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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Middle Eastern Question

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  • Janis James
    ... I understand him to be Seljuk........now I m not actually positive about that, just seem to remember that in conversation, can t contact him until tomorrow
    Message 1 of 21 , Jun 4, 2007
      .........Urtatim...wrote
      >Uh, mmm, alas, that white head cloth is not appropriate for a
      >Persian. I think a cap of some sort is going to be more appropriate
      >for the rest of his clothing.
      >
      >Is he Sogdian or Seljuk?
      >
      I understand him to be Seljuk........now I'm not actually positive
      about that, just seem to remember that in conversation, can't
      contact him until tomorrow to clarify.
      Cheers, Sine

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    • j_southwell2002
      MODERATOR NOTE (please sign all posts to the list and please do not top post to this list, thank you) Despina moderator You might look at Burnoose. In my
      Message 2 of 21 , Jun 4, 2007
        MODERATOR NOTE (please sign all posts to the list and please do not top post to this list, thank you) Despina moderator

        You might look at Burnoose. In my research for a play they are a
        popular alternative to the turban. Though I dont know if they go so
        far back to 1000 ce.
      • Lilinah
        ... OK, if he s Seljuk, he s Turkish. They conquered a large part of Persia, but they are Turkish linguistically, ethnically, and culturally. In art i see that
        Message 3 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
          Sine wrote:
          >I understand him to be Seljuk........now I'm not actually positive
          >about that, just seem to remember that in conversation, can't
          >contact him until tomorrow to clarify.

          OK, if he's Seljuk, he's Turkish. They conquered a large part of
          Persia, but they are Turkish linguistically, ethnically, and
          culturally.

          In art i see that he would have adapted to wear a turban as royalty,
          but if he's dead set against it, a fur lined had is the next best
          thing (yeah, right, i'm sure he'll love that idea :-) You can fake it
          by making a cap and have the fur on the outside...

          One hat (but it's for mortals less that the "King") is a basic cap
          with a rectangular band around the head and the top made of triangles
          - six would be best, although i've seen simplified versions with only
          four, but c'mon, if he's royalty he deserves the best :-) Make the
          parts of the hat that show of the richest jacquard silk fabric you
          can fine - since it won't use a lot. Then that simple band around the
          head should be of a nice rich dark brown fur - you can make it on the
          outside only so it won't be so hot, with a simple comfy fabric on the
          inside (cotton or linen).

          One feature of royal caps, at least in the Minai style Seljuk art (i
          have a real soft spot for Minai style art) is a sort of triangle
          shape in the center front that sticks up and is gold, at least in
          paintings, and appears to be backed or edged with fur. In reality it
          might have been gold metal, but if you can find gilded leather that
          might be less uncomfortable and quicker to make.

          This web page has some nice Minai style manuscript illuminations,
          although they're a bit fuzzy.
          http://www.geocities.com/egfroth1/Seljuqs.htm

          The large painting about 2/5 of the way down the page with the caption:
          "A Seljuq court, from Kitab al Diryaq (the Book of Antidotes) by
          Pseudo-Gallen, probably from Iraq, mid 13th century. National
          Bibliothek, Vienna." (i figure that should say Pseudo-Galen)
          shows the ruler in very large size almost centered. He's wearing that
          hat i mentioned.

          Granted, this is about 200 years later than you're looking for, but
          clothing for rulers was often more conservative than that for
          ordinary folks, so it may be close to what he could use.

          Those pointed white hats with the brims do not appear to be for
          royalty, and in period it was always important to look the part,
          whatever one's part was. Personal comfort of royalty when out in
          public didn't matter as much as looking impressive, although in
          private i'm sure royalty could be a bit more informal.

          In some versions of the Maqamat of al-Hariri produced in Seljuk
          controlled Syria in a Seljuk influenced style, shows some men with
          head wraps around caps - one in particular looks like a qalansuwa - a
          somewhat tall somewhat pointy hat, generally associated with the
          ruling class.

          In a copy of Kalila wa-Dimna dated to 1220 and produced in Seljuk
          controlled Baghdad all the human men appear to be wearing either
          turbans or head wraps :-( Many of the illustrations from this book,
          Ms. arabe 3465,

          Both books are on-line at the site of the Biblioteque Nationale de France
          http://expositions.bnf.fr/livrarab/
          I seem to recall that the section in English has a lot fewer pieces
          of art than the section in French.

          Another Seljuk book, the story of Warka wa-Gulshah, the tale of two
          lovers (his name is variously Romanized into Warqa and Varka; as for
          her name, "Gul" means "rose"), is also from the early 13th century. I
          can only assume these early 13th C. works were all pre-Mongol
          invasion. Again, nearly all the men are shown wearing turbans or head
          wraps. Most of the illustrations are on-line, scanned from a book
          that reproduced them mostly in black-and-white (alas).
          http://www.geocities.com/qilich/varga/

          There are some color pictures from it at:
          http://www.ee.bilkent.edu.tr/~history/early.html

          And there are some illustrations from the 1300s... some before the
          Mongol invasion and some after here:
          www.ehttp://e.bilkent.edu.tr/~history/pers-II.html
          but this is definitely getting rather late for your gentleman's persona.

          I hope some of this is useful.
          --
          Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
          the persona formerly known as Anahita
        • Lilinah
          ... Also called selHam in Morocco (i use the capital H to indicate a strong H sound). I ve found evidence for them in North Africa going back to Roman times,
          Message 4 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
            Unsigned wrote:
            >You might look at Burnoose. In my research for a play they are a
            >popular alternative to the turban. Though I dont know if they go so
            >far back to 1000 ce.

            Also called selHam in Morocco (i use the capital H to indicate a
            strong H sound). I've found evidence for them in North Africa going
            back to Roman times, but i haven't read about or seen them outside
            North Africa.

            And in art from Central Asia - original home of the Seljuks, this
            gentleman's culture - i've seen no suggestion that a hooded cloak was
            part of the clothing system. Nor have i seen any in any Persian
            culture from Greco-Roman times to the 17th century. What i see over
            and over are front-opening "coats".

            If you have an historical source for Central Asian hooded cloaks,
            please share, because i've got one that would be comfy to wear for
            those times i'm wearing Persian rather than North African clothing at
            events.

            --
            Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
            the persona formerly known as Anahita
          • Per Braz
            Greetings ! We have made some seldjuk/turkish/arabic garbs from end of XIIth century here http://www.1186-583.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=21 You can see some
            Message 5 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
              Greetings !
              We have made some seldjuk/turkish/arabic garbs from end of XIIth century here
              http://www.1186-583.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=21
              You can see some sharbush style hats here :
              http://www.1186-583.org/article.php3?id_article=101
              http://www.1186-583.org/article.php3?id_article=145
              (sorry it is just in French but pictures are useful)
              An excellent article about it is here :
              http://www.havenonline.com/moas/northstar/vol2no1/An%20Islamic%20Military%20Cap%20
              (Tarik).htm
              Atakan al Vefa is an a Seldjuk character, Zahr is Turkish but with some
              Arabic/Kurdish/Turkmen influences.
              Hope it can help.
              Yann aka Per Braz aka Abu Hamir

              --
              Per Braz - perbraz@...
              webmestre http://www.1186-583.org
            • Janis James
              Terrific help Urtatim, thanks very much. From the email this morning my gentleman is Seljuk. So.... he is Turkish eh? hmmm.....he has a determination to
              Message 6 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
                Terrific help Urtatim, thanks very much.
                From the email this morning my gentleman is Seljuk. So....
                he is Turkish eh? hmmm.....he has a determination to
                follow Persian inspirations.
                So, having the strong Turkish influence there might
                be an opportunity for some minor changes.......more
                elaborate fabrics etc.?
                Thanks again for all your help. Sine

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              • Lilinah
                Greetings: Cool! I ve been admiring the 1186-583 website for quite a while. There s some excellent stuff on it. ... Yes!!! These are really useful pages on the
                Message 7 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
                  Greetings:

                  Cool! I've been admiring the 1186-583 website for quite a while.
                  There's some excellent stuff on it.

                  >We have made some seldjuk/turkish/arabic garbs from end of XIIth century here
                  >http://www.1186-583.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=21
                  >You can see some sharbush style hats here :
                  >http://www.1186-583.org/article.php3?id_article=101
                  >http://www.1186-583.org/article.php3?id_article=145

                  Yes!!! These are really useful pages on the hat i mentioned. I've
                  saved them and bookmarked them, but forgot about it when i made my
                  recommendations :-(

                  >(sorry it is just in French but pictures are useful)

                  I can help translate...

                  >An excellent article about it is here :
                  >http://www.havenonline.com/moas/northstar/vol2no1/An%20Islamic%20Military%20Cap%20(Tarik).htm

                  Alas, the illustrations are missing (and from most of the articles on
                  this site)... did you (or someone else), by chance, save them?

                  --
                  Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                  the persona formerly known as Anahita
                • Per Braz
                  ... Thanks a lot. I plan to upgrade the website to a new CMS engine before the end of the year, with the possibility to have foreign languages, including
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
                    Le mardi 5 juin 2007, Lilinah a écrit :
                    > Cool! I've been admiring the 1186-583 website for quite a while.
                    > There's some excellent stuff on it.
                    Thanks a lot. I plan to upgrade the website to a new CMS engine before the end
                    of the year, with the possibility to have foreign languages, including
                    English of course. And we haven't pusblished a lot recently as we are working
                    hard on a book project to be released for next year. We should begin again to
                    put stuff during Summer I think, we have quite some new things to show and a
                    lot of ideas :)

                    > >(sorry it is just in French but pictures are useful)
                    > I can help translate...
                    So do I of course :)

                    > Alas, the illustrations are missing (and from most of the articles on
                    > this site)... did you (or someone else), by chance, save them?
                    I don't think
                    I will ask on our internal forum, by chance.
                    All the best
                    Yann aka Per Braz

                    --
                    Per Braz - perbraz@...
                    webmestre http://www.1186-583.org
                  • Lilinah
                    ... As did many Seljuks after they conquered much of Persia :-) Persian culture was THE culture to emulate - even the Abbasid Arabs copied many aspects of
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
                      Sine wrote:
                      >From the email this morning my gentleman is Seljuk. So....
                      >he is Turkish eh? hmmm.....he has a determination to
                      >follow Persian inspirations.

                      As did many Seljuks after they conquered much of Persia :-) Persian
                      culture was THE culture to emulate - even the 'Abbasid Arabs copied
                      many aspects of Persian culture.

                      >So, having the strong Turkish influence there might
                      >be an opportunity for some minor changes...more
                      >elaborate fabrics etc.?

                      Unfortunately, the Mongols followed on the heels of the Seljuks and
                      were quite destructive, so there's a very limited amount of clothing
                      left. There are some garments in modern Turkey, in the Anatolian city
                      of Konya, which was the capital city of the Seljuks of Rum in the
                      12th& 13th centuries. They're in a museum, the Mevlana Museum,
                      dedicated to the famous poet Rumi (so-called because he lived in Rum,
                      i.e., a region that had formerly belonged to the "Romans", what the
                      Byzantines called themselves). Mevlana Celaleddin (or Jalaluddin)
                      Rumi was born in Balkh, a city in medieval Persia, now in
                      Afghanistan. His family fled westward to escape the Mongols. He was a
                      Sufi, the Mevlevi order, sometimes called "whirling dervishes".

                      There are some not-terribly good photos from the museum on-line.
                      [http://rubens.anu.edu.au/raid1/turkey2/cd10/konya/mevlana_tekke/MUSEUM/textiles/clothing/%5d
                      the graphics are freakin' huge (mostly around 1mg!) but should be helpful.

                      As for fabric to use to look royal in, some 2-color damask with small
                      patterns might be good. Colors to go for are rich red, golden yellow,
                      white, and various shades of indigo blue.

                      Another typical early Persian motif is the roundel featuring either a
                      mounted warrior (i.e., on horseback) or a "big cat" attacking an
                      herbivore (deer, camel, bull, other) and often with a "pearl" border
                      (i.e., having a circumference of small solid circles). From what i
                      can tell, roundels were still featured on lampas weave fabric during
                      the Seljuk period.

                      These sorts of patterns are admittedly hard to find in modern fabric
                      - but you never know, you might find some. A few years ago i actually
                      found some white cellulose rayon with indigo printed cintamani (a
                      typical royal Ottoman pattern). The scale was wrong (it was small and
                      Ottomans liked BIG patterns) but i HAD to get some. It's the only
                      time in 8 years i've seen modern commercial cintamani.

                      --
                      Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                      the persona formerly known as Anahita
                    • Lilinah
                      ... Here are a couple Seljuk period fabric fragments i found some time ago at the website of the Cleveland Museum of Art: -- Lampas weave fabric with animals
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
                        I wrote:
                        >As for fabric to use to look royal in, some 2-color damask with
                        >small patterns might be good. Colors to go for are rich red, golden
                        >yellow, white, and various shades of indigo blue.
                        >
                        >Another typical early Persian motif is the roundel featuring either
                        >a mounted warrior (i.e., on horseback) or a "big cat" attacking an
                        >herbivore (deer, camel, bull, other) and often with a "pearl" border
                        >(i.e., having a circumference of small solid circles). From what i
                        >can tell, roundels were still featured on lampas weave fabric during
                        >the Seljuk period.

                        Here are a couple Seljuk period fabric fragments i found some time
                        ago at the website of the Cleveland Museum of Art:
                        -- Lampas weave fabric with animals in roundels
                        [http://www.clevelandart.org/Explore/departmentWork.asp?deptgroup=3&recNo=299]
                        -- Lampas weave fabric of simurghs in medium indigo blue silk and metallic gold
                        [http://www.clevelandart.org/Explore/work.asp?searchText=1945%2E14&recNo=0&tab=2&display=]

                        --
                        Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                        the persona formerly known as Anahita
                      • Lilinah
                        Whew! I finally found the thumbnail pages for those huge Mevlana Tekke files.
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
                          Whew! I finally found the "thumbnail" pages for those huge Mevlana Tekke files.
                          http://rubens.anu.edu.au/turkey/konya/mevlana_tekke/museum/textiles/clothing/index.php?page=1
                          and
                          http://rubens.anu.edu.au/turkey/konya/mevlana_tekke/museum/textiles/clothing/index.php?page=2

                          So, if you've been holding back, now you can preview before clicking...
                          --
                          Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                          the persona formerly known as Anahita
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