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REALLY looooong tippets and kids...

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  • Kim C
    Sadly, I do not remember the source, so cannot vouch for its veracity, but I seem to recall hearing/reading something about little kids having extra long
    Message 1 of 17 , Apr 24, 2007
      Sadly, I do not remember the source, so cannot vouch for its veracity,
      but I seem to recall hearing/reading something about little kids having
      extra long tippets (14th century, France/England) so their parents
      could use them as leashes for going to the market and out and about
      without losing them in the crowd. From what I remember, also, they
      would be sort of tied or pinned up in the back when not in use as
      a "leash". Can anyone substantiate this? Or any other practice at the
      time to keep kids reigned (pun intended) in?

      ~Ysabel de Lille
      Getting ready for the camping season with an almost 4-yr old and a
      recently mobile 1 year old
    • Madeleine Delacroix
      [MODERATOR NOTE - As a courtesy to the many members who receive their messages from this list in digest form, please do not top post and please edit the post
      Message 2 of 17 , Apr 24, 2007
        [MODERATOR NOTE - As a courtesy to the many members who receive their messages from this list in digest form, please do not top post and please edit the post you are responding to so that you are only repeating the important parts. Thank you. Jehanne de Wodeford, Pacific Time Zone Moderator]

        I read this too..let me see if I remember where it was, in my reference it had to be Elizabethan and they were talking about a special section of collar..let me see if I can find it..

        [SNIPPED BY MODERATOR]
        Kim C <ysabel_delille@...> wrote: Sadly, I do not remember the source, so cannot vouch for its veracity,
        but I seem to recall hearing/reading something about little kids having
        extra long tippets (14th century, France/England) so their parents
        could use them as leashes for going to the market and out and about
        without losing them in the crowd.
      • Madeleine Delacroix
        http://modehistorique.com/elizabethan/kids.html I replied already and then remembered where I saw this..a few paragraphs down..
        Message 3 of 17 , Apr 24, 2007
          http://modehistorique.com/elizabethan/kids.html I replied already
          and then remembered where I saw this..a few paragraphs down..
        • Kim C
          So...nothing earlier than 1477? MEH! I was so hoping that would be for around 1350! So how did earlier periods keep hold of their kids? I KNOW they couldn t
          Message 4 of 17 , Apr 24, 2007
            So...nothing earlier than 1477? MEH! I was so hoping that would be
            for around 1350! So how did earlier periods keep hold of their kids?
            I KNOW they couldn't have ALL done the "buddy system" or hand holding
            thing. Would it be still feasible to do long sleeve tippets on mid-
            14th century kids to keep hold of them?

            ~Ysabel de Lille
          • Madeleine Delacroix
            Well, the only thing i can think of is somewhere I read that they used to place a corner of the child s clothing under a table or chair leg to keep them out of
            Message 5 of 17 , Apr 24, 2007
              Well, the only thing i can think of is somewhere I read that they used to place a corner of the child's clothing under a table or chair leg to keep them out of the fire..but why couldn't they have used a ribbon or something as a lead earlier than that?? I know what you mean, I have a 2 yr old and although I normally don't worry because he's good in public, I think I may make a sash on his gown, like the Prince Edward (Henry's son) portrait.Just have to be careful with kids wrapping it around themselves..taking it off when not needed(I'm sure I really don't have to add this for you, but maybe for someone else)

              Madeleine



              ---------------------------------
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            • Karen
              The closest thing I can think of (in pre-17th century examples) is this illustration from the 16th century Schwartze Trachtenbuch:
              Message 6 of 17 , Apr 25, 2007
                The closest thing I can think of (in pre-17th century examples) is this illustration from the 16th century Schwartze Trachtenbuch:
                http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/MI05036f02a.jpg
                It seems to be a long piece of material, wrapped under the boy's arms and across his chest, by which he is being held up to better learn to walk.

                There's also a set of braces that Mary, Queen of Scots, is supposed to have embroidered for her son; I don't know that they appear online anywhere, but you can find a photo of them in "The Needlework of Mary Queen of Scots" by Margaret Swain.

                In the 17th & 18th century, there's a similar *sort* of concept -- "leading strings," which seem to attach to the shoulders or the back of the child's gown -- see the following examples:
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Pieter_de_Hooch_007_detail.jpg
                http://www.wga.hu/html/h/hooch/2/peeling.html
                http://www.wga.hu/html/t/thijs/portrait.html
                http://www.getty.edu/art/gettyguide/artObjectDetails?artobj=110330 (far left)
                http://www.18cnewenglandlife.org/18cnel/children.htm for more information.

                Since most sleeve-streamers (what I think you mean by "tippets") were white, and rarely appear on children in the 14th century (I certainly haven't found any examples yet, but just because I haven't found it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist), I wouldn't imagine that they would have been used as a safety device. You can see my collection of links to images of children's clothing at http://www.larsdatter.com/children.htm

                Karen
              • Kim C
                Thanks everyone! You all are the greatest with info! :D ~Ysabel de Lille
                Message 7 of 17 , Apr 25, 2007
                  Thanks everyone! You all are the greatest with info! :D

                  ~Ysabel de Lille
                • mary_m_haselbauer
                  That sounds like a good idea but I m not sure if attaching a cord like that to the forearm would work/be safe. If you had to pull on the leading strings in an
                  Message 8 of 17 , Apr 26, 2007
                    That sounds like a good idea but I'm not sure if attaching a cord
                    like that to the forearm would work/be safe. If you had to pull on
                    the leading strings in an emergency you could break an arm.

                    My daughter is so very mobile too and I've been consideirng a
                    plauibly period harness and leash with tablet woven straps and
                    pewter buckles. I'm not sure how she'll like it but I need to do
                    something to banish the images I have of her darting between tents
                    and heading into the lake while I'm caught in someone's ropes. Maybe
                    I've been reading too much from Barbara Hanawalt. :)

                    I am enjoying the period pictues of kids. I had not seen that
                    particular walker before.

                    Cheers,
                    Slaine
                    B3R Calontir

                    > but I seem to recall hearing/reading something about little kids
                    having
                    > extra long tippets (14th century, France/England) so their parents
                    >
                  • djmccreary@peoplepc.com
                    Ive been working on making a harness (basically copied the pattern from a modern toddler harness I got a walmart for mundane use) out of strips of tablet
                    Message 9 of 17 , Apr 27, 2007
                      Ive been working on making a harness (basically copied the pattern from a modern toddler harness I got a walmart for mundane use) out of strips of tablet weaving. I've never seen anything like it exactly, but Ive decided its got to be better than just a modern harness. My only problem with the harness system is my two year old learned that when he really didnt want to go where I did, all he had to do was throw himself down on the ground.

                      Ghita


                      No trees were killed in the sending of this message,
                      but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • GreyGoose
                      ... that when he really didnt want to go where I did, all he had to do was throw himself down on the ground. ... I had a similar problem with my ADHD son. It
                      Message 10 of 17 , Apr 27, 2007
                        On Fri, 27 Apr 2007, djmccreary@... wrote:

                        > <snips> My only problem with the harness system is my two year old learned
                        that when he really didnt want to go where I did, all he had to do was throw
                        himself down on the ground.
                        >
                        > Ghita

                        I had a similar problem with my ADHD son. It was imperative that I keep
                        him on the leash as voice control wasn't achieved for *many* years (at
                        times, I don't think we're there yet, and he turns 21 this summer). My
                        solution was pretty draconian - he threw himself down, I picked him up,
                        threw him over my shoulder, and off we went - him usually pitching a holy
                        fit. By the time he would hit the ground, he was beyond reasoning with
                        and this was the only way we would get where we were going. However, now
                        that he is 6'5", I have a little trouble with this technique, but I still
                        threaten him with the leash.

                        Janina
                        who put his safety above authenticity
                      • Dianne & Greg Stucki
                        ... Heh. My oldest ADHD boy will be 24 this fall, and we re STILL not there! I love the idea of copying a mundane harness in tablet weaving. I wish I had
                        Message 11 of 17 , Apr 29, 2007
                          At 06:13 PM 4/27/2007, you wrote:
                          >Ghita
                          >
                          >I had a similar problem with my ADHD son. It was imperative that I keep
                          >him on the leash as voice control wasn't achieved for *many* years (at
                          >times, I don't think we're there yet, and he turns 21 this summer).


                          Heh. My oldest ADHD boy will be 24 this fall, and we're STILL not there!

                          I love the idea of copying a mundane harness in tablet weaving. I
                          wish I had thought of it when my youngest was still using his.

                          He's five now, and though he still has unnerving tendency to
                          disappear in less time than it blinks an eye (especially harrowing at
                          an event whose site features a lovely deep creek, like yesterday--I'm
                          sure everyone on site knew his name!) we don't use the leash anymore.
                          Then again, though he is extremely intelligent, this one doesn't have
                          ADHD. (thank you God!)

                          Laurensa
                        • velvetclad
                          little kids having ... any other practice at the ... Just wanted to share a bit about harness s for children. My oldest was quite offended as a toddler when I
                          Message 12 of 17 , May 1 9:23 AM
                            little kids having
                            > extra long tippets (14th century, France/England) so their parents
                            > could use them as leashes for going to the market and out and about
                            > without losing them in the crowd. Can anyone substantiate this? Or
                            any other practice at the
                            > time to keep kids reigned (pun intended) in?
                            >
                            > ~Ysabel de Lille
                            >
                            Just wanted to share a bit about harness's for children. My oldest was
                            quite offended as a toddler when I introduced a harness...she seemed to
                            think that it was quite beneath her dignity to be so ensnared. But my
                            youngest LOVED it. In fact, each time she was "harnessed" she "became"
                            an animal and acted accordingly. Everyone smailed to see my little girl
                            meowing adorably or prancing like a pony, but do you realize how long
                            it takes to do your grocery shopping with an alligator? (yes, crawling
                            on her belly, growling ominiously at all passers by) reading your posts
                            brought back many memories and I thank you!
                            Anna
                          • Andrea Hughett
                            I thought of this thread in church this Sunday as I watched the mother of a very active toddler trying to ride herd on said toddler, whom she had prudently
                            Message 13 of 17 , May 2 6:05 AM
                              I thought of this thread in church this Sunday as I
                              watched the mother of a very active toddler trying to
                              ride herd on said toddler, whom she had prudently
                              dressed in a shirt with a hood. It might not have been
                              as long as a tippet or a harness, but that hood did
                              prove very useful.


                              Andrea of Anglespur
                              kitscaa Gwervyl verch Hywel Gwyddwyllt
                              So many books, so little time!

                              __________________________________________________
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                            • xina007eu
                              ... veracity, ... having ... the ... Such a tippet , when attached to the shoulder of a dress, is called a ribbon of childhood (in German, Gängelband , a
                              Message 14 of 17 , May 2 9:30 AM
                                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Kim C" <ysabel_delille@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Sadly, I do not remember the source, so cannot vouch for its
                                veracity,
                                > but I seem to recall hearing/reading something about little kids
                                having
                                > extra long tippets (14th century, France/England) so their parents
                                > could use them as leashes for going to the market and out and about
                                > without losing them in the crowd. From what I remember, also, they
                                > would be sort of tied or pinned up in the back when not in use as
                                > a "leash". Can anyone substantiate this? Or any other practice at
                                the
                                > time to keep kids reigned (pun intended) in?
                                >
                                > ~Ysabel de Lille
                                > Getting ready for the camping season with an almost 4-yr old and a
                                > recently mobile 1 year old
                                >

                                Such a "tippet", when attached to the shoulder of a dress, is called
                                a "ribbon of childhood" (in German, "Gängelband", a word that is
                                still used metaphorically today although most people don't know what
                                it originally meant). Often the toddlers also wore a kind of padded
                                headband so they didn't hurt their heads when they fell. There are
                                some Dutch 17th century paintings where an adult is shown holding a
                                toddler by these ribbons. A very cute 18th century porcelain
                                representation is here:
                                http://www.tafelkultur.de/bamberg8a.jpg

                                16th and 17th century tombs on the British Isles often show female
                                mourners with what are either hanging sleeves or ribbons of childhood
                                knotted or pinned up behind their backs. Unfortunately, one cannot
                                always tell whether a specific mourner is supposed to be a woman or a
                                small girl - the representations are often very stylized, and they
                                all wear the same clothes. They tend to be graded in size, and I
                                suppose the smallest ones at the back are usually children.

                                There is a kind of "baby walker" in Shakespeare's birthplace, a
                                contraption a baby was strapped into and then could walk round and
                                round a wooden pillar - it's years since I was there, so I don't
                                remember it very clearly, but you might find pictures of it online.
                                It might look a bit cruel but IIRC it was in the kitchen and kept the
                                baby away from the fire and the sharp knives. I am not sure when it
                                dates from.

                                Hope that helps!

                                Best regards,

                                Christina
                              • lonewolfyca
                                Hail! My son is the same as your youngest. At first when we tried the harness, he didn t like it because he couldn t run free. But our first venture with it
                                Message 15 of 17 , May 2 9:44 AM
                                  Hail!

                                  My son is the same as your youngest. At first when we tried the
                                  harness, he didn't like it because he couldn't run free. But our first
                                  venture with it was actually March Crown in Red Bluff (West Kingdom).
                                  I know that it wasn't really a "period" item [it's a little monkey,
                                  its arms wrap around his chest and clasp together, and the long tail
                                  is actually the leash] but he was so distracted by all the interesting
                                  things at Court and on the Eric (and especially on the Merchant's
                                  row!) that he didn't care. It looked more like we were carrying
                                  around a favored pet, anyway -- and we loved the cute comments we got
                                  {"Watch out, lad, there's a monkey on your back!")

                                  And now.. he wants it on as soon as he sees it, and gets really mad if
                                  you try to take it off of him (and I'm so grateful, since we're off to
                                  Beltane Coronation in Cloverdale this weekend!). So if you see a two
                                  year old boy wearing a monkey, please say hi to us -- it's only our
                                  second event, and we'd love some new friends to talk with, and learn
                                  from (I would LOVE to get ideas for better garb than what I have)!

                                  Bright Blessings,
                                  Adrienne and Ian of Ravenshore

                                  > Just wanted to share a bit about harness's for children. My oldest was
                                  > quite offended as a toddler when I introduced a harness...she seemed to
                                  > think that it was quite beneath her dignity to be so ensnared. But my
                                  > youngest LOVED it. In fact, each time she was "harnessed" she "became"
                                  > an animal and acted accordingly. Everyone smailed to see my little girl
                                  > meowing adorably or prancing like a pony, but do you realize how long
                                  > it takes to do your grocery shopping with an alligator? (yes, crawling
                                  > on her belly, growling ominiously at all passers by) reading your posts
                                  > brought back many memories and I thank you!
                                  > Anna
                                  >
                                • Sandra Dodd
                                  -=-Often the toddlers also wore a kind of padded headband so they didn t hurt their heads when they fell. -=- I saw that called a pudding. There s a
                                  Message 16 of 17 , May 2 11:57 AM
                                    -=-Often the toddlers also wore a kind of padded
                                    headband so they didn't hurt their heads when they fell. -=-

                                    I saw that called "a pudding." There's a painting of a kid with one
                                    on, somewhere...

                                    AElflaed of Duckford
                                    Outlands

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • ranvaig@columbus.rr.com
                                    ... In English, they are sometimes called Leading Strings . I noticed anyone mention that term. Usually they fasten to the arm scye or shoulder of the dress,
                                    Message 17 of 17 , May 2 8:51 PM
                                      >Such a "tippet", when attached to the shoulder of a dress, is called
                                      >a "ribbon of childhood" (in German, "Gängelband", a word that is
                                      >still used metaphorically today although most people don't know what
                                      >it originally meant).

                                      In English, they are sometimes called "Leading
                                      Strings". I noticed anyone mention that term.
                                      Usually they fasten to the arm scye or shoulder
                                      of the dress, not the sleeve like a tippet would.

                                      Ranvaig
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