've been holding back, now you can preview before clicking...
                    --
                    Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                    the persona formerly known as Anahita
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