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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Recipes for Authentic Candies/treats

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  • Cynthia J Ley
    You might also try hedgehogs (a medieval meatball). The cooks in my shire do these all the time at demos, and they are extremely popular. Arlys On Thu, 31 May
    Message 1 of 21 , Jun 1, 2007
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      You might also try hedgehogs (a medieval meatball). The cooks in my shire
      do these all the time at demos, and they are extremely popular.

      Arlys

      On Thu, 31 May 2007 12:38:30 -0400 "Sarah Michele Ford"
      <saramichelef@...> writes:
      > On 5/31/07, rachelaleclair <rachelaleclair@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > My shire is having a demonstration, and we were discussing making
      > > treats to pass out at the event. Does anyone have any good period
      > > recipees/ideas that have worked well for you?
      >
      >
      > Period gingerbread is really, really easy (the only "period cooking"
      > I've
      > ever done, actually). There's a pretty long thread about it in
      > Stephan's
      > Florilegium -
      > http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-SWEETS/gingerbread-msg.html -
      > probably
      > a good starting spot. The only warning I'd give is that it can be
      > kinda
      > stickymessy.
      >
      > Alianor de R.
      >
      > --
      > *****************************
      > saramichelef@...
      > http://snowplow.org/sarah/pers/
      > http://alphasarah.livejournal.com
      > http://www.flickr.com/people/sarahmichelef
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • bronwynmgn@aol.com
      In a message dated 6/2/2007 7:10:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com writes:
      Message 2 of 21 , Jun 2, 2007
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        In a message dated 6/2/2007 7:10:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
        Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com writes:

        <<You might also try hedgehogs (a medieval meatball). The cooks in my shire
        do these all the time at demos, and they are extremely popular. >>

        Actually, if you follow the hedgehog recipe properly, it's not a meatball at
        all. It's a stuffed pig's stomach. People make meatballs out of the
        stuffing and call them hedgehogs, but the period recipe does not support that
        practice.

        Brangwayna Morgan




        ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com
      • Janis James
        Greetings All, I need advice please. I have costumed Middle Eastern for ladies for a number of years, but have never done much Middle Eastern sewing for men. I
        Message 3 of 21 , Jun 3, 2007
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          Greetings All,
          I need advice please. I have costumed Middle Eastern
          for ladies for a number of years, but have never done
          much Middle Eastern sewing for men.
          I am set and good with the actual clothing. It's the
          headwear that I'm having trouble with right now.
          The gentleman I am sewing for doesn't care for
          turbans and I have always understood that the Kafeya
          with cording band seen today is a rather modern type
          of headwear. The climate here in summer is quite hot
          and he is not comfortable with the turban.
          I am looking around about 1000 ce, and any help
          or ideas would really be appreciated.
          Cheers, Sine

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        • Lilinah
          ... SCAdians (and other non-Muslims) use the term turban far far far too loosely. There is a difference between a turban and a head wrap, but i hear people
          Message 4 of 21 , Jun 4, 2007
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            Sine wrote:
            > The gentleman I am sewing for doesn't care for
            >turbans

            SCAdians (and other non-Muslims) use the term "turban" far far far
            too loosely. There is a difference between a turban and a head wrap,
            but i hear people over and over call a head wrap a turban.

            A *genuine* turban is a very specific marker of high political or
            religious status "in period". A turban was for royalty, important
            religious figures, etc., and its use is often proscribed by law - the
            method of wrapping denoted the individual's status, was well as the
            type of hat over which the turban was wrapped. So turbans are
            generally inappropriate for SCAdians

            Head wraps, on the other hand, are often quite appropriate for
            SCAdians. Head wraps are a great deal simpler than turbans and are
            relatively common.

            Head wraps are still commonly seen throughout Dar al-Islam. Turbans
            are quite rare. I'm not trying to sell you (or the gentleman) on one,
            just to inform.

            (just as the word "veil" is used for an item of clothing for Muslim
            women and non-Muslim women in the Muslim world in such a way as to be
            almost meaningless)

            >and I have always understood that the Kafeya
            >with cording band seen today is a rather modern type
            >of headwear.

            Acutally, there is evidence for a *pure white* head cloth and a
            *simple* filet (not those big thick black and gold agals i see) at
            least in al-Andalus. I have some pictures on my website... if the
            gentleman is a Maghribi or Andalusi.

            >The climate here in summer is quite hot
            >and he is not comfortable with the turban.

            And i bet he isn't a shah, a sultan, a caliph, or an imam who has
            gone on the hajj... so a turban is likely to be inappropriate,
            although a common and simple head wrap might be appropriate.

            > I am looking around about 1000 ce, and any help
            >or ideas would really be appreciated.

            In fact, what just about anyone - adult, child, male, female - just
            about anyplace could wear is a cap. The style varies from time to
            time and place to place.

            So, where is this gentleman from? I can better suggest a style when i
            know his locale.

            --
            Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
            the persona formerly known as Anahita

            Ride your camel to Dar Anahita
            http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah
            SCA-period Near and Middle Eastern Costuming,
            including Persian, Ottoman, Maghribi, and Andalusian,
            Medieval Muslim Egyptian knitting, and
            complete menus and period recipes from seven SCA feasts
            (from German to Persian), 23 German mushroom recipes,
            an analysis of the spices used in two different 13th C. Arabic
            language cookbooks, and more Medieval food-related stuff
          • Janis James
            Urtatim (that s err-tah-TEEM) wrote......... ... .........well, OK.....yes - there is indeed a difference between a turban and a headwrap. As the gentleman I
            Message 5 of 21 , Jun 4, 2007
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              Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) wrote.........
              >SCAdians (and other non-Muslims) use the term "turban" far far far
              >too loosely. There is a difference between a turban and a head wrap,
              >but i hear people over and over call a head wrap a turban....snips......

              .........well, OK.....yes - there is indeed a difference between
              a turban and a headwrap. As the gentleman I am costuming
              for will be Royal I guess it really was appropriate! Our equivalent
              to the Shah, Sultan, Caliph etc., However, as I said he is just not
              comfortable in a Turban. He really doesn't much care for
              a headwrap either - even if that would seem to be more
              acceptable. It seems he gets extremely warm about
              the head and layers of cloth make him very, very uncomfortable.

              ......>Acutally, there is evidence for a *pure white* head cloth and a
              >*simple* filet (not those big thick black and gold agals i see) at
              >least in al-Andalus. I have some pictures on my website... if the
              >gentleman is a Maghribi or Andalusi.

              Now this would be of more interest to him. Something simple
              and cooler to the head........I understand a one strand cord (filet),
              is there a colour restriction for that? He does agree with me that
              it feels more mediaeval to have something on the head - he just
              doesn't want to be miserable in it.

              Apparently he is about 1000 C.E. Persian. You also mentioned a
              cap? Rather like the short Fez, embroidered type?
              Thank you for your time, Sine

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            • Lilinah
              ... Uh, mmm, alas, that white head cloth is not appropriate for a Persian. I think a cap of some sort is going to be more appropriate for the rest of his
              Message 6 of 21 , Jun 4, 2007
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                Sine wrote:
                >Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) wrote.........
                >......>Actually, there is evidence for a *pure white* head cloth and a
                > >*simple* filet (not those big thick black and gold agals i see) at
                >>least in al-Andalus. I have some pictures on my website... if the
                >>gentleman is a Maghribi or Andalusi.
                >
                >Now this would be of more interest to him. Something simple
                >and cooler to the head........I understand a one strand cord (filet),
                >is there a colour restriction for that? He does agree with me that
                >it feels more mediaeval to have something on the head - he just
                >doesn't want to be miserable in it.
                >
                >Apparently he is about 1000 C.E. Persian. You also mentioned a
                >cap? Rather like the short Fez, embroidered type?
                >Thank you for your time,

                Uh, mmm, alas, that white head cloth is not appropriate for a
                Persian. I think a cap of some sort is going to be more appropriate
                for the rest of his clothing.

                Is he Sogdian or Seljuk?

                --
                Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                the persona formerly known as Anahita
              • Janis James
                ... I understand him to be Seljuk........now I m not actually positive about that, just seem to remember that in conversation, can t contact him until tomorrow
                Message 7 of 21 , Jun 4, 2007
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                  .........Urtatim...wrote
                  >Uh, mmm, alas, that white head cloth is not appropriate for a
                  >Persian. I think a cap of some sort is going to be more appropriate
                  >for the rest of his clothing.
                  >
                  >Is he Sogdian or Seljuk?
                  >
                  I understand him to be Seljuk........now I'm not actually positive
                  about that, just seem to remember that in conversation, can't
                  contact him until tomorrow to clarify.
                  Cheers, Sine

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                • j_southwell2002
                  MODERATOR NOTE (please sign all posts to the list and please do not top post to this list, thank you) Despina moderator You might look at Burnoose. In my
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jun 4, 2007
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                    MODERATOR NOTE (please sign all posts to the list and please do not top post to this list, thank you) Despina moderator

                    You might look at Burnoose. In my research for a play they are a
                    popular alternative to the turban. Though I dont know if they go so
                    far back to 1000 ce.
                  • Lilinah
                    ... OK, if he s Seljuk, he s Turkish. They conquered a large part of Persia, but they are Turkish linguistically, ethnically, and culturally. In art i see that
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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                      Sine wrote:
                      >I understand him to be Seljuk........now I'm not actually positive
                      >about that, just seem to remember that in conversation, can't
                      >contact him until tomorrow to clarify.

                      OK, if he's Seljuk, he's Turkish. They conquered a large part of
                      Persia, but they are Turkish linguistically, ethnically, and
                      culturally.

                      In art i see that he would have adapted to wear a turban as royalty,
                      but if he's dead set against it, a fur lined had is the next best
                      thing (yeah, right, i'm sure he'll love that idea :-) You can fake it
                      by making a cap and have the fur on the outside...

                      One hat (but it's for mortals less that the "King") is a basic cap
                      with a rectangular band around the head and the top made of triangles
                      - six would be best, although i've seen simplified versions with only
                      four, but c'mon, if he's royalty he deserves the best :-) Make the
                      parts of the hat that show of the richest jacquard silk fabric you
                      can fine - since it won't use a lot. Then that simple band around the
                      head should be of a nice rich dark brown fur - you can make it on the
                      outside only so it won't be so hot, with a simple comfy fabric on the
                      inside (cotton or linen).

                      One feature of royal caps, at least in the Minai style Seljuk art (i
                      have a real soft spot for Minai style art) is a sort of triangle
                      shape in the center front that sticks up and is gold, at least in
                      paintings, and appears to be backed or edged with fur. In reality it
                      might have been gold metal, but if you can find gilded leather that
                      might be less uncomfortable and quicker to make.

                      This web page has some nice Minai style manuscript illuminations,
                      although they're a bit fuzzy.
                      http://www.geocities.com/egfroth1/Seljuqs.htm

                      The large painting about 2/5 of the way down the page with the caption:
                      "A Seljuq court, from Kitab al Diryaq (the Book of Antidotes) by
                      Pseudo-Gallen, probably from Iraq, mid 13th century. National
                      Bibliothek, Vienna." (i figure that should say Pseudo-Galen)
                      shows the ruler in very large size almost centered. He's wearing that
                      hat i mentioned.

                      Granted, this is about 200 years later than you're looking for, but
                      clothing for rulers was often more conservative than that for
                      ordinary folks, so it may be close to what he could use.

                      Those pointed white hats with the brims do not appear to be for
                      royalty, and in period it was always important to look the part,
                      whatever one's part was. Personal comfort of royalty when out in
                      public didn't matter as much as looking impressive, although in
                      private i'm sure royalty could be a bit more informal.

                      In some versions of the Maqamat of al-Hariri produced in Seljuk
                      controlled Syria in a Seljuk influenced style, shows some men with
                      head wraps around caps - one in particular looks like a qalansuwa - a
                      somewhat tall somewhat pointy hat, generally associated with the
                      ruling class.

                      In a copy of Kalila wa-Dimna dated to 1220 and produced in Seljuk
                      controlled Baghdad all the human men appear to be wearing either
                      turbans or head wraps :-( Many of the illustrations from this book,
                      Ms. arabe 3465,

                      Both books are on-line at the site of the Biblioteque Nationale de France
                      http://expositions.bnf.fr/livrarab/
                      I seem to recall that the section in English has a lot fewer pieces
                      of art than the section in French.

                      Another Seljuk book, the story of Warka wa-Gulshah, the tale of two
                      lovers (his name is variously Romanized into Warqa and Varka; as for
                      her name, "Gul" means "rose"), is also from the early 13th century. I
                      can only assume these early 13th C. works were all pre-Mongol
                      invasion. Again, nearly all the men are shown wearing turbans or head
                      wraps. Most of the illustrations are on-line, scanned from a book
                      that reproduced them mostly in black-and-white (alas).
                      http://www.geocities.com/qilich/varga/

                      There are some color pictures from it at:
                      http://www.ee.bilkent.edu.tr/~history/early.html

                      And there are some illustrations from the 1300s... some before the
                      Mongol invasion and some after here:
                      www.ehttp://e.bilkent.edu.tr/~history/pers-II.html
                      but this is definitely getting rather late for your gentleman's persona.

                      I hope some of this is useful.
                      --
                      Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                      the persona formerly known as Anahita
                    • Lilinah
                      ... Also called selHam in Morocco (i use the capital H to indicate a strong H sound). I ve found evidence for them in North Africa going back to Roman times,
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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                        Unsigned wrote:
                        >You might look at Burnoose. In my research for a play they are a
                        >popular alternative to the turban. Though I dont know if they go so
                        >far back to 1000 ce.

                        Also called selHam in Morocco (i use the capital H to indicate a
                        strong H sound). I've found evidence for them in North Africa going
                        back to Roman times, but i haven't read about or seen them outside
                        North Africa.

                        And in art from Central Asia - original home of the Seljuks, this
                        gentleman's culture - i've seen no suggestion that a hooded cloak was
                        part of the clothing system. Nor have i seen any in any Persian
                        culture from Greco-Roman times to the 17th century. What i see over
                        and over are front-opening "coats".

                        If you have an historical source for Central Asian hooded cloaks,
                        please share, because i've got one that would be comfy to wear for
                        those times i'm wearing Persian rather than North African clothing at
                        events.

                        --
                        Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                        the persona formerly known as Anahita
                      • Per Braz
                        Greetings ! We have made some seldjuk/turkish/arabic garbs from end of XIIth century here http://www.1186-583.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=21 You can see some
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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                          Greetings !
                          We have made some seldjuk/turkish/arabic garbs from end of XIIth century here
                          http://www.1186-583.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=21
                          You can see some sharbush style hats here :
                          http://www.1186-583.org/article.php3?id_article=101
                          http://www.1186-583.org/article.php3?id_article=145
                          (sorry it is just in French but pictures are useful)
                          An excellent article about it is here :
                          http://www.havenonline.com/moas/northstar/vol2no1/An%20Islamic%20Military%20Cap%20
                          (Tarik).htm
                          Atakan al Vefa is an a Seldjuk character, Zahr is Turkish but with some
                          Arabic/Kurdish/Turkmen influences.
                          Hope it can help.
                          Yann aka Per Braz aka Abu Hamir

                          --
                          Per Braz - perbraz@...
                          webmestre http://www.1186-583.org
                        • Janis James
                          Terrific help Urtatim, thanks very much. From the email this morning my gentleman is Seljuk. So.... he is Turkish eh? hmmm.....he has a determination to
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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                            Terrific help Urtatim, thanks very much.
                            From the email this morning my gentleman is Seljuk. So....
                            he is Turkish eh? hmmm.....he has a determination to
                            follow Persian inspirations.
                            So, having the strong Turkish influence there might
                            be an opportunity for some minor changes.......more
                            elaborate fabrics etc.?
                            Thanks again for all your help. Sine

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                          • Lilinah
                            Greetings: Cool! I ve been admiring the 1186-583 website for quite a while. There s some excellent stuff on it. ... Yes!!! These are really useful pages on the
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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                              Greetings:

                              Cool! I've been admiring the 1186-583 website for quite a while.
                              There's some excellent stuff on it.

                              >We have made some seldjuk/turkish/arabic garbs from end of XIIth century here
                              >http://www.1186-583.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=21
                              >You can see some sharbush style hats here :
                              >http://www.1186-583.org/article.php3?id_article=101
                              >http://www.1186-583.org/article.php3?id_article=145

                              Yes!!! These are really useful pages on the hat i mentioned. I've
                              saved them and bookmarked them, but forgot about it when i made my
                              recommendations :-(

                              >(sorry it is just in French but pictures are useful)

                              I can help translate...

                              >An excellent article about it is here :
                              >http://www.havenonline.com/moas/northstar/vol2no1/An%20Islamic%20Military%20Cap%20(Tarik).htm

                              Alas, the illustrations are missing (and from most of the articles on
                              this site)... did you (or someone else), by chance, save them?

                              --
                              Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                              the persona formerly known as Anahita
                            • Per Braz
                              ... Thanks a lot. I plan to upgrade the website to a new CMS engine before the end of the year, with the possibility to have foreign languages, including
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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                                Le mardi 5 juin 2007, Lilinah a écrit :
                                > Cool! I've been admiring the 1186-583 website for quite a while.
                                > There's some excellent stuff on it.
                                Thanks a lot. I plan to upgrade the website to a new CMS engine before the end
                                of the year, with the possibility to have foreign languages, including
                                English of course. And we haven't pusblished a lot recently as we are working
                                hard on a book project to be released for next year. We should begin again to
                                put stuff during Summer I think, we have quite some new things to show and a
                                lot of ideas :)

                                > >(sorry it is just in French but pictures are useful)
                                > I can help translate...
                                So do I of course :)

                                > Alas, the illustrations are missing (and from most of the articles on
                                > this site)... did you (or someone else), by chance, save them?
                                I don't think
                                I will ask on our internal forum, by chance.
                                All the best
                                Yann aka Per Braz

                                --
                                Per Braz - perbraz@...
                                webmestre http://www.1186-583.org
                              • Lilinah
                                ... As did many Seljuks after they conquered much of Persia :-) Persian culture was THE culture to emulate - even the Abbasid Arabs copied many aspects of
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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                                  Sine wrote:
                                  >From the email this morning my gentleman is Seljuk. So....
                                  >he is Turkish eh? hmmm.....he has a determination to
                                  >follow Persian inspirations.

                                  As did many Seljuks after they conquered much of Persia :-) Persian
                                  culture was THE culture to emulate - even the 'Abbasid Arabs copied
                                  many aspects of Persian culture.

                                  >So, having the strong Turkish influence there might
                                  >be an opportunity for some minor changes...more
                                  >elaborate fabrics etc.?

                                  Unfortunately, the Mongols followed on the heels of the Seljuks and
                                  were quite destructive, so there's a very limited amount of clothing
                                  left. There are some garments in modern Turkey, in the Anatolian city
                                  of Konya, which was the capital city of the Seljuks of Rum in the
                                  12th& 13th centuries. They're in a museum, the Mevlana Museum,
                                  dedicated to the famous poet Rumi (so-called because he lived in Rum,
                                  i.e., a region that had formerly belonged to the "Romans", what the
                                  Byzantines called themselves). Mevlana Celaleddin (or Jalaluddin)
                                  Rumi was born in Balkh, a city in medieval Persia, now in
                                  Afghanistan. His family fled westward to escape the Mongols. He was a
                                  Sufi, the Mevlevi order, sometimes called "whirling dervishes".

                                  There are some not-terribly good photos from the museum on-line.
                                  [http://rubens.anu.edu.au/raid1/turkey2/cd10/konya/mevlana_tekke/MUSEUM/textiles/clothing/%5d
                                  the graphics are freakin' huge (mostly around 1mg!) but should be helpful.

                                  As for fabric to use to look royal in, some 2-color damask with small
                                  patterns might be good. Colors to go for are rich red, golden yellow,
                                  white, and various shades of indigo blue.

                                  Another typical early Persian motif is the roundel featuring either a
                                  mounted warrior (i.e., on horseback) or a "big cat" attacking an
                                  herbivore (deer, camel, bull, other) and often with a "pearl" border
                                  (i.e., having a circumference of small solid circles). From what i
                                  can tell, roundels were still featured on lampas weave fabric during
                                  the Seljuk period.

                                  These sorts of patterns are admittedly hard to find in modern fabric
                                  - but you never know, you might find some. A few years ago i actually
                                  found some white cellulose rayon with indigo printed cintamani (a
                                  typical royal Ottoman pattern). The scale was wrong (it was small and
                                  Ottomans liked BIG patterns) but i HAD to get some. It's the only
                                  time in 8 years i've seen modern commercial cintamani.

                                  --
                                  Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                                  the persona formerly known as Anahita
                                • Lilinah
                                  ... Here are a couple Seljuk period fabric fragments i found some time ago at the website of the Cleveland Museum of Art: -- Lampas weave fabric with animals
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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                                    I wrote:
                                    >As for fabric to use to look royal in, some 2-color damask with
                                    >small patterns might be good. Colors to go for are rich red, golden
                                    >yellow, white, and various shades of indigo blue.
                                    >
                                    >Another typical early Persian motif is the roundel featuring either
                                    >a mounted warrior (i.e., on horseback) or a "big cat" attacking an
                                    >herbivore (deer, camel, bull, other) and often with a "pearl" border
                                    >(i.e., having a circumference of small solid circles). From what i
                                    >can tell, roundels were still featured on lampas weave fabric during
                                    >the Seljuk period.

                                    Here are a couple Seljuk period fabric fragments i found some time
                                    ago at the website of the Cleveland Museum of Art:
                                    -- Lampas weave fabric with animals in roundels
                                    [http://www.clevelandart.org/Explore/departmentWork.asp?deptgroup=3&recNo=299]
                                    -- Lampas weave fabric of simurghs in medium indigo blue silk and metallic gold
                                    [http://www.clevelandart.org/Explore/work.asp?searchText=1945%2E14&recNo=0&tab=2&display=]

                                    --
                                    Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                                    the persona formerly known as Anahita
                                  • Lilinah
                                    Whew! I finally found the thumbnail pages for those huge Mevlana Tekke files.
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Jun 5, 2007
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                                      Whew! I finally found the "thumbnail" pages for those huge Mevlana Tekke files.
                                      http://rubens.anu.edu.au/turkey/konya/mevlana_tekke/museum/textiles/clothing/index.php?page=1
                                      and
                                      http://rubens.anu.edu.au/turkey/konya/mevlana_tekke/museum/textiles/clothing/index.php?page=2

                                      So, if you've been holding back, now you can preview before clicking...
                                      --
                                      Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                                      the persona formerly known as Anahita
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