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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Middle Eastern Question

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  • Lilinah
    ... SCAdians (and other non-Muslims) use the term turban far far far too loosely. There is a difference between a turban and a head wrap, but i hear people
    Message 1 of 21 , Jun 4, 2007
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      Sine wrote:
      > The gentleman I am sewing for doesn't care for
      >turbans

      SCAdians (and other non-Muslims) use the term "turban" far far far
      too loosely. There is a difference between a turban and a head wrap,
      but i hear people over and over call a head wrap a turban.

      A *genuine* turban is a very specific marker of high political or
      religious status "in period". A turban was for royalty, important
      religious figures, etc., and its use is often proscribed by law - the
      method of wrapping denoted the individual's status, was well as the
      type of hat over which the turban was wrapped. So turbans are
      generally inappropriate for SCAdians

      Head wraps, on the other hand, are often quite appropriate for
      SCAdians. Head wraps are a great deal simpler than turbans and are
      relatively common.

      Head wraps are still commonly seen throughout Dar al-Islam. Turbans
      are quite rare. I'm not trying to sell you (or the gentleman) on one,
      just to inform.

      (just as the word "veil" is used for an item of clothing for Muslim
      women and non-Muslim women in the Muslim world in such a way as to be
      almost meaningless)

      >and I have always understood that the Kafeya
      >with cording band seen today is a rather modern type
      >of headwear.

      Acutally, there is evidence for a *pure white* head cloth and a
      *simple* filet (not those big thick black and gold agals i see) at
      least in al-Andalus. I have some pictures on my website... if the
      gentleman is a Maghribi or Andalusi.

      >The climate here in summer is quite hot
      >and he is not comfortable with the turban.

      And i bet he isn't a shah, a sultan, a caliph, or an imam who has
      gone on the hajj... so a turban is likely to be inappropriate,
      although a common and simple head wrap might be appropriate.

      > I am looking around about 1000 ce, and any help
      >or ideas would really be appreciated.

      In fact, what just about anyone - adult, child, male, female - just
      about anyplace could wear is a cap. The style varies from time to
      time and place to place.

      So, where is this gentleman from? I can better suggest a style when i
      know his locale.

      --
      Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
      the persona formerly known as Anahita

      Ride your camel to Dar Anahita
      http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah
      SCA-period Near and Middle Eastern Costuming,
      including Persian, Ottoman, Maghribi, and Andalusian,
      Medieval Muslim Egyptian knitting, and
      complete menus and period recipes from seven SCA feasts
      (from German to Persian), 23 German mushroom recipes,
      an analysis of the spices used in two different 13th C. Arabic
      language cookbooks, and more Medieval food-related stuff
    • Janis James
      Urtatim (that s err-tah-TEEM) wrote......... ... .........well, OK.....yes - there is indeed a difference between a turban and a headwrap. As the gentleman I
      Message 2 of 21 , Jun 4, 2007
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        Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) wrote.........
        >SCAdians (and other non-Muslims) use the term "turban" far far far
        >too loosely. There is a difference between a turban and a head wrap,
        >but i hear people over and over call a head wrap a turban....snips......

        .........well, OK.....yes - there is indeed a difference between
        a turban and a headwrap. As the gentleman I am costuming
        for will be Royal I guess it really was appropriate! Our equivalent
        to the Shah, Sultan, Caliph etc., However, as I said he is just not
        comfortable in a Turban. He really doesn't much care for
        a headwrap either - even if that would seem to be more
        acceptable. It seems he gets extremely warm about
        the head and layers of cloth make him very, very uncomfortable.

        ......>Acutally, there is evidence for a *pure white* head cloth and a
        >*simple* filet (not those big thick black and gold agals i see) at
        >least in al-Andalus. I have some pictures on my website... if the
        >gentleman is a Maghribi or Andalusi.

        Now this would be of more interest to him. Something simple
        and cooler to the head........I understand a one strand cord (filet),
        is there a colour restriction for that? He does agree with me that
        it feels more mediaeval to have something on the head - he just
        doesn't want to be miserable in it.

        Apparently he is about 1000 C.E. Persian. You also mentioned a
        cap? Rather like the short Fez, embroidered type?
        Thank you for your time, Sine

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      • Lilinah
        ... Uh, mmm, alas, that white head cloth is not appropriate for a Persian. I think a cap of some sort is going to be more appropriate for the rest of his
        Message 3 of 21 , Jun 4, 2007
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          Sine wrote:
          >Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) wrote.........
          >......>Actually, there is evidence for a *pure white* head cloth and a
          > >*simple* filet (not those big thick black and gold agals i see) at
          >>least in al-Andalus. I have some pictures on my website... if the
          >>gentleman is a Maghribi or Andalusi.
          >
          >Now this would be of more interest to him. Something simple
          >and cooler to the head........I understand a one strand cord (filet),
          >is there a colour restriction for that? He does agree with me that
          >it feels more mediaeval to have something on the head - he just
          >doesn't want to be miserable in it.
          >
          >Apparently he is about 1000 C.E. Persian. You also mentioned a
          >cap? Rather like the short Fez, embroidered type?
          >Thank you for your time,

          Uh, mmm, alas, that white head cloth is not appropriate for a
          Persian. I think a cap of some sort is going to be more appropriate
          for the rest of his clothing.

          Is he Sogdian or Seljuk?

          --
          Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
          the persona formerly known as Anahita
        • Janis James
          ... I understand him to be Seljuk........now I m not actually positive about that, just seem to remember that in conversation, can t contact him until tomorrow
          Message 4 of 21 , Jun 4, 2007
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            .........Urtatim...wrote
            >Uh, mmm, alas, that white head cloth is not appropriate for a
            >Persian. I think a cap of some sort is going to be more appropriate
            >for the rest of his clothing.
            >
            >Is he Sogdian or Seljuk?
            >
            I understand him to be Seljuk........now I'm not actually positive
            about that, just seem to remember that in conversation, can't
            contact him until tomorrow to clarify.
            Cheers, Sine

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          • j_southwell2002
            MODERATOR NOTE (please sign all posts to the list and please do not top post to this list, thank you) Despina moderator You might look at Burnoose. In my
            Message 5 of 21 , Jun 4, 2007
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              MODERATOR NOTE (please sign all posts to the list and please do not top post to this list, thank you) Despina moderator

              You might look at Burnoose. In my research for a play they are a
              popular alternative to the turban. Though I dont know if they go so
              far back to 1000 ce.
            • Lilinah
              ... OK, if he s Seljuk, he s Turkish. They conquered a large part of Persia, but they are Turkish linguistically, ethnically, and culturally. In art i see that
              Message 6 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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                Sine wrote:
                >I understand him to be Seljuk........now I'm not actually positive
                >about that, just seem to remember that in conversation, can't
                >contact him until tomorrow to clarify.

                OK, if he's Seljuk, he's Turkish. They conquered a large part of
                Persia, but they are Turkish linguistically, ethnically, and
                culturally.

                In art i see that he would have adapted to wear a turban as royalty,
                but if he's dead set against it, a fur lined had is the next best
                thing (yeah, right, i'm sure he'll love that idea :-) You can fake it
                by making a cap and have the fur on the outside...

                One hat (but it's for mortals less that the "King") is a basic cap
                with a rectangular band around the head and the top made of triangles
                - six would be best, although i've seen simplified versions with only
                four, but c'mon, if he's royalty he deserves the best :-) Make the
                parts of the hat that show of the richest jacquard silk fabric you
                can fine - since it won't use a lot. Then that simple band around the
                head should be of a nice rich dark brown fur - you can make it on the
                outside only so it won't be so hot, with a simple comfy fabric on the
                inside (cotton or linen).

                One feature of royal caps, at least in the Minai style Seljuk art (i
                have a real soft spot for Minai style art) is a sort of triangle
                shape in the center front that sticks up and is gold, at least in
                paintings, and appears to be backed or edged with fur. In reality it
                might have been gold metal, but if you can find gilded leather that
                might be less uncomfortable and quicker to make.

                This web page has some nice Minai style manuscript illuminations,
                although they're a bit fuzzy.
                http://www.geocities.com/egfroth1/Seljuqs.htm

                The large painting about 2/5 of the way down the page with the caption:
                "A Seljuq court, from Kitab al Diryaq (the Book of Antidotes) by
                Pseudo-Gallen, probably from Iraq, mid 13th century. National
                Bibliothek, Vienna." (i figure that should say Pseudo-Galen)
                shows the ruler in very large size almost centered. He's wearing that
                hat i mentioned.

                Granted, this is about 200 years later than you're looking for, but
                clothing for rulers was often more conservative than that for
                ordinary folks, so it may be close to what he could use.

                Those pointed white hats with the brims do not appear to be for
                royalty, and in period it was always important to look the part,
                whatever one's part was. Personal comfort of royalty when out in
                public didn't matter as much as looking impressive, although in
                private i'm sure royalty could be a bit more informal.

                In some versions of the Maqamat of al-Hariri produced in Seljuk
                controlled Syria in a Seljuk influenced style, shows some men with
                head wraps around caps - one in particular looks like a qalansuwa - a
                somewhat tall somewhat pointy hat, generally associated with the
                ruling class.

                In a copy of Kalila wa-Dimna dated to 1220 and produced in Seljuk
                controlled Baghdad all the human men appear to be wearing either
                turbans or head wraps :-( Many of the illustrations from this book,
                Ms. arabe 3465,

                Both books are on-line at the site of the Biblioteque Nationale de France
                http://expositions.bnf.fr/livrarab/
                I seem to recall that the section in English has a lot fewer pieces
                of art than the section in French.

                Another Seljuk book, the story of Warka wa-Gulshah, the tale of two
                lovers (his name is variously Romanized into Warqa and Varka; as for
                her name, "Gul" means "rose"), is also from the early 13th century. I
                can only assume these early 13th C. works were all pre-Mongol
                invasion. Again, nearly all the men are shown wearing turbans or head
                wraps. Most of the illustrations are on-line, scanned from a book
                that reproduced them mostly in black-and-white (alas).
                http://www.geocities.com/qilich/varga/

                There are some color pictures from it at:
                http://www.ee.bilkent.edu.tr/~history/early.html

                And there are some illustrations from the 1300s... some before the
                Mongol invasion and some after here:
                www.ehttp://e.bilkent.edu.tr/~history/pers-II.html
                but this is definitely getting rather late for your gentleman's persona.

                I hope some of this is useful.
                --
                Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                the persona formerly known as Anahita
              • Lilinah
                ... Also called selHam in Morocco (i use the capital H to indicate a strong H sound). I ve found evidence for them in North Africa going back to Roman times,
                Message 7 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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                  Unsigned wrote:
                  >You might look at Burnoose. In my research for a play they are a
                  >popular alternative to the turban. Though I dont know if they go so
                  >far back to 1000 ce.

                  Also called selHam in Morocco (i use the capital H to indicate a
                  strong H sound). I've found evidence for them in North Africa going
                  back to Roman times, but i haven't read about or seen them outside
                  North Africa.

                  And in art from Central Asia - original home of the Seljuks, this
                  gentleman's culture - i've seen no suggestion that a hooded cloak was
                  part of the clothing system. Nor have i seen any in any Persian
                  culture from Greco-Roman times to the 17th century. What i see over
                  and over are front-opening "coats".

                  If you have an historical source for Central Asian hooded cloaks,
                  please share, because i've got one that would be comfy to wear for
                  those times i'm wearing Persian rather than North African clothing at
                  events.

                  --
                  Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                  the persona formerly known as Anahita
                • Per Braz
                  Greetings ! We have made some seldjuk/turkish/arabic garbs from end of XIIth century here http://www.1186-583.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=21 You can see some
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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                    Greetings !
                    We have made some seldjuk/turkish/arabic garbs from end of XIIth century here
                    http://www.1186-583.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=21
                    You can see some sharbush style hats here :
                    http://www.1186-583.org/article.php3?id_article=101
                    http://www.1186-583.org/article.php3?id_article=145
                    (sorry it is just in French but pictures are useful)
                    An excellent article about it is here :
                    http://www.havenonline.com/moas/northstar/vol2no1/An%20Islamic%20Military%20Cap%20
                    (Tarik).htm
                    Atakan al Vefa is an a Seldjuk character, Zahr is Turkish but with some
                    Arabic/Kurdish/Turkmen influences.
                    Hope it can help.
                    Yann aka Per Braz aka Abu Hamir

                    --
                    Per Braz - perbraz@...
                    webmestre http://www.1186-583.org
                  • Janis James
                    Terrific help Urtatim, thanks very much. From the email this morning my gentleman is Seljuk. So.... he is Turkish eh? hmmm.....he has a determination to
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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                      Terrific help Urtatim, thanks very much.
                      From the email this morning my gentleman is Seljuk. So....
                      he is Turkish eh? hmmm.....he has a determination to
                      follow Persian inspirations.
                      So, having the strong Turkish influence there might
                      be an opportunity for some minor changes.......more
                      elaborate fabrics etc.?
                      Thanks again for all your help. Sine

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                    • Lilinah
                      Greetings: Cool! I ve been admiring the 1186-583 website for quite a while. There s some excellent stuff on it. ... Yes!!! These are really useful pages on the
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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                        Greetings:

                        Cool! I've been admiring the 1186-583 website for quite a while.
                        There's some excellent stuff on it.

                        >We have made some seldjuk/turkish/arabic garbs from end of XIIth century here
                        >http://www.1186-583.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=21
                        >You can see some sharbush style hats here :
                        >http://www.1186-583.org/article.php3?id_article=101
                        >http://www.1186-583.org/article.php3?id_article=145

                        Yes!!! These are really useful pages on the hat i mentioned. I've
                        saved them and bookmarked them, but forgot about it when i made my
                        recommendations :-(

                        >(sorry it is just in French but pictures are useful)

                        I can help translate...

                        >An excellent article about it is here :
                        >http://www.havenonline.com/moas/northstar/vol2no1/An%20Islamic%20Military%20Cap%20(Tarik).htm

                        Alas, the illustrations are missing (and from most of the articles on
                        this site)... did you (or someone else), by chance, save them?

                        --
                        Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                        the persona formerly known as Anahita
                      • Per Braz
                        ... Thanks a lot. I plan to upgrade the website to a new CMS engine before the end of the year, with the possibility to have foreign languages, including
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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                          Le mardi 5 juin 2007, Lilinah a écrit :
                          > Cool! I've been admiring the 1186-583 website for quite a while.
                          > There's some excellent stuff on it.
                          Thanks a lot. I plan to upgrade the website to a new CMS engine before the end
                          of the year, with the possibility to have foreign languages, including
                          English of course. And we haven't pusblished a lot recently as we are working
                          hard on a book project to be released for next year. We should begin again to
                          put stuff during Summer I think, we have quite some new things to show and a
                          lot of ideas :)

                          > >(sorry it is just in French but pictures are useful)
                          > I can help translate...
                          So do I of course :)

                          > Alas, the illustrations are missing (and from most of the articles on
                          > this site)... did you (or someone else), by chance, save them?
                          I don't think
                          I will ask on our internal forum, by chance.
                          All the best
                          Yann aka Per Braz

                          --
                          Per Braz - perbraz@...
                          webmestre http://www.1186-583.org
                        • Lilinah
                          ... As did many Seljuks after they conquered much of Persia :-) Persian culture was THE culture to emulate - even the Abbasid Arabs copied many aspects of
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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                            Sine wrote:
                            >From the email this morning my gentleman is Seljuk. So....
                            >he is Turkish eh? hmmm.....he has a determination to
                            >follow Persian inspirations.

                            As did many Seljuks after they conquered much of Persia :-) Persian
                            culture was THE culture to emulate - even the 'Abbasid Arabs copied
                            many aspects of Persian culture.

                            >So, having the strong Turkish influence there might
                            >be an opportunity for some minor changes...more
                            >elaborate fabrics etc.?

                            Unfortunately, the Mongols followed on the heels of the Seljuks and
                            were quite destructive, so there's a very limited amount of clothing
                            left. There are some garments in modern Turkey, in the Anatolian city
                            of Konya, which was the capital city of the Seljuks of Rum in the
                            12th& 13th centuries. They're in a museum, the Mevlana Museum,
                            dedicated to the famous poet Rumi (so-called because he lived in Rum,
                            i.e., a region that had formerly belonged to the "Romans", what the
                            Byzantines called themselves). Mevlana Celaleddin (or Jalaluddin)
                            Rumi was born in Balkh, a city in medieval Persia, now in
                            Afghanistan. His family fled westward to escape the Mongols. He was a
                            Sufi, the Mevlevi order, sometimes called "whirling dervishes".

                            There are some not-terribly good photos from the museum on-line.
                            [http://rubens.anu.edu.au/raid1/turkey2/cd10/konya/mevlana_tekke/MUSEUM/textiles/clothing/%5d
                            the graphics are freakin' huge (mostly around 1mg!) but should be helpful.

                            As for fabric to use to look royal in, some 2-color damask with small
                            patterns might be good. Colors to go for are rich red, golden yellow,
                            white, and various shades of indigo blue.

                            Another typical early Persian motif is the roundel featuring either a
                            mounted warrior (i.e., on horseback) or a "big cat" attacking an
                            herbivore (deer, camel, bull, other) and often with a "pearl" border
                            (i.e., having a circumference of small solid circles). From what i
                            can tell, roundels were still featured on lampas weave fabric during
                            the Seljuk period.

                            These sorts of patterns are admittedly hard to find in modern fabric
                            - but you never know, you might find some. A few years ago i actually
                            found some white cellulose rayon with indigo printed cintamani (a
                            typical royal Ottoman pattern). The scale was wrong (it was small and
                            Ottomans liked BIG patterns) but i HAD to get some. It's the only
                            time in 8 years i've seen modern commercial cintamani.

                            --
                            Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                            the persona formerly known as Anahita
                          • Lilinah
                            ... Here are a couple Seljuk period fabric fragments i found some time ago at the website of the Cleveland Museum of Art: -- Lampas weave fabric with animals
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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                              I wrote:
                              >As for fabric to use to look royal in, some 2-color damask with
                              >small patterns might be good. Colors to go for are rich red, golden
                              >yellow, white, and various shades of indigo blue.
                              >
                              >Another typical early Persian motif is the roundel featuring either
                              >a mounted warrior (i.e., on horseback) or a "big cat" attacking an
                              >herbivore (deer, camel, bull, other) and often with a "pearl" border
                              >(i.e., having a circumference of small solid circles). From what i
                              >can tell, roundels were still featured on lampas weave fabric during
                              >the Seljuk period.

                              Here are a couple Seljuk period fabric fragments i found some time
                              ago at the website of the Cleveland Museum of Art:
                              -- Lampas weave fabric with animals in roundels
                              [http://www.clevelandart.org/Explore/departmentWork.asp?deptgroup=3&recNo=299]
                              -- Lampas weave fabric of simurghs in medium indigo blue silk and metallic gold
                              [http://www.clevelandart.org/Explore/work.asp?searchText=1945%2E14&recNo=0&tab=2&display=]

                              --
                              Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                              the persona formerly known as Anahita
                            • Lilinah
                              Whew! I finally found the thumbnail pages for those huge Mevlana Tekke files.
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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                                Whew! I finally found the "thumbnail" pages for those huge Mevlana Tekke files.
                                http://rubens.anu.edu.au/turkey/konya/mevlana_tekke/museum/textiles/clothing/index.php?page=1
                                and
                                http://rubens.anu.edu.au/turkey/konya/mevlana_tekke/museum/textiles/clothing/index.php?page=2

                                So, if you've been holding back, now you can preview before clicking...
                                --
                                Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                                the persona formerly known as Anahita
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