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Re: Stupid questions

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  • r0hanian
    Well, early period would be great (my character is 9th century arabian/turk living in Crete) but basically anything goes. I have only 2 costumes at the moment
    Message 1 of 20 , Mar 4, 2007
      Well, early period would be great (my character is 9th century
      arabian/turk living in Crete) but basically anything goes. I have only
      2 costumes at the moment because I broke my silk bysantinian costume
      and I have not yet figured out how to fix it... and I really need new
      clothes ;)

      ~Amal

      "Amy Heilveil" <amyheilveil@...> wrote:
      >
      > Lovely fabric. What time frame are you looking to date the colors?
      I don't
      > think you'll have a problem with it.
    • Beth Lokey
      You might check with the SCA_India group. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA_India/ You don t have to be a member to read their messages and look at their
      Message 2 of 20 , Mar 5, 2007
        You might check with the SCA_India group.



        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA_India/





        You don't have to be a member to read their messages and look at their
        links.

        Mina





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Amy Heilveil
        Depending on the period, they re all correct. The pink is very period for most of the SCA time frame, as is the purple. The blue a little less so, but it
        Message 3 of 20 , Mar 5, 2007
          Depending on the period, they're all correct. The pink is very period for
          most of the SCA time frame, as is the purple. The blue a little less so, but
          it still works for most time frames.

          Smiles,
          Despina de la loves the purple you've got


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Lilinah
          My apologies for this late response, but Yahoo has been bouncing my mail a lot in the last week and a half... ... First, questions are not stupid. If we don t
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 8, 2007
            My apologies for this late response, but Yahoo has been bouncing my
            mail a lot in the last week and a half...

            Amal binti Hala Al-Chania wrote:
            >Sorry about my stupid questions, but if there is anyone who is able to
            >help me...

            First, questions are not stupid. If we don't know or understand
            something and we don't ask, we don't learn or we misunderstand.
            Asking questions and getting answers lifts the veil of ignorance. It
            is perhaps more stupid not to ask and remain ignorant or confused.

            >I am planning to make Arabian/Turkish dress from them but I want to
            >make sure first are they authentic or not.

            First, the vestimentary systems of Arab cultures are quite different
            from those of Turkish/Central Asian cultures.
            -- Arab systems feature garments that either slip on over the head =
            tunics (borrowed from the Greeks and Romans who ruled the area for
            many centuries) or wrapped garments composed of flat rectangles of
            various dimensions (indigenous).
            -- Turkish/Central Asian systems feature garments that open in the
            front ("coats"), although under tunics often slip on over the head
            and have long central slits in the front or, sometimes for men,
            off-center slits.
            -- Both systems have pants with a draw-string waist, worn by both men
            and women, but these pants differ. The sirwal (pl. sarawil) of the
            Arab system tends to have legs that are the same width from hip to
            ankle. The shalvar (various spellings) have legs that are quite wide
            at the hip and thigh, and narrow at the ankle.
            -- There are also differences in colors preferred or avoided, and
            motifs and the scale of motifs used in textiles.

            Second, i would ask "which Turkish?" There is a multitude of Turkish
            cultures that are important within the time span of the SCA, the
            Seljuks being the most significant; but there are also Uighur,
            Buyyid, Turkoman, etc.

            So it's important to differentiate, first, between cultures based on
            Central Asian clothing systems and those based on Arab systems, and,
            second, among the different Turkic cultures.

            Also, which culture and time period you choose will determine what
            fabric patterns and to some extent what colors are appropriate, not
            to mention the style of the garments.

            >I have couple of questions regarding
            >authentic fabrics (esp. in Asia/India area). I have two Sarees (both
            >silk) but I am a bit unsure about the colours. First saree is purple
            >silkchiffon
            >http://pics.livejournal.com/ignata/pic/0004e1xf/
            >with lighter pallu
            >http://pics.livejournal.com/ignata/pic/0004fr5y/
            >It's transparent and therefore I am not totally sure should I use it
            >at all.

            First, sheerness... From what i can tell, sheer fabrics were not much
            used in outer garments. Linen or cotton under garments were often
            *quite sheer*, based on both surviving garments and paintings from
            al-Andalus and the Persian and Ottoman Empires. Outer garments,
            however, were not sheer, other than head veils for women in some
            Islamic cultures.

            Outer garments were meant to present both a modest image and to show
            one's status. So unless one was a very devout and conservative
            Muslim, then one would have outer garments of the best fabric they
            could afford. Clearly that is your intent with intense colors and
            metallic threads, so you're on the right track.

            Next, the pattern in the fabric. The pattern looks good for Persian,
            if Persian paintings can be trusted to be close to reality (since
            what's shown in paintings is often different from designs on
            surviving fabrics). 15th and 16th C. Persian paintings often show
            both men and women wearing garments of a solid color with small gold
            motifs. Ottoman (if that is what you mean by Turkish) fabrics nearly
            always had VERY LARGE motifs (for example, a pattern might repeat
            only 1-1/2 times in a man's kaftan). So the fine motifs of this
            fabric are unsuitable for Ottoman. I am not sure about the Seljuks,
            as we have less material culture surviving from them - plenty of art,
            but fewer textiles.

            Third, the color is not particularly suitable for Arab or Ottoman
            garments (and i suspect not for Seljuk either). Purple was identified
            with the Christian Byzantines and therefore not used much in most
            Islamic cultures. The Persians often did things rather differently
            from the more Arabic cultures. However, i've never seen any actual
            purple Persian fabric. Also, the particular hue of purple (at least
            as it looks on my monitor) is very modern and not like what i've seen
            within SCA period.

            In Roman and early Islamic Egypt sometimes the tapestry woven clavi
            and segmentae on Roman style tunics were worked with "purple" wool.
            The color is now nearly black, but chemical analysis shows that often
            this wool was madder overdyed with indigo, which makes a dark
            brownish purple.

            The purple of clavi on important Roman men's togas and of Byzantine
            royal family garments was usually from murex (a sea snail, and which
            can give a range of colors from dark blue to purple to dark red). But
            to the best of my knowledge this dye was not used in the Islamic
            world.

            It is a beautiful fabric, but based on what i know, not really
            suitable for Near Eastern clothing, if you want authenticity. It
            might work for Indian - i know less about the Mughal/Moghul cultures
            than i do about cultures in the Middle and Near East.

            Re the blue sari:
            The color is a little closer to a "period" color. I can't tell what
            the scale of the motifs is, but they might be too small for Ottoman,
            so this might work for a garment from the Arab vestimentary system.

            Or are the blue and purple pictures from the same sari?
            In going back and re-reading your post, i think perhaps i am
            misunderstanding and these two pictures are parts of one cloth. If
            so, the colors appear quite different on my monitor, so i am not
            certain of what color the cloth is. However, if both are part of the
            same sari, it is still likely that the color is the modern so-called
            "purple", which is a blue violet and not "SCA-period", since dyes of
            this color only developed in the 19th century with the advent of
            synthetic dyes.

            Anyway, if you want a "purple" fabric, the more "period" color is
            that produced by some Indian lac insects. They make a color close to
            what in paint is called "purple lake", a color more like what we
            might call maroon or burgundy. And from what i can tell, this color
            is closer to what is meant by "purple" in period writing, and
            apparently still by the French today. What we call "purple" here in
            the US is a bluer color, called "violet" by the French, and available
            with the advent of purely synthetic dyes in the mid to late 19th
            century.

            >Second saree is pink(ish) silk with golden border
            >http://pics.livejournal.com/ignata/pic/0004g8yt/

            To me, the fuchsia looks a bit strong and synthetic for SCA clothing.
            I've seen muted rose colored silk in an early 17th century Ottoman
            garment (remember "dusty rose" from a few decades ago?), but it was
            not an intense color as this sari appears to be.

            Also, from what i can tell of my study of fabrics and garments of
            both the Near and Middle East, fully saturated colors were generally
            preferred, especially for reds. Yes, one can make a sort of "hot
            pink" from kermes, but from what i've seen of textiles of the
            SCA-period Islamic world, this was not a sought after color. It takes
            a LOT of kermes to give a strong red, so a saturated kermes/lac
            insect red was a way of showing off one's wealth, rather than a
            not-fully saturated fuchsia/"hot pink"/magenta/etc. Kermes was
            generally reserved for silk, although it will dye wool. Note that i'm
            speaking here of the Near and Middle East.

            For those who couldn't afford the rich cool-red of kermes or other
            lac insect dye there was madder root, which makes a warm-red and was
            rather commonly used. Madder can give a range of reds, from a rich
            warm red, a more orangey "tomato soup" red, a deep orange, red-brown,
            to a dark warm brown. More people could afford madder dyed fabric.
            Madder was used to dye wool, linen, and cotton, and less often for
            silk. The complex process later known to Europeans as "turkey red",
            was developed to dye linen and cotton.

            So if you want a reddish fabric, then a fully saturated red would be
            authentic, either a cool kermes (cochineal) red or a warm madder red,
            but this fuchsia doesn't look like a "period" color to me.

            As for other colors, indigo was generally used fully saturated, but
            less saturated indigo blues were also used. Besides being used on
            wool and silk, indigo was used to dye linen and cotton. Often a
            single linen or cotton fabric would have stripes - sometimes in both
            the warp and the weft - of two or three shades of indigo blue.

            Less saturated colors of all sorts show up as accent colors in
            complex brocades, especially in 16th century Persian and Ottoman
            Empires.

            To me the issue is less whether one can achieve certain colors with
            certain dyes, and more a question of whether people in a particular
            culture, in a particular time and place, actually wanted those less
            saturated colors.

            >Second problem is to decide that kind of dress to make if the silks
            >are ok to SCA-use :D

            In my opinion, if you want authenticity, the first thing to do is
            study the specific styles of garment fabrics - you don't need to know
            how to make them, unless you really want to :-) - but it helps to
            know what the fabrics of particular cultures and times period looked
            like BEFORE you go fabric shopping. Then it is much easier to buy
            suitable colors and patterns.

            We modern people have an amazing array of colors available to us
            today, both natural and synthetic. While modern natural dyers mix
            dyes from 5 or 6 continents all sorts of ways to create a wide range
            of colors, in the Near and Middle East of the SCA period, a much more
            limited range of colors was used. Overdyeing was used to produce some
            colors, such as a more colorfast green, but these were not the
            preferred dyes. For example, the Geniza documents from Fatimid Egypt
            indicate that green fabric (which was yellow, often weld, overdyed
            with indigo) was less expensive than fabric dyed with a single dye.

            I have a few examples of Persian fabrics on my web site:
            http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/Textiles/Actual_Persian_Fabrics/persianfabrics.html
            and slightly more examples of Ottoman fabrics:
            http://earthlink/~al-qurtubiyya/RealOttoFabric.html

            A good general reference for textiles in the Islamic world is:
            Patricia L. Baker.
            Islamic Textiles.
            London: British Museum Press, 1995.
            ISBN 0714125229

            It is out of print and not cheap. I recommend getting it via ILL
            (Inter-Library Loan). It is the best survey of the topic and had many
            lovely full color photos, as well as some info on dyes and textile
            techniques. If the Islamic world is your area of focus, and
            authenticity is your goal, it's worth having in your library.

            To sum up, neither the colors, patterns, or sheerness of these saris
            is very suitable for SCA-period garments in the Islamic world.

            These saris may be suitable for Mughal/Moghal clothing, but i know
            less about that cultural area. There is an SCA list devoted to
            SCA-perid India where you could ask:
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA_India

            --
            Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
            the persona formerly known as Anahita
          • Lilinah
            BTW, you re looking into the period of the Abbasid dynasty. Black is definitely NOT suitable for garments in this period, unless you are part of the ruling
            Message 5 of 20 , Mar 8, 2007
              BTW, you're looking into the period of the 'Abbasid dynasty. Black is
              definitely NOT suitable for garments in this period, unless you are
              part of the ruling family, since black was "their" color and the
              color of their flag.

              --
              Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
              the persona formerly known as Anahita
            • Kathryn
              Urtatim wrote: I have a few examples of Persian fabrics on my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/Textiles/Actual_Persian_Fabrics/persianfa
              Message 6 of 20 , Mar 8, 2007
                Urtatim wrote:
                "I have a few examples of Persian fabrics on my web site:
                http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/Textiles/Actual_Persian_Fabrics/persianfa
                brics.html
                and slightly more examples of Ottoman fabrics:
                http://earthlink/~al-qurtubiyya/RealOttoFabric.html"

                These links don't seem to work for me. Is there a fix?
                Thanks, Kathryn


                **************************************************************************
              • Lilinah
                ... My apologies. This one is case specific: http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/Textiles/Actual_Persian_Fabrics/PersianFabrics.html And on this one i left out
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 8, 2007
                  >Urtatim wrote:
                  >> I have a few examples of Persian fabrics on my web site:
                  > >
                  >http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/Textiles/Actual_Persian_Fabrics/persianfabrics.html
                  >> and slightly more examples of Ottoman fabrics:
                  > > http://earthlink/~al-qurtubiyya/RealOttoFabric.html
                  >
                  >These links don't seem to work for me. Is there a fix?
                  >Thanks, Kathryn

                  My apologies.

                  This one is case specific:
                  http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/Textiles/Actual_Persian_Fabrics/PersianFabrics.html

                  And on this one i left out several key parts of the address:
                  http://home.earthlink.net/~al-qurtubiyya/Fabric/RealOttoFabric.html

                  Sorry about that. And thanks for catching it.

                  --
                  Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                  the persona formerly known as Anahita
                • Beth and Bob Matney
                  ... Urtatim, I ve acquired a pretty good reference collection on textiles most of the Islamic cultures, but I m a bit weak on Persian. What references do you
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 8, 2007
                    At 01:59 PM 3/8/2007, Urtatim wrote:
                    >This one is case specific:
                    >http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/Textiles/Actual_Persian_Fabrics/PersianFabrics.html

                    Urtatim,

                    I've acquired a pretty good reference collection on textiles most of the
                    Islamic cultures, but I'm a bit weak on Persian. What references do you
                    suggest?

                    Most of my textile/costume reference books (though I have a long way to go
                    for other topics) are now cataloged online at www.librarything.com Search
                    for user "Castlegrounds".

                    Beth
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