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Re: Middle Eastern Question

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  • j_southwell2002
    MODERATOR NOTE (please sign all posts to the list and please do not top post to this list, thank you) Despina moderator You might look at Burnoose. In my
    Message 1 of 21 , Jun 4, 2007
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      MODERATOR NOTE (please sign all posts to the list and please do not top post to this list, thank you) Despina moderator

      You might look at Burnoose. In my research for a play they are a
      popular alternative to the turban. Though I dont know if they go so
      far back to 1000 ce.
    • Lilinah
      ... OK, if he s Seljuk, he s Turkish. They conquered a large part of Persia, but they are Turkish linguistically, ethnically, and culturally. In art i see that
      Message 2 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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        Sine wrote:
        >I understand him to be Seljuk........now I'm not actually positive
        >about that, just seem to remember that in conversation, can't
        >contact him until tomorrow to clarify.

        OK, if he's Seljuk, he's Turkish. They conquered a large part of
        Persia, but they are Turkish linguistically, ethnically, and
        culturally.

        In art i see that he would have adapted to wear a turban as royalty,
        but if he's dead set against it, a fur lined had is the next best
        thing (yeah, right, i'm sure he'll love that idea :-) You can fake it
        by making a cap and have the fur on the outside...

        One hat (but it's for mortals less that the "King") is a basic cap
        with a rectangular band around the head and the top made of triangles
        - six would be best, although i've seen simplified versions with only
        four, but c'mon, if he's royalty he deserves the best :-) Make the
        parts of the hat that show of the richest jacquard silk fabric you
        can fine - since it won't use a lot. Then that simple band around the
        head should be of a nice rich dark brown fur - you can make it on the
        outside only so it won't be so hot, with a simple comfy fabric on the
        inside (cotton or linen).

        One feature of royal caps, at least in the Minai style Seljuk art (i
        have a real soft spot for Minai style art) is a sort of triangle
        shape in the center front that sticks up and is gold, at least in
        paintings, and appears to be backed or edged with fur. In reality it
        might have been gold metal, but if you can find gilded leather that
        might be less uncomfortable and quicker to make.

        This web page has some nice Minai style manuscript illuminations,
        although they're a bit fuzzy.
        http://www.geocities.com/egfroth1/Seljuqs.htm

        The large painting about 2/5 of the way down the page with the caption:
        "A Seljuq court, from Kitab al Diryaq (the Book of Antidotes) by
        Pseudo-Gallen, probably from Iraq, mid 13th century. National
        Bibliothek, Vienna." (i figure that should say Pseudo-Galen)
        shows the ruler in very large size almost centered. He's wearing that
        hat i mentioned.

        Granted, this is about 200 years later than you're looking for, but
        clothing for rulers was often more conservative than that for
        ordinary folks, so it may be close to what he could use.

        Those pointed white hats with the brims do not appear to be for
        royalty, and in period it was always important to look the part,
        whatever one's part was. Personal comfort of royalty when out in
        public didn't matter as much as looking impressive, although in
        private i'm sure royalty could be a bit more informal.

        In some versions of the Maqamat of al-Hariri produced in Seljuk
        controlled Syria in a Seljuk influenced style, shows some men with
        head wraps around caps - one in particular looks like a qalansuwa - a
        somewhat tall somewhat pointy hat, generally associated with the
        ruling class.

        In a copy of Kalila wa-Dimna dated to 1220 and produced in Seljuk
        controlled Baghdad all the human men appear to be wearing either
        turbans or head wraps :-( Many of the illustrations from this book,
        Ms. arabe 3465,

        Both books are on-line at the site of the Biblioteque Nationale de France
        http://expositions.bnf.fr/livrarab/
        I seem to recall that the section in English has a lot fewer pieces
        of art than the section in French.

        Another Seljuk book, the story of Warka wa-Gulshah, the tale of two
        lovers (his name is variously Romanized into Warqa and Varka; as for
        her name, "Gul" means "rose"), is also from the early 13th century. I
        can only assume these early 13th C. works were all pre-Mongol
        invasion. Again, nearly all the men are shown wearing turbans or head
        wraps. Most of the illustrations are on-line, scanned from a book
        that reproduced them mostly in black-and-white (alas).
        http://www.geocities.com/qilich/varga/

        There are some color pictures from it at:
        http://www.ee.bilkent.edu.tr/~history/early.html

        And there are some illustrations from the 1300s... some before the
        Mongol invasion and some after here:
        www.ehttp://e.bilkent.edu.tr/~history/pers-II.html
        but this is definitely getting rather late for your gentleman's persona.

        I hope some of this is useful.
        --
        Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
        the persona formerly known as Anahita
      • Lilinah
        ... Also called selHam in Morocco (i use the capital H to indicate a strong H sound). I ve found evidence for them in North Africa going back to Roman times,
        Message 3 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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          Unsigned wrote:
          >You might look at Burnoose. In my research for a play they are a
          >popular alternative to the turban. Though I dont know if they go so
          >far back to 1000 ce.

          Also called selHam in Morocco (i use the capital H to indicate a
          strong H sound). I've found evidence for them in North Africa going
          back to Roman times, but i haven't read about or seen them outside
          North Africa.

          And in art from Central Asia - original home of the Seljuks, this
          gentleman's culture - i've seen no suggestion that a hooded cloak was
          part of the clothing system. Nor have i seen any in any Persian
          culture from Greco-Roman times to the 17th century. What i see over
          and over are front-opening "coats".

          If you have an historical source for Central Asian hooded cloaks,
          please share, because i've got one that would be comfy to wear for
          those times i'm wearing Persian rather than North African clothing at
          events.

          --
          Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
          the persona formerly known as Anahita
        • Per Braz
          Greetings ! We have made some seldjuk/turkish/arabic garbs from end of XIIth century here http://www.1186-583.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=21 You can see some
          Message 4 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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            Greetings !
            We have made some seldjuk/turkish/arabic garbs from end of XIIth century here
            http://www.1186-583.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=21
            You can see some sharbush style hats here :
            http://www.1186-583.org/article.php3?id_article=101
            http://www.1186-583.org/article.php3?id_article=145
            (sorry it is just in French but pictures are useful)
            An excellent article about it is here :
            http://www.havenonline.com/moas/northstar/vol2no1/An%20Islamic%20Military%20Cap%20
            (Tarik).htm
            Atakan al Vefa is an a Seldjuk character, Zahr is Turkish but with some
            Arabic/Kurdish/Turkmen influences.
            Hope it can help.
            Yann aka Per Braz aka Abu Hamir

            --
            Per Braz - perbraz@...
            webmestre http://www.1186-583.org
          • Janis James
            Terrific help Urtatim, thanks very much. From the email this morning my gentleman is Seljuk. So.... he is Turkish eh? hmmm.....he has a determination to
            Message 5 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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              Terrific help Urtatim, thanks very much.
              From the email this morning my gentleman is Seljuk. So....
              he is Turkish eh? hmmm.....he has a determination to
              follow Persian inspirations.
              So, having the strong Turkish influence there might
              be an opportunity for some minor changes.......more
              elaborate fabrics etc.?
              Thanks again for all your help. Sine

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            • Lilinah
              Greetings: Cool! I ve been admiring the 1186-583 website for quite a while. There s some excellent stuff on it. ... Yes!!! These are really useful pages on the
              Message 6 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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                Greetings:

                Cool! I've been admiring the 1186-583 website for quite a while.
                There's some excellent stuff on it.

                >We have made some seldjuk/turkish/arabic garbs from end of XIIth century here
                >http://www.1186-583.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=21
                >You can see some sharbush style hats here :
                >http://www.1186-583.org/article.php3?id_article=101
                >http://www.1186-583.org/article.php3?id_article=145

                Yes!!! These are really useful pages on the hat i mentioned. I've
                saved them and bookmarked them, but forgot about it when i made my
                recommendations :-(

                >(sorry it is just in French but pictures are useful)

                I can help translate...

                >An excellent article about it is here :
                >http://www.havenonline.com/moas/northstar/vol2no1/An%20Islamic%20Military%20Cap%20(Tarik).htm

                Alas, the illustrations are missing (and from most of the articles on
                this site)... did you (or someone else), by chance, save them?

                --
                Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                the persona formerly known as Anahita
              • Per Braz
                ... Thanks a lot. I plan to upgrade the website to a new CMS engine before the end of the year, with the possibility to have foreign languages, including
                Message 7 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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                  Le mardi 5 juin 2007, Lilinah a écrit :
                  > Cool! I've been admiring the 1186-583 website for quite a while.
                  > There's some excellent stuff on it.
                  Thanks a lot. I plan to upgrade the website to a new CMS engine before the end
                  of the year, with the possibility to have foreign languages, including
                  English of course. And we haven't pusblished a lot recently as we are working
                  hard on a book project to be released for next year. We should begin again to
                  put stuff during Summer I think, we have quite some new things to show and a
                  lot of ideas :)

                  > >(sorry it is just in French but pictures are useful)
                  > I can help translate...
                  So do I of course :)

                  > Alas, the illustrations are missing (and from most of the articles on
                  > this site)... did you (or someone else), by chance, save them?
                  I don't think
                  I will ask on our internal forum, by chance.
                  All the best
                  Yann aka Per Braz

                  --
                  Per Braz - perbraz@...
                  webmestre http://www.1186-583.org
                • Lilinah
                  ... As did many Seljuks after they conquered much of Persia :-) Persian culture was THE culture to emulate - even the Abbasid Arabs copied many aspects of
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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                    Sine wrote:
                    >From the email this morning my gentleman is Seljuk. So....
                    >he is Turkish eh? hmmm.....he has a determination to
                    >follow Persian inspirations.

                    As did many Seljuks after they conquered much of Persia :-) Persian
                    culture was THE culture to emulate - even the 'Abbasid Arabs copied
                    many aspects of Persian culture.

                    >So, having the strong Turkish influence there might
                    >be an opportunity for some minor changes...more
                    >elaborate fabrics etc.?

                    Unfortunately, the Mongols followed on the heels of the Seljuks and
                    were quite destructive, so there's a very limited amount of clothing
                    left. There are some garments in modern Turkey, in the Anatolian city
                    of Konya, which was the capital city of the Seljuks of Rum in the
                    12th& 13th centuries. They're in a museum, the Mevlana Museum,
                    dedicated to the famous poet Rumi (so-called because he lived in Rum,
                    i.e., a region that had formerly belonged to the "Romans", what the
                    Byzantines called themselves). Mevlana Celaleddin (or Jalaluddin)
                    Rumi was born in Balkh, a city in medieval Persia, now in
                    Afghanistan. His family fled westward to escape the Mongols. He was a
                    Sufi, the Mevlevi order, sometimes called "whirling dervishes".

                    There are some not-terribly good photos from the museum on-line.
                    [http://rubens.anu.edu.au/raid1/turkey2/cd10/konya/mevlana_tekke/MUSEUM/textiles/clothing/%5d
                    the graphics are freakin' huge (mostly around 1mg!) but should be helpful.

                    As for fabric to use to look royal in, some 2-color damask with small
                    patterns might be good. Colors to go for are rich red, golden yellow,
                    white, and various shades of indigo blue.

                    Another typical early Persian motif is the roundel featuring either a
                    mounted warrior (i.e., on horseback) or a "big cat" attacking an
                    herbivore (deer, camel, bull, other) and often with a "pearl" border
                    (i.e., having a circumference of small solid circles). From what i
                    can tell, roundels were still featured on lampas weave fabric during
                    the Seljuk period.

                    These sorts of patterns are admittedly hard to find in modern fabric
                    - but you never know, you might find some. A few years ago i actually
                    found some white cellulose rayon with indigo printed cintamani (a
                    typical royal Ottoman pattern). The scale was wrong (it was small and
                    Ottomans liked BIG patterns) but i HAD to get some. It's the only
                    time in 8 years i've seen modern commercial cintamani.

                    --
                    Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                    the persona formerly known as Anahita
                  • Lilinah
                    ... Here are a couple Seljuk period fabric fragments i found some time ago at the website of the Cleveland Museum of Art: -- Lampas weave fabric with animals
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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                      I wrote:
                      >As for fabric to use to look royal in, some 2-color damask with
                      >small patterns might be good. Colors to go for are rich red, golden
                      >yellow, white, and various shades of indigo blue.
                      >
                      >Another typical early Persian motif is the roundel featuring either
                      >a mounted warrior (i.e., on horseback) or a "big cat" attacking an
                      >herbivore (deer, camel, bull, other) and often with a "pearl" border
                      >(i.e., having a circumference of small solid circles). From what i
                      >can tell, roundels were still featured on lampas weave fabric during
                      >the Seljuk period.

                      Here are a couple Seljuk period fabric fragments i found some time
                      ago at the website of the Cleveland Museum of Art:
                      -- Lampas weave fabric with animals in roundels
                      [http://www.clevelandart.org/Explore/departmentWork.asp?deptgroup=3&recNo=299]
                      -- Lampas weave fabric of simurghs in medium indigo blue silk and metallic gold
                      [http://www.clevelandart.org/Explore/work.asp?searchText=1945%2E14&recNo=0&tab=2&display=]

                      --
                      Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                      the persona formerly known as Anahita
                    • Lilinah
                      Whew! I finally found the thumbnail pages for those huge Mevlana Tekke files.
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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                        Whew! I finally found the "thumbnail" pages for those huge Mevlana Tekke files.
                        http://rubens.anu.edu.au/turkey/konya/mevlana_tekke/museum/textiles/clothing/index.php?page=1
                        and
                        http://rubens.anu.edu.au/turkey/konya/mevlana_tekke/museum/textiles/clothing/index.php?page=2

                        So, if you've been holding back, now you can preview before clicking...
                        --
                        Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                        the persona formerly known as Anahita
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