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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Middle Eastern Question

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  • Janis James
    Urtatim (that s err-tah-TEEM) wrote......... ... .........well, OK.....yes - there is indeed a difference between a turban and a headwrap. As the gentleman I
    Message 1 of 21 , Jun 4, 2007
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      Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) wrote.........
      >SCAdians (and other non-Muslims) use the term "turban" far far far
      >too loosely. There is a difference between a turban and a head wrap,
      >but i hear people over and over call a head wrap a turban....snips......

      .........well, OK.....yes - there is indeed a difference between
      a turban and a headwrap. As the gentleman I am costuming
      for will be Royal I guess it really was appropriate! Our equivalent
      to the Shah, Sultan, Caliph etc., However, as I said he is just not
      comfortable in a Turban. He really doesn't much care for
      a headwrap either - even if that would seem to be more
      acceptable. It seems he gets extremely warm about
      the head and layers of cloth make him very, very uncomfortable.

      ......>Acutally, there is evidence for a *pure white* head cloth and a
      >*simple* filet (not those big thick black and gold agals i see) at
      >least in al-Andalus. I have some pictures on my website... if the
      >gentleman is a Maghribi or Andalusi.

      Now this would be of more interest to him. Something simple
      and cooler to the head........I understand a one strand cord (filet),
      is there a colour restriction for that? He does agree with me that
      it feels more mediaeval to have something on the head - he just
      doesn't want to be miserable in it.

      Apparently he is about 1000 C.E. Persian. You also mentioned a
      cap? Rather like the short Fez, embroidered type?
      Thank you for your time, Sine

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    • Lilinah
      ... Uh, mmm, alas, that white head cloth is not appropriate for a Persian. I think a cap of some sort is going to be more appropriate for the rest of his
      Message 2 of 21 , Jun 4, 2007
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        Sine wrote:
        >Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) wrote.........
        >......>Actually, there is evidence for a *pure white* head cloth and a
        > >*simple* filet (not those big thick black and gold agals i see) at
        >>least in al-Andalus. I have some pictures on my website... if the
        >>gentleman is a Maghribi or Andalusi.
        >
        >Now this would be of more interest to him. Something simple
        >and cooler to the head........I understand a one strand cord (filet),
        >is there a colour restriction for that? He does agree with me that
        >it feels more mediaeval to have something on the head - he just
        >doesn't want to be miserable in it.
        >
        >Apparently he is about 1000 C.E. Persian. You also mentioned a
        >cap? Rather like the short Fez, embroidered type?
        >Thank you for your time,

        Uh, mmm, alas, that white head cloth is not appropriate for a
        Persian. I think a cap of some sort is going to be more appropriate
        for the rest of his clothing.

        Is he Sogdian or Seljuk?

        --
        Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
        the persona formerly known as Anahita
      • Janis James
        ... I understand him to be Seljuk........now I m not actually positive about that, just seem to remember that in conversation, can t contact him until tomorrow
        Message 3 of 21 , Jun 4, 2007
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          .........Urtatim...wrote
          >Uh, mmm, alas, that white head cloth is not appropriate for a
          >Persian. I think a cap of some sort is going to be more appropriate
          >for the rest of his clothing.
          >
          >Is he Sogdian or Seljuk?
          >
          I understand him to be Seljuk........now I'm not actually positive
          about that, just seem to remember that in conversation, can't
          contact him until tomorrow to clarify.
          Cheers, Sine

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        • j_southwell2002
          MODERATOR NOTE (please sign all posts to the list and please do not top post to this list, thank you) Despina moderator You might look at Burnoose. In my
          Message 4 of 21 , Jun 4, 2007
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            MODERATOR NOTE (please sign all posts to the list and please do not top post to this list, thank you) Despina moderator

            You might look at Burnoose. In my research for a play they are a
            popular alternative to the turban. Though I dont know if they go so
            far back to 1000 ce.
          • Lilinah
            ... OK, if he s Seljuk, he s Turkish. They conquered a large part of Persia, but they are Turkish linguistically, ethnically, and culturally. In art i see that
            Message 5 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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              Sine wrote:
              >I understand him to be Seljuk........now I'm not actually positive
              >about that, just seem to remember that in conversation, can't
              >contact him until tomorrow to clarify.

              OK, if he's Seljuk, he's Turkish. They conquered a large part of
              Persia, but they are Turkish linguistically, ethnically, and
              culturally.

              In art i see that he would have adapted to wear a turban as royalty,
              but if he's dead set against it, a fur lined had is the next best
              thing (yeah, right, i'm sure he'll love that idea :-) You can fake it
              by making a cap and have the fur on the outside...

              One hat (but it's for mortals less that the "King") is a basic cap
              with a rectangular band around the head and the top made of triangles
              - six would be best, although i've seen simplified versions with only
              four, but c'mon, if he's royalty he deserves the best :-) Make the
              parts of the hat that show of the richest jacquard silk fabric you
              can fine - since it won't use a lot. Then that simple band around the
              head should be of a nice rich dark brown fur - you can make it on the
              outside only so it won't be so hot, with a simple comfy fabric on the
              inside (cotton or linen).

              One feature of royal caps, at least in the Minai style Seljuk art (i
              have a real soft spot for Minai style art) is a sort of triangle
              shape in the center front that sticks up and is gold, at least in
              paintings, and appears to be backed or edged with fur. In reality it
              might have been gold metal, but if you can find gilded leather that
              might be less uncomfortable and quicker to make.

              This web page has some nice Minai style manuscript illuminations,
              although they're a bit fuzzy.
              http://www.geocities.com/egfroth1/Seljuqs.htm

              The large painting about 2/5 of the way down the page with the caption:
              "A Seljuq court, from Kitab al Diryaq (the Book of Antidotes) by
              Pseudo-Gallen, probably from Iraq, mid 13th century. National
              Bibliothek, Vienna." (i figure that should say Pseudo-Galen)
              shows the ruler in very large size almost centered. He's wearing that
              hat i mentioned.

              Granted, this is about 200 years later than you're looking for, but
              clothing for rulers was often more conservative than that for
              ordinary folks, so it may be close to what he could use.

              Those pointed white hats with the brims do not appear to be for
              royalty, and in period it was always important to look the part,
              whatever one's part was. Personal comfort of royalty when out in
              public didn't matter as much as looking impressive, although in
              private i'm sure royalty could be a bit more informal.

              In some versions of the Maqamat of al-Hariri produced in Seljuk
              controlled Syria in a Seljuk influenced style, shows some men with
              head wraps around caps - one in particular looks like a qalansuwa - a
              somewhat tall somewhat pointy hat, generally associated with the
              ruling class.

              In a copy of Kalila wa-Dimna dated to 1220 and produced in Seljuk
              controlled Baghdad all the human men appear to be wearing either
              turbans or head wraps :-( Many of the illustrations from this book,
              Ms. arabe 3465,

              Both books are on-line at the site of the Biblioteque Nationale de France
              http://expositions.bnf.fr/livrarab/
              I seem to recall that the section in English has a lot fewer pieces
              of art than the section in French.

              Another Seljuk book, the story of Warka wa-Gulshah, the tale of two
              lovers (his name is variously Romanized into Warqa and Varka; as for
              her name, "Gul" means "rose"), is also from the early 13th century. I
              can only assume these early 13th C. works were all pre-Mongol
              invasion. Again, nearly all the men are shown wearing turbans or head
              wraps. Most of the illustrations are on-line, scanned from a book
              that reproduced them mostly in black-and-white (alas).
              http://www.geocities.com/qilich/varga/

              There are some color pictures from it at:
              http://www.ee.bilkent.edu.tr/~history/early.html

              And there are some illustrations from the 1300s... some before the
              Mongol invasion and some after here:
              www.ehttp://e.bilkent.edu.tr/~history/pers-II.html
              but this is definitely getting rather late for your gentleman's persona.

              I hope some of this is useful.
              --
              Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
              the persona formerly known as Anahita
            • Lilinah
              ... Also called selHam in Morocco (i use the capital H to indicate a strong H sound). I ve found evidence for them in North Africa going back to Roman times,
              Message 6 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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                Unsigned wrote:
                >You might look at Burnoose. In my research for a play they are a
                >popular alternative to the turban. Though I dont know if they go so
                >far back to 1000 ce.

                Also called selHam in Morocco (i use the capital H to indicate a
                strong H sound). I've found evidence for them in North Africa going
                back to Roman times, but i haven't read about or seen them outside
                North Africa.

                And in art from Central Asia - original home of the Seljuks, this
                gentleman's culture - i've seen no suggestion that a hooded cloak was
                part of the clothing system. Nor have i seen any in any Persian
                culture from Greco-Roman times to the 17th century. What i see over
                and over are front-opening "coats".

                If you have an historical source for Central Asian hooded cloaks,
                please share, because i've got one that would be comfy to wear for
                those times i'm wearing Persian rather than North African clothing at
                events.

                --
                Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                the persona formerly known as Anahita
              • Per Braz
                Greetings ! We have made some seldjuk/turkish/arabic garbs from end of XIIth century here http://www.1186-583.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=21 You can see some
                Message 7 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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                  Greetings !
                  We have made some seldjuk/turkish/arabic garbs from end of XIIth century here
                  http://www.1186-583.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=21
                  You can see some sharbush style hats here :
                  http://www.1186-583.org/article.php3?id_article=101
                  http://www.1186-583.org/article.php3?id_article=145
                  (sorry it is just in French but pictures are useful)
                  An excellent article about it is here :
                  http://www.havenonline.com/moas/northstar/vol2no1/An%20Islamic%20Military%20Cap%20
                  (Tarik).htm
                  Atakan al Vefa is an a Seldjuk character, Zahr is Turkish but with some
                  Arabic/Kurdish/Turkmen influences.
                  Hope it can help.
                  Yann aka Per Braz aka Abu Hamir

                  --
                  Per Braz - perbraz@...
                  webmestre http://www.1186-583.org
                • Janis James
                  Terrific help Urtatim, thanks very much. From the email this morning my gentleman is Seljuk. So.... he is Turkish eh? hmmm.....he has a determination to
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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                    Terrific help Urtatim, thanks very much.
                    From the email this morning my gentleman is Seljuk. So....
                    he is Turkish eh? hmmm.....he has a determination to
                    follow Persian inspirations.
                    So, having the strong Turkish influence there might
                    be an opportunity for some minor changes.......more
                    elaborate fabrics etc.?
                    Thanks again for all your help. Sine

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                  • Lilinah
                    Greetings: Cool! I ve been admiring the 1186-583 website for quite a while. There s some excellent stuff on it. ... Yes!!! These are really useful pages on the
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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                      Greetings:

                      Cool! I've been admiring the 1186-583 website for quite a while.
                      There's some excellent stuff on it.

                      >We have made some seldjuk/turkish/arabic garbs from end of XIIth century here
                      >http://www.1186-583.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=21
                      >You can see some sharbush style hats here :
                      >http://www.1186-583.org/article.php3?id_article=101
                      >http://www.1186-583.org/article.php3?id_article=145

                      Yes!!! These are really useful pages on the hat i mentioned. I've
                      saved them and bookmarked them, but forgot about it when i made my
                      recommendations :-(

                      >(sorry it is just in French but pictures are useful)

                      I can help translate...

                      >An excellent article about it is here :
                      >http://www.havenonline.com/moas/northstar/vol2no1/An%20Islamic%20Military%20Cap%20(Tarik).htm

                      Alas, the illustrations are missing (and from most of the articles on
                      this site)... did you (or someone else), by chance, save them?

                      --
                      Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                      the persona formerly known as Anahita
                    • Per Braz
                      ... Thanks a lot. I plan to upgrade the website to a new CMS engine before the end of the year, with the possibility to have foreign languages, including
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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                        Le mardi 5 juin 2007, Lilinah a écrit :
                        > Cool! I've been admiring the 1186-583 website for quite a while.
                        > There's some excellent stuff on it.
                        Thanks a lot. I plan to upgrade the website to a new CMS engine before the end
                        of the year, with the possibility to have foreign languages, including
                        English of course. And we haven't pusblished a lot recently as we are working
                        hard on a book project to be released for next year. We should begin again to
                        put stuff during Summer I think, we have quite some new things to show and a
                        lot of ideas :)

                        > >(sorry it is just in French but pictures are useful)
                        > I can help translate...
                        So do I of course :)

                        > Alas, the illustrations are missing (and from most of the articles on
                        > this site)... did you (or someone else), by chance, save them?
                        I don't think
                        I will ask on our internal forum, by chance.
                        All the best
                        Yann aka Per Braz

                        --
                        Per Braz - perbraz@...
                        webmestre http://www.1186-583.org
                      • Lilinah
                        ... As did many Seljuks after they conquered much of Persia :-) Persian culture was THE culture to emulate - even the Abbasid Arabs copied many aspects of
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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                          Sine wrote:
                          >From the email this morning my gentleman is Seljuk. So....
                          >he is Turkish eh? hmmm.....he has a determination to
                          >follow Persian inspirations.

                          As did many Seljuks after they conquered much of Persia :-) Persian
                          culture was THE culture to emulate - even the 'Abbasid Arabs copied
                          many aspects of Persian culture.

                          >So, having the strong Turkish influence there might
                          >be an opportunity for some minor changes...more
                          >elaborate fabrics etc.?

                          Unfortunately, the Mongols followed on the heels of the Seljuks and
                          were quite destructive, so there's a very limited amount of clothing
                          left. There are some garments in modern Turkey, in the Anatolian city
                          of Konya, which was the capital city of the Seljuks of Rum in the
                          12th& 13th centuries. They're in a museum, the Mevlana Museum,
                          dedicated to the famous poet Rumi (so-called because he lived in Rum,
                          i.e., a region that had formerly belonged to the "Romans", what the
                          Byzantines called themselves). Mevlana Celaleddin (or Jalaluddin)
                          Rumi was born in Balkh, a city in medieval Persia, now in
                          Afghanistan. His family fled westward to escape the Mongols. He was a
                          Sufi, the Mevlevi order, sometimes called "whirling dervishes".

                          There are some not-terribly good photos from the museum on-line.
                          [http://rubens.anu.edu.au/raid1/turkey2/cd10/konya/mevlana_tekke/MUSEUM/textiles/clothing/%5d
                          the graphics are freakin' huge (mostly around 1mg!) but should be helpful.

                          As for fabric to use to look royal in, some 2-color damask with small
                          patterns might be good. Colors to go for are rich red, golden yellow,
                          white, and various shades of indigo blue.

                          Another typical early Persian motif is the roundel featuring either a
                          mounted warrior (i.e., on horseback) or a "big cat" attacking an
                          herbivore (deer, camel, bull, other) and often with a "pearl" border
                          (i.e., having a circumference of small solid circles). From what i
                          can tell, roundels were still featured on lampas weave fabric during
                          the Seljuk period.

                          These sorts of patterns are admittedly hard to find in modern fabric
                          - but you never know, you might find some. A few years ago i actually
                          found some white cellulose rayon with indigo printed cintamani (a
                          typical royal Ottoman pattern). The scale was wrong (it was small and
                          Ottomans liked BIG patterns) but i HAD to get some. It's the only
                          time in 8 years i've seen modern commercial cintamani.

                          --
                          Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                          the persona formerly known as Anahita
                        • Lilinah
                          ... Here are a couple Seljuk period fabric fragments i found some time ago at the website of the Cleveland Museum of Art: -- Lampas weave fabric with animals
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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                            I wrote:
                            >As for fabric to use to look royal in, some 2-color damask with
                            >small patterns might be good. Colors to go for are rich red, golden
                            >yellow, white, and various shades of indigo blue.
                            >
                            >Another typical early Persian motif is the roundel featuring either
                            >a mounted warrior (i.e., on horseback) or a "big cat" attacking an
                            >herbivore (deer, camel, bull, other) and often with a "pearl" border
                            >(i.e., having a circumference of small solid circles). From what i
                            >can tell, roundels were still featured on lampas weave fabric during
                            >the Seljuk period.

                            Here are a couple Seljuk period fabric fragments i found some time
                            ago at the website of the Cleveland Museum of Art:
                            -- Lampas weave fabric with animals in roundels
                            [http://www.clevelandart.org/Explore/departmentWork.asp?deptgroup=3&recNo=299]
                            -- Lampas weave fabric of simurghs in medium indigo blue silk and metallic gold
                            [http://www.clevelandart.org/Explore/work.asp?searchText=1945%2E14&recNo=0&tab=2&display=]

                            --
                            Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                            the persona formerly known as Anahita
                          • Lilinah
                            Whew! I finally found the thumbnail pages for those huge Mevlana Tekke files.
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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                              Whew! I finally found the "thumbnail" pages for those huge Mevlana Tekke files.
                              http://rubens.anu.edu.au/turkey/konya/mevlana_tekke/museum/textiles/clothing/index.php?page=1
                              and
                              http://rubens.anu.edu.au/turkey/konya/mevlana_tekke/museum/textiles/clothing/index.php?page=2

                              So, if you've been holding back, now you can preview before clicking...
                              --
                              Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                              the persona formerly known as Anahita
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