Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Concerning targes, can anyone confirm or refute this?

Expand Messages
  • borderlands15213
    More years ago than I care to admit to, a Scottish acquaintance of mine who is also a self-styled expert and authority on *all* things Scottish, informed me
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 8, 2007
      More years ago than I care to admit to, a Scottish acquaintance of
      mine who is also a self-styled expert and authority on *all* things
      Scottish, informed me that the ancient Scots used to bury their targes
      for a given period of time before the first use, to effectually create
      *cuir bouilli,* although he didn't use or even know that term (not
      much on foreign languages.) The point he intended to make was that
      this resulted in exceptionally tough leather.

      Does anyone here know first whether or not this was done; and second,
      if it was done, if it had that effect?

      Thanks.
      Yseult the Gentle
    • gedney@OPTONLINE.NET
      ... unless you bury it in some soil like that in a peat bog buried leather --- rots Capt Elias [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 9, 2007
        >
        > Does anyone here know first whether or not this was done; and second,
        > if it was done, if it had that effect?

        unless you bury it in some "soil" like that in a peat bog


        buried leather --- rots

        Capt Elias


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Sandra Dodd
        -=-buried leather --- rots-=- It wouldn t if you buried it in the desert, in sand. We can dig stuff up in New Mexico (not in the mountains or in the river
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 9, 2007
          -=-buried leather --- rots-=-

          It wouldn't if you buried it in the desert, in sand.

          We can dig stuff up in New Mexico (not in the mountains or in the
          river valley, but on the llano and mesas and desert, most of the
          state...) that's not too rotten. Even if you wanted it to rot.
          Composting takes a while.

          I don't know about treating leather that way, but y'know how they
          preserve flowers with sand? Turn the flower upside down in a glass
          and fill it gently with warm sand? Maybe...

          Where was this leather supposed to have been allegedly theoretically
          buried?

          AElflaed
          Outlands

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • tasha_medvedeva
          ... {snip} ... Scotland. They re kind of short on deserts there. Tasha
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 9, 2007
            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
            >
            >> -=-buried leather --- rots-=-
            >
            > It wouldn't if you buried it in the desert, in sand.
            >
            {snip}
            >
            > Where was this leather supposed to have been allegedly theoretically
            > buried?
            >
            > AElflaed
            > Outlands

            Scotland. They're kind of short on deserts there.

            Tasha
          • Kevin Myers
            Madainn mhath a h-uile, ... The original post was discussing burying the leather for making Scottish targes in order to Cuir Boili ? it. Scotland is rather
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 10, 2007
              Madainn mhath a h-uile,
              --- Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

              > -=-buried leather --- rots-=-
              >
              > It wouldn't if you buried it in the desert, in sand.
              >
              > We can dig stuff up in New Mexico (not in the mountains or in the
              > river valley, but on the llano and mesas and desert, most of the
              > state...) that's not too rotten. Even if you wanted it to rot.
              > Composting takes a while.
              >
              > I don't know about treating leather that way, but y'know how they
              > preserve flowers with sand? Turn the flower upside down in a glass
              > and fill it gently with warm sand? Maybe...
              >
              > Where was this leather supposed to have been allegedly theoretically
              > buried?

              The original post was discussing burying the leather for making
              Scottish targes in order to "Cuir Boili"? it. Scotland is rather
              lacking in the desert-like conditions. I don't know as I've ever heard
              that bit of lore regarding making targes either. But as Capt. Elias
              said buried leather rots. For that matter, any leather not treated to
              withstand moisture that comes in contact with damp conditions tends to
              rot. Or mold at least.

              I get that the purpose was to harden the leather. Maybe the peat does
              something to affect this? Higher tannic acids? Natural vegetable tan?

              My mother had a shoebox of sand from death valley that she used to put
              her pressed flowers in to finish drawing the moisture out of them.
              Seemed to work quite well too.

              -Cainnech



              ____________________________________________________________________________________
              The fish are biting.
              Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.
              http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/sponsoredsearch_v2.php
            • Sandra Dodd
              -=-Scotland. They re kind of short on deserts there.-=- How s the soil in the highlands? In the Holy Grail when Tim the Enchanter is blasting away, that looked
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 10, 2007
                -=-Scotland. They're kind of short on deserts there.-=-

                How's the soil in the highlands?

                In the Holy Grail when Tim the Enchanter is blasting away, that
                looked quite un-bog-like. <g>

                AElflaed

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Sandra Dodd
                -=-For that matter, any leather not treated to withstand moisture that comes in contact with damp conditions tends to rot. Or mold at least. -=- Years ago a
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 10, 2007
                  -=-For that matter, any leather not treated to
                  withstand moisture that comes in contact with damp conditions tends to
                  rot. Or mold at least.
                  -=-

                  Years ago a squire of my lord's moved to Atlantia for a while
                  (military) and when he dumped his full leather armor on the ground
                  and a little dust cloud arose, someone said "Were you storing that in
                  the attic?"

                  He said he had to think a while. New Mexico houses rarely have
                  attics. He said, "No, I was at Grand Outlandish last."

                  Then he said some people suggested he must be very rich to afford
                  leather armor.

                  Here, where leather can last years and years (and years), leather was
                  the cheap armor in those days (and likely to last for years).

                  AElflaed

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • tasha_medvedeva
                  ... It did, didn t it. It also looked remarkably undesertlike to me, given my somewhat limited experience with deserts (The Mojave looked like the surface of
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 10, 2007
                    --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > -=-Scotland. They're kind of short on deserts there.-=-
                    >
                    > How's the soil in the highlands?
                    >
                    > In the Holy Grail when Tim the Enchanter is blasting away, that
                    > looked quite un-bog-like. <g>
                    >
                    > AElflaed

                    It did, didn't it. It also looked remarkably undesertlike to me,
                    given my somewhat limited experience with deserts (The Mojave looked
                    like the surface of Mars, whereas the Kuwaiti desert looked a lot more
                    like what you think of when you imagine deserts, complete with camels).

                    Tasha
                  • borderlands15213
                    ... Tasha s correct. This leather (already on the targe, according to the person I was referring to) was supposedly, allegedly, theoretically buried in
                    Message 9 of 11 , Feb 11, 2007
                      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "tasha_medvedeva"
                      <tasha_medvedeva@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > >> -=-buried leather --- rots-=-
                      > >
                      > > It wouldn't if you buried it in the desert, in sand.
                      > >
                      > {snip}
                      > >
                      > > Where was this leather supposed to have been allegedly theoretically
                      > > buried?
                      > >
                      > > AElflaed
                      > > Outlands
                      >
                      > Scotland. They're kind of short on deserts there.
                      >
                      > Tasha
                      >

                      Tasha's correct. This leather (already on the targe, according to the
                      person I was referring to) was supposedly, allegedly, theoretically
                      buried in Scottish soil.

                      It didn't seem very likely to me that this was the case.

                      I hadn't phrased my question very well, but the person who'd made this
                      claim isn't renowned for either accuracy, conscientiousness, or much
                      of what you'd call an ethical code of conduct, and I was thinking that
                      this list would be my best chance at finding someone who'd heard this,
                      too, or who might be able to support it. The digging I've done on my
                      own (oh, sorry: that's an unintentional pun, but it was hard to avoid)
                      hasn't turned up anything other than "no information," not a word, not
                      a peep, not a murmur; if this business of burying targes to harden the
                      leather were true, *someone* should know about it, other than the one
                      highly dubious source of mine.

                      Thanks to all....

                      Yseult the Gentle
                    • gedney@OPTONLINE.NET
                      I am wondering, do you suppose that this could be the telephone game at work and the original is supposed to be boiled leather , it just got transaudiated
                      Message 10 of 11 , Feb 12, 2007
                        I am wondering, do you suppose that this could be the "telephone game" at work and the original is supposed to be "boiled leather", it just got transaudiated in the retelling?
                        This does work to harden raw leather.

                        Capt Elias


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • borderlands15213
                        ... game at work and the original is supposed to be boiled leather , it just got transaudiated in the retelling? ... That seems entirely plausible and
                        Message 11 of 11 , Feb 12, 2007
                          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, gedney@... wrote:
                          >
                          > I am wondering, do you suppose that this could be the "telephone
                          game" at work and the original is supposed to be "boiled leather", it
                          just got transaudiated in the retelling?
                          > This does work to harden raw leather.
                          >
                          > Capt Elias

                          That seems entirely plausible and entirely reasonable. I'd never
                          thought of it before now, not in conjunction with this. <G> Thank
                          you for this thought.
                          But I do view that particular "source," meaning the individual who'd
                          first told me this, with a jaundiced eye. And I do recall that he
                          claimed the whole targe was buried for a time before being used, but I
                          just can't see it. I'd searched on the 'Net, but found no mention of
                          burying targes for *any* reason. Some references to rawhide, which
                          could be rather hard (but not so hard, in such a damp environment, I
                          should think) as a covering over the wood, but no interment. That was
                          why I asked on this list.

                          Thanks, too, for the vocabulary addition: transaudiated. I like it.

                          Yseult the Gentle
                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.